Talk:Avvakum

Untitled
He was not archpriest, but protopresbyter. See also the orthodox wikipage: 'The term protopresbyter (or protopriest) is equivalent to archpriest in Greek practice, while in Slavic usage, a protopresbyter is a rank separate from and higher than archpriest.'. Maybyse someone could write an article about the term protopresbyter? (as I don't have knowledge of it)--Hardscarf 15:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Avvakum protopop
First of all, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Russian encyclopaedias and Russian Old believers I've discussed it with, it should be Avvakum Petrov, not "Petrovich", which is a modernized version of this historic name.

In Russian Avvakum is called "protopop", which is translated as archpriest. Only the Russian Orthodox church new style has a rank higher than "protopop" (protoierej), which, indeed, is protopresbyter. But the Old Believers' church does not have such a rank, nor had the Russian Chruch before the schism, so Avvakum could therefore have been only protopop. VasilijVasilij 20:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV: Avvakum - executed for heresy?
Stating that a person was executed for heresy is mostly a rather controversial thing to do. Some may think the things a person (in this case Avvakum) stands for are a heresy, some others may not. Who has got the unquestionable authority to decide on what is a heresy and what isn't? It's obvious that one is dealing with a very delicate matter.

I for one am opposed to categories having anything to do with heresies, because one is bound to make subjective and arguable evaluations with which others are bound to disagree. In fact, I think that such categories are irrelevant. Vasilij 17:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he was executed for heresy, thow he quite possibly was not guilty. abakharev 03:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You and I may think what we like, but I still consider calling this or that person a heretic not NPOV. So let's just write an article about Avvakum and REFRAIN from any evaluation. Vasilij 14:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Besides, what you write about Avvakum sounds rather contradictory: either he is a heretic and guilty, or he is not. Furthermore, your statement is just very much your personal opinion, but does not in any way refute my words: ''Stating that a person was executed for heresy is mostly a rather controversial thing to do. Some may think the things a person (in this case Avvakum) stands for are a heresy, some others may not. Who has got the unquestionable authority to decide on what is a heresy and what isn't?'' Vasilij 14:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If somebody was executed for murder does not mean that he commited murder, it means that the sentence has the words murder, if somebody was executed for heresey, it does not mean that he was a heretic it just mean that the authorities at that time considered him as such (see Joan of Arc as an example) abakharev 00:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. -- Ghirla -трёп-  08:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Can one compare murder to heresy? I think it's obvious one can't... By the way, could any one please give a tight defenition of "heresy"? At the moment, we've got a rather strange situation, in which a category "people exectuted for heresy" exists, but no one took the trouble of explaining what the term "heresy" actually means; there isn't even an article on this subject! If this will be done, a new discussion will unboubtedly arise: some may disagree with the defenition of "heresy" and some will say, referring to that defenition, that it's even more inappropriate to link a certain person with heresy.

Just a consideration: to loyal Roman Catholics, Martin Luther might very well be a heretic, but should this be reason enough to connect hem in Wikipedia to heresy? Just because some one (be it state authorities, be it church officials) at some time considered him to be one? I did find something about Heretics, however. It states: In theology, heresy is the holding of a belief that is in fundamental disagreement with the established teachings or doctrines of an organized religion. Unfortunately, this does not apply to Avvakum, because the principles he defended were - even from an objective point of view - not "in fundamental disagreement" with the teachings of Eastern Orthodoxy. He was rather executed for disobedience than for heresy.

Alex, I understand your arguments and I even tend to agree, but it still remains tricky business. -Vasilij 07:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A disclaimer is needed in the category "people executed for heresy", as in the category "Heretics". That would be more appropriate. -Vasilij 07:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Be bold and add such a disclaimer. -- Ghirla -трёп-  08:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I put the disclaimer Vasilij asked. abakharev 09:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well done! Still I would like one thing to add: many seem to treat the term "heresy" from a strictly historical point of view, but, first of all, heresy is a religious and theological conception and thus being above historical limits in time. Some may think the very word is old-fashioned, but against a religious background the term may prove still to be a most actual topic. -Vasilij 09:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Avvakum vs Abbacum
Avvakum is much more used in English scholarship. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&c2coff=1&safe=off&q=Avvakum&spell=1 gives 330 hits, while http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Abbacum&btnG=Search gives none and http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=Abbakum&btnG=Search gives one unrelated. imilarly http://www.google.com.au/books?lr=&q=Avvakum&btnG=Search+Books&as_brr=0 gives 1320 hits, while http://www.google.com.au/books?lr=&q=Abbacum&btnG=Search+Books&as_brr=0 yeilds 35 (mostly intelated). Thus, I have returned the title to Avvakum abakharev 02:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Nikon reformed theology?
This seems inaccurate, it seems all he reformed were liturgical practices. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.234.177.143 (talk) 03:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)