Talk:Awan (tribe)/Archive 3

Shajra e Nasab
SHAJRAH E NASAB OF AOWN QUTAB SHAH WHO IS FROM HAZRAT ABBASS(R.A):' Awon Qutab Shah. Qasim Ali Yallah. Hazrat Hamza Alvi. Hazrat Tayyar Alvi. Hazrat Qasim Alvi. Hazrat Ali Alvi. Hazrat Jaffar Alvi. Hazrat Hamza Awal. Hazrat Hassan. Hazrat Abdullah. Hazrat Abbas Alamdar R A. Hazrat Ali Sher-e-Khuda R A. SHAJRAH E NASAB OF QUTAB HAIDER SHAH WHO IS FROM MUHAMMAD IBN HANAFIYA(R.A):Bold text Qutab haider shah ghazi. Attaullah ghazi. Tahir ghazi. Tayab ghazi. Muhammad ghazi. Umer ghazi. Asif ghazi. Battal ghazi. Abdul manan ghazi. Aon sikandar ghazi. Hazrat Imam muhammad ibn hanafiya. Hazrat Ali(R.A) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.153.148.127 (talk) 14:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to Zarrigul, The homeland and cultural hotbed of Awan
The user Rawalpindi Express is an urbane gentleman of London belonging to a noble family of Awan, and his good upbringing in London, his higher education of University of London has made his language highly civilized, which you cannot understand and therefore consequently he cannot make you understand. I am a rough hillman and a wild mountaineer of Salt Range, and as the blood of Arab Bedouins flows through my veins, I can make you understand in the pure language of real Awans of today, but as this is a discussion page of Wikipedia, I’ll tell you in the language of Wikipedia.

To start with, what is our subject? Awan. What is “Awan” ?, Awan is a name of a tribe. What is a tribe? , the word ‘tribe’ means a community of blood. The more compact the community, the more compact the tribe. Where can we find this compact community? We can find it in the mainhomeland of this tribe.

The main homeland and cultural hotbed of real and original Awan tribe is not Pindi Gheb, Attock. Sargodha, Chakwal, and other districts but Salt Range. The more center of Salt Range you will go, the more real Awan as a blood of community, you will find. I’ll discuss the nature and authenticity of British administrators, writers, census reports, Imperial Gazetteer, District Gazetteers, later on, here are some reliable source material for Wikipedia policy, so;

“They are essentially a tribe of the Salt Range, where they once held independent possessions of very considerable extent, and in the western and central portions of which they are still the dominant race.” (The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol. 7, p. 170), "The home of the Awan in the Panjab is the Salt Range", The Panjab, North-West Frontier Province and Kashmir - James Douie Page 105. "The best of the Musalman tribes comes from thje Salt range".The Armies of India By A. C. Lovett, Major, Gf Macmunn, Page 141 "Salt Range was the main habitat of Awans". History of the Sikh gurus: a comprehensive study by Surjit Singh Gandhi p.2.

"They settled about 1035, AD in the Peshawar district, and eventually became possessed of the Salt Range country." A short history of the Sikhs by Charles Herbert Payne - 1970, p.234

Awans are said to have settled in the mountains in the centre of what is now Soon Valley and Sakesar, Salt Range. Later on some of them withdrew to neighbourhood of Salt Range. They occupied more prosperous plains and open plateaux. Some of them withdrew to west of Salt Range and setteled at Kalabh. (The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol. 14, P290 ) Some of them withdrew to North and settled and founded a town Talagang. According to the Imperial Gazetteer of India, (The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol. 08, P162) it was founded by an Awan chieftain, about the year 1625. It has ever since remained the seat of local administration under the Awans, the Sikh, and the British. One branch of the tribe withdrew to the east of Salt Range near Jehlum.(The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol. 07, P170) Other branch withdrew to the south of the range and settled at the north of Shahpur. With the passage of time and the force of economic pressure, they then spread from that region into Mianwali, Chakwal, Camelpur now Attock, Mianwali, Jehlum, Sargodha, Rawalpindi, lahore Gujrat and all parts of Punjab.

