Talk:Awan (tribe)

Awans are 100% Indo-Europeans
In recent times, there have been several large scale DNA tests of various Pakistani races/tribes; and I have read some papers that are of quite reliable provenance, that seem to prove that Awans are 100% of Indo-European origins. Mithocondrial DNA testing has shown with over 80% accuracy rates that the Awans are closely related to a number of Rajput and other indigenous South Asian tribes in Northern Punjab and nearby regions. The fact that some tribes converted totally and some partially to Islam at a certain time has nothing to do with the genetic factors. There are several old Hindu tribes that converted entirely and are all Muslims today eg Jhodras, Ghebas, Noons, Arains, Dhond-Abbasis, Karlals, Bambas etc ; whereas there are others that are mostly Muslims in Pakistan area now with some smaller non-Muslim populations in India -such as Tiwanas, Khattars, Tarars and so on. I shall try to dig out the DNA based research articles and share here for everyone's edification. I strongly believe we should all forget about these fake claims (due to our continued complexes about our old /true origins after accepting Islam) and take pride that we are who we are, in fact , and that our elders did accept the truth of Islam centuries ago. (Hamid Ali Awan, Havelian, NW Pakistan)

Jat Origins Reference from British Gazetteer - not allowed ?
The book reference ultimately refers to a British Gazetteer, which to my understanding are not allowed to be included in the Wikipedia articles.

Khan, Sabir Badal (2013). Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore: Two Essays on Baloch History and Folklore. Università di Napoli, "l'Orientale". p. 40.

Verbatim:

''"Similarly, the Awans, said to be of Jat origin (Attock District Gazetteer 1932: 82), claim Arab origins having descended from Ali, the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad, from a wife other Fatima...."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8N1JCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA40&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false QutbShah (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Why is it not? RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * My understanding is the British Colonial sources are not allowed on Wikipedia, which this book is referring to. Awans are definitely not of Jat origin instead the Colonial author maybe confusing the common term for a farmer, which is also Jat. QutbShah (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I dont think there is much good reason to have listed them as Punjabi muslims in the opening body
So an edit was added claiming that Awan are a Punjabi Muslim tribe at the very start. I dont think this is a good idea, it doesnt really help to simplify the tribe to new readers, just confusing since this people group dont even identify themselves as Punjabis and some of the people follow other cultures too, like Pashtuns, Qizilbash, Tajik cultures in Peshawar. The opening body already tells you they are settled in the West Punjab region. That shouldve been and has been enough detail for the reader.

It feels misleading and this has only ever been a recent (ONLINE) phenomenon of identifying Awans as a Branch of Punjabi identity. This isnt something meant to be added to Wikipedia. It is not in the place for Wikipedia editors to assign an identity to them for the sake of simplifying or just for the sake of giving it an ethnicity. Leave it as is instead of adding "Punjabi Muslim". RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 05:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)


 * You need to read WP:NOR. It's properly sourced. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you tell me why this is properly sourced? RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think I quite understand what you mean. If you mean where it is sourced, there are two citations in the very first line. Sutyarashi (talk) 10:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For the second source, maybe you could point out what its saying because I only found that it only says Awans are a people group of Punjab.
 * The second source doesnt really help much, its a dictionary on American surnames which isnt in much capacity to declare it as a Punjabi tribe. Awans are mostly people from Punjab, thats really the only conclusion we can have from that source. Awans are not on par with something like Jats or Arain people. Why are the Awan an ethnic Punjabi tribe if they dont even exist in East Punjab? No source gives any definitive origin of Awan people so there isnt good reason to use this wording, "Punjabi tribe" for it.
 * Unreliable British writers write about them having possibly Jat origin thats it. I havent seen any good reason to call it a Punjabi tribe it is MISLEADING. RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 11:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's what The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab 1849–1947 states: Consequently, socially dominant Muslim tribes such as the Gakkhars, Janjuas and Awans, and a few Rajput tribes, concentrated in the Rawalpindi and Jhelum districts in the northern Salt Range tract in the Punjab, accounted for more than ninety per cent of Punjabi Muslim recruits.
 * If you believe a source from Oxford University Press is unreliable then you can take it to RSN. Rest is, again, your speculation and original research, backed by nothing and really not much of an argument. Please avoid it. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe". And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately. Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such. RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 13:52, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not a Punjabi tribe. A "Muslim tribe".
 * Read the whole quote, not just first part.
 * And for the American surname source, it does not back what you are saying adequately.
 * No it very much does. Go through it again.
 * Awans arent a tribe of Punjabi identity and arent really considered as such.
 * I will not bother replying if you're only going to make unsubstantiated claims. That's unhelpful and not how Wikipedia works. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing theres no relation. An Awan person can be considered Punjabi but thats because that person would be from Punjab. An Awan from Peshawar or elsewhere north-west is not going to be identified as Punjabi. Seemingly use of the term Punjabi tribe is a geographic designation. Like I said before, a Jat or Arain is a Punjabi while no one in East Punjab knows what an Awan is. When did they become a Punjabi people? RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 16:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you want to ask Pakistani/Punjab topic editors about it? Does Awan = Punjabi? RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 14:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You do have a point ,idk how or when it’s been considered to be linked to one specific peaple Nebula1321 (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