So far as the Awan of Jalandhar are concerned, Ibbetson, D states in his book Punjab Castes, that the Awans of Jalandhar  claimed that their ancestors served in the armies of the Slave Dynasty and the Khilji dynasty during the Delhi Sultanate period, who brought them from the Salt-range.(“The Jalandhar Awans state that they came into that district as followers of one of the early Emperors of Delhi who brought them with him from the Salt-range; and it is not impossible that they may have accompanied the forces of Babur. Many of them were in former times in the imperial service at Delhi, keeping up at the same time their connection with their Jalandhar homes.” Ibbetson, D., 2001, Punjab Castes, Sang-e-Meel Publications, p.170.)

So, instead of giving advice to Rawalpindi Express, to go to Kalabagh, (I’ll discuss the Awans of Kalabagh later on) Please go yourself to center of Salt range and capital of Soon Valley, "Naushera" (of which Sir Lepel Henry Griffin, writes in his book "Chiefs of Punjab", that "In.... Naoshera (Naushera) .... where the head of the tribe still resides.") Khabeki, Kufri, Kund, Murdwal, Uchala, Sodhi, Khewra, Anga, you will find the real Awans and their customs, and traditions.

There you will find that the whole structure of the tribe stands on the tribal genealogies of the Awans of this area, and the divisions of their sub clans by adding the suffix ‘al’ to the names of their ancestors, e.g., Khairal, “Sons of ‘Khair Muhammad’, Latifal, ‘sons of Muhammad Latif, etc. Every Awan is recognized by his ‘Mahala’ street named after his great ancestor plus suffix ‘al’. Mahala Mehral, named after Meher Ali. Every Awan of Naushera of Salt Range knows that he is a descendant of Hazrat Qutb Shah Awn ibn Ya‘lā through his grandson Hazrat Ahmad Ali Badr ud Din’ elder son Hazrat Saned ul Ulema, and he also knows that his distant cousins of Khabeki are desendants of Badr ud Din’ other son Hazrat Toor, and so on. A complete family tree of whole branch of Awans of Khabeki has been given in this small book. To quote your favorite author Sir Olif caroe, "These tribal tables, or shajras as they are called in Islamic lore, do represent something real. They in fact reflect what these tribes themselves still believe to be their origin and cousinship, one to another, and they sort out and categorize racial, and other affinities and differences which can be traced today"

Instead of seeing you tube videos of marriages of Maliks of other districts, go and visit the marriage ceremony of real Awans of Salt Range, there you will find that  the marriages  are still arranged according to the Islamic traditions and wedding ceremony usually takes place at the mosques. Being as a tribe of Arabs origin, the local people follows Islamic culture and traditions. Unlike the other parts of Punjab where most people follow the Indian form of the marriage ceremony. So there is no concept of dance of any kind in pure and noble families of Awan.

To be continued Averroist (talk) 23:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Averriost you tried well but no successful. I have been there and i know the culture and languges of Pakistan. May be you don't hadve chance to attend a marriage so i paste few links from the area you mentioned without culture.

Soon valley Dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMw2PgNjJfA&feature=related

Padrahr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5jN73tzBOg&feature=related

Khushab music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gXwgq886CE Khattak Jhomer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eg1wyrePJI Awans from Mianwali http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK6wd7wuFwg&feature=related Zarrigul (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Now you check this culture resembles with pashtuns and Baluch's or Sikhs? It is perfect time that you go to soon valley to see the real culture of Awans. Regards zarrigul


 * Thanks,Dear Zarrigul, for your polite comments, despite my rude behaviour. I didnt finish my arguments. I wrote that "So there is no concept of dance of any kind in pure and noble families of Awan." It is better to read some good books, than to see the dance. Please read "Tarikh Mushaikh Chesht" A history of Sufis (saints) of Chisti order. Do You know who was Khawaja Shams ud din Sialvi of Sial Sharif. Pir Meher Ali Shah, Pir Jalalpur Sharif and all other leading Pirs of Punjab were his disciples. You can imagine the greatness of his derbar. He was also an Awan and he used to conduct Qawwali and Sama, when Qazi Sultan Mahmood of Anga came to know, he was angry and forbade the use of sufi music, and it was the greatness of Khawaja Shams ud din Sialvi who respected the Qazi. Similarly, Qazi Mian Muhammad of Naushera also forbade sufi music. If this is the position of great sufis, what is the position of ordinary true Awan.


 * With regard to your comments, "May be you don't hadve chance to attend a marriage so i paste few links from the area you mentioned" it is humbly stated that, we the noble Awans do not make videos of our marriages, and even cannot think of uploading on internet. Salam Averroist (talk) 22:20, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Salam. Strange to see diviion of Awan's into "nobles" and "Kammi".It is really heart breaking. If you forgive me for my straight farwardness. Is it not hypocratic and rascist statement? Music you consider unislamic but you forget islamic teaching of equal rights for every one. considering few people as noble and others inferior is not unislamic? Every Army Soldier have to perform drill on drum beats while brass band play it's tunes what about that? Our folk dances are merely a kind of martial arts and the way of physical excercises and mostly per war muscle excercise. if you like i can tell you ludi, ghummer, dhress, sammi or barballa and Bhangra helps to strengthen which part of body and better in result as compare to a gym. i was expecting you let us know whether Awan's of your area hve the following customs : 1.to break choonrri with right leg and of "gharroli" during weddings? 2.to put a latern st night on place (40 days) where a person of family lasts its breaths. 3.to through blood on doors for some occassions. 4.to through blood on vehical tires when it take dead body to village? 5.to through water towards house "parnala" on saturday evening

regards Zarrigul (talk) 06:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I did not use the word 'Kammi', and there are no kammis in Awans of Salt Range, because the nature of land in this area is "Barani". You claim that you know the languages and culture of this area. So far as noble are concerned, the concept is different in various socities. The nobles of ancient Rome took pride in fighting war, but the nobles of India, Berhaman, gave this job to the inferior class. Similarly the nobles of Europe feel no hesitation in dance, but the Muslim nobility of India considers this as a great shame.


 * So far as the nobility of Awans of Salt Range is concerned, a poor Awan of Khabeki is a noble AWAN if his name is included in the detailed tribal Genealogical table of Awans of Khabeki, and a poor Awan of Kufri is also a noble if the name of his great great grand father is mentioned in Land Revenue Settlements. Though reduced to poverty,  the descendants of great Awans are still respected as a native nobility and aristocracy. I consider these poor Awans as noble Awans, as compare to rich new Awans, who make videos of dance and then upload to youtube.

Averroist (talk) 10:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I am waiting the hear from you for location of salt range.(from where it start and where it ends). We are in 21st century and Today every young boy is keeping color mobile with camera. so making videos of marriages become common how ever still no one let others to picturize females. Zarrigul (talk) 14:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Good, it is better that you should measure your own area, so far as my area is concerned, the Salt Range extends from the Jhelum River to the Indus, across the northern portion of the Punjab province. Please click this link In this link you will note that Khushab is almost south of center of Salt Range. Now click this link and please see which are the towns and villages in the Salt Range. Cheers