You have been here for a year, but I don't think you properly understand WP:GUIDELINES. The sources for Punjabi ethnicity are reliable and verifiable; you'd need equally reliable sources to prove them Pashtuns or whatever you think they are. Your personal observations about them, while may not be entirely untrue, mean nothing, and same holds true for Pakistani/Punjab topic editors, as it is original research while Wikipedia is based upon what RS state. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Its just logical thought. No one in the world can surely comment on if the Awans are Jats or a large tribe of Sayyid/Arab origin, but I'm saying Wikipedia shouldnt declare it to belong to one and that the original wording is better, even if the ethnicity is unknown because it just is. It is not in the place for an american family name dictionary book to declare the tribe as Punjabi or the vague British source because it can just be considered a geographic/language designation, Awan people dont even entirely live in Punjab but in northern Pakistan too like Hazara or Peshawar, even speaking Persian or Pashto.
 * Does Awan = Punjabi? Is it really proven that Awans are historically a Punjabi tribe just like a Cheema or Chattha is? Not sure if this is relevant to mention but Awan people dont really consider themselves as Punjabi.
 * Awans that live in Punjab are eligible for Punjabi identity but I cant see how they can be declared as a whole to be a tribe of it. RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I hate to repeat myself again, but that's all original research. Have you any source backing up what you say? Sutyarashi (talk) 17:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with him and I also  think it should have the Punjabi tribe removed as that’s the most logical thing to do since they don’t even consider themselves it aswell Nebula1321 (talk) 17:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * He has got a point though and btw there is a lot of fake awan out there Nebula1321 (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well most will agree with you anyway on this, and this is people that I have spoken to and know who are from Awan tribe especially The ones from  kpk
 * I mean they even look different or if anything look like the peaple from that specific region Nebula1321 (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not fair to list Awans as punjabi muslims...
dear u have wrote in the article with headline about Awans as Punjabi muslims which is not fair...listing them as punjabi is much more blurry than listing them as Pashtun or arab...i could not understand the criteria by which a rqce is recognized in such websites...pashtuns living in punjab remain pashtun, baloch remain baloch then why such discriminatory while mentioning Awans as punjabis rather than pashtuns or arabs...so plz remove this term punjabi from the article..furthermore Awan is not a punjabi word it is an arabic word which means Helper...plz change that mistake... 137.59.220.64 (talk) 04:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

DNA report regarding Awan tribe...
dear hazara University has performed the DNA research of the tribes living in kpk including Awans...result of their research confirmed the whole tribe claims of arab descent is true and they close to Syeds..and haplogroup T1 originated in israel is found in Awans only...in this advance period of science such proofs can not be denied...so look into the matter and change that misleading ethnicity of Awan tribe. Malikkhel (talk) 05:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2024
I need to edit this some parts of its are wrong, On the right side you didnt write Awan is Present in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa instead wrote sindh which is inaccurate 2001:8003:3E2C:BB00:6C7C:1869:F712:D1B (talk) 20:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tantomile (talk) 05:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not a "Punjabi tribe"
I just noticed that an edit has been made to this article in the opening paragraph where it says that Awan is a "Punjabi tribe" - "originating from Punjab region". There is no proper source to claim anyone of these two claims (there can not be because its not realistically true). The two sources provided do NOT say that the tribe originated from Punjab region or is ethnically from Punjabi group of people. One source say that they were being recruited in British army back in the day when British were recruiting from the Punjab region, there is no mention of the tribe's ethnicity or origin there. The second source is simply a derivative dictionary which can not be used as a primary source (see WP:DICTS).

Awan tribe's affiliation with any ethnolinguistic group of people is not at all defined by reliable historians and those who do affiliate them say they're "people of Arab origin who speak Awankari (distinguished tribal language)", which in itself is extremely broad and vague of a definition.

The article should be restored to previous version where it said that the tribe "resides" predominantly in Punjab, Khyber and Azad Kashmir. That is more correct and better. If there is really a need to mention the ethnicity and origin of the tribe than do mention the correct one which is that "Awan is an Arab tribe, closely related to Sayyids, predominantly living in Punjab, Khyber and Azad Kashmir ... ".

--Greentree0 (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC) Greentree0 (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I've agreed on this for a while. This is not a sourced addition to have written "Punjabi tribe". It is a known "odd one out" when this is listed alongside Cheema, Arain and Chattha which anyone in the Pakistan topic area would know. There would be plenty sources calling it Arab and the few cherry picked sourced used to try demonstrate it as a "punjabi tribe" just dont support the claim. RevolutionaryPatriot (talk) 14:00, 16 July 2024 (UTC)