Averroist (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

@Averroist some problem with your information. Salt Range Starts From Khewrra Tehsil Pind dadan khan District Jehlum and mine here is considered biggest of the salt mines of the world. It moves from east towards west when it reach dirstrict khushab limits, turn toward north west. Indus river have divided salt range in 2 parts (east and west). West part ends at Banda Daud Shah District Karak. http://paleopolis.rediris.es/cg/CG2009_BOOK_03/CG2009_BOOK_03_Chapter06.pdf As Salt range extends east to west so how to mark it limits towards north and south ? if we just consider the mine then khushab is at far south of mine and to implement this rule we have to extend the equal  miles in north direction. Another question that salt range is physically shared by Janjua(khewrra), Awan, Niazi and khattak tribes. So to consider salt range to a  one tribe would be incorrect. Khewrra and Danda Daud shah mine information is available on net for confirmation. Alamsherkhan (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to claim of Hashmi origin
claim of Arab origin starts geting attention during colonial rule( which is difficult to verify from old history books) but laterly got multiplied and used by other historians as evidence. This baseless claim have a lot of contradictions (for meaning of title, appoinment as governor of Herat, marriage with Ghaznavi sister, 2-3 fake family tree which even nullify each other.The theory that all Awan's are decendants of Qutab Shah is worst form of exaggeration. Today Awan population is exceeding 4 Million. If we apply same growth rate for other communities of the region that make a different picture of world population in year when Ghanavi was preparing his first offensive to India. How to believe that population of Khorasan including Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Qazikistan, kyrghistan and Uzbikistan was less than 300 count of head. then from where he arranged his army? if we apply the same growth rate for Pashtun and Baluch who came alongwith Awan's then today Baluch of Pakistan are succesors of 20 Soldiers and Pashtun living at Pakistan are Successors of 70 Soldier. This seems a miracle that 100 soldiers (10+20+70) successfully kept the control on newly occupied areas for a century or more till Muhammad of Ghaur conquest. Awan's are still keeping a lot of living evidences in their customs which does not show resemblance with Arab culture. Awan's living in different parts of Punjab and KPK have wedding customs like breaking "choonrri" (like soccer made of mud, mostly it is used to cover water pot) by leg in wedding. "Gharoli", "Rangoli" keeping lattern at a place where some one have his last breath, throughing blood at door step at different occasions. another evidence which proves that Awan's are not of Arab origin as they kept their preIslamic names till 20th century. Quraish origin conspirency is also used for baluch and Pashtuns tribes (as some sources claim that Pashtun's successors of Hazrat Khalid bin walid which is not correct).

A lot of families living in Pakistan claim to be "Sayyed" but for many matters there are different fom Awan's for the following reasons:- 1. Sayyed's dont marry their daughters to non Sayyeds but Awan's dont follow this practice 2. Sayyed Female usually strict for Parda and dont take active part in the family financial affairs in the past but Awan female are active earning partners of family in agriculture and live stock. 3. Non of a Sayyed family have this much major population in the area like Awan have. 4. "Sayyed" mostly focused to work as preacher/religious leaders/Saints but Awan's in  majority chose to survive as Soldiers/agriculture workers.

Awan's Migration from Afghansinstan is almost agreed by majority of Historians. In such case sure they may be having cousin tribes at Afghanistan.Similarly as Niazi's, and Baluch have their cousin tribes at Afghanistan. Most of the Historians used ending name of Qutab Shah as evidence for his Hashmi origin but Shah was common ending name among persians, Khorasanians (Today Afghanistan)and Turks. like we find family od Shahhan e- Kabal in pre-Islam History. So ending name is not a valid logic to prove them Hashmi

Awan's living any where at Pakistan speaks Hindko. In all the district where they are in majority their dialect is same. They still keep some of the words from their original language which other punjabi speaking tribes dont use, like prayer timings Paishe, deegar ,shami, Kuftaan. I was surprised to see the Muslims of chinese origin from Gansu Province using these words like, paishen, jeegar, shamo, and Kuften. these four prayer timing in Pashtun also spoken a bit similar like maz-pashen, maz-deegar , Ma-shom and Mas-khoten. Mas/maz seems derived from nmaz (prayer) which got added by Pashtuns. Pashtuns and Awans pres-Islamic names are same like Faqir khan, Sher khan, Fateh khan etc , their customs/culture are same. It does not support the common Believe that persian was the spoken language of Awan's before migration another link which got missed by historians in the past. Because most of muslim tribe came to india with sultan Muhammad Ghori so without any research they were made to write as natives of Ghore. At Faryab province of Afghanistan there is district Indkai which seems to be place of origin of Awan's before migration to today's Pakistan. Pashtuns who migretted alongwith Awan's call them indki or indkai. which mostly ae mis-spelled with Hindki or Hindko by historians which make a confusion. Comments in article by Special:Contributions/Zarrigul moved to article talk page. --Shirt58 (talk) 12:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

The story of Arab/ Hashmi origin circles around Qutab Shah or Qutab Haider. Who said to got married with sister of Sultan Mehmood. Whereas commonly It is difficult for a soldier to get marry with king's daughter or Sister. A known military leader could have access to the family of King and some timeit is required to strengthen the rule. Furthermore keeping in view of Ghaznavi's  religious  behaviour to Ismaili Shia Sect,  it seems impossible. The perception  that Qutab Haider being common soldier got overlooked by Historians seems baseless when we find that Abu Hasan Mamun from khewarzm married  Ghaznavi's sister during year 1015. Still there are a lot of Issues regarding Qutab shah and Qutab Haider to discuss. if they both came with Mehmood ghaznavi then why their population today dont show equal to each other? another important point to keep in mind that what time they arrived Herat? Exactly when Mehmood was preparing his army to invade India or they got settled at Herat long time ago. if they were living at Herat Since a long then their population at Afghanistan must 3-4 times or much more as compare to Awan's populations at Pakistan. This story never convinced me and I feel that Qutab Shah or Qutab Haider is a character of purposely implanted story. I totally agree with Mr. Zarri Gul Calulations I can't Imagin that a country with total population of 180 human being were needing 30,000 camels to invade and conquer a country having total population of 3290 Human being? No way but we have to accept that there is something wrong with story of Qutab Shah/ Qutab Haider and 30,000 Camels as well.

History is silent regarding thousands of Soldiers(prisnor of War) who Mehmood Ghaznavi take to Afghanistan as slaves. Whether they converted to Islam or got adopted in Afghan tribes and if we apply the same growth rate on prisoners of war turned salves what pictures comes out? .

Alamsherkhan (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Awan and King Babur
Alamsherkhan (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)King Babur's Safer nama seems to be the oldest evidence  so far discussed on this forum. King Babur at any place don't mention the word “Awan “ but mentioned them as Maliks (younger brothers of chieftains). Safer Nama of Mughal King Babur mention the following 18 names while discussing the conquest of Bhera and Nilab. (Raja Sahib Khan, Malik Bir Khan, Hathi Khan, Langer Khan, Malik Hast, Tatar Khan, Babu Khan, Dawlat Khan, Beg Muhammad Moghul, Qoch Beg, Dost Beg, Amin-Muhammad, Tarkhan, Arghun, Qaracha, uruq. Kahar)  and Muhammad-Ali Jang-Jang’s 10 out of 18 belong to his army and non of 8 locals have Islamic name but their names match with Pashtun names. Which again proves that upto 15th century local Muslims were not used to have Muslim names and this nullify the claim of Arab origin "Text form BabeUr's travel memories (Safer Nama Babur"The Medieval Gakhars and BaburFrom the Baburnama (The Memoirs of Babur), his chapter "Recent History of Bhera", in 1519 Babur noted: "There were the Jats, the Gujjars, and many other peoples living in the mountains between the Nilab and Bhera (in Jhelum district), which are connected to the mountains of Kashmir. Their rulers and chieftains belong to the Gakhar clan whose chieftain ship is like that of the Jud[disambiguation needed] and Janjua."

It was worth noting that up to this point, the Gakhars and Janjua Rajputs had engaged in a never ending battle for sovereignty over the Salt Range.

“ The history of this region (the Salt Range) from the thirteenth century onward had been a sickening record of wars between the Janjuhas and the Gakkhars for political ascendancy ” —Advanced History of Medieval India[2]

However, the alliance of Raja Sahib Khan (Janjua overlord) and Malik Bir Khan Gakhar, saw a period of peace between the two tribes (both being visionary princes, and with a legendary friendship of treating each other as half brothers).[3] This was later abruptly ended upon the ascension of Hathi Khan Gakhar as the leader of the Gakhar tribe, who assassinated Malik Hast Janjua's father, thereby reawakening the old feud between the two warrior clans.

Of the Jud and Janjua, Babur noted: "Seven kos from Bhera to the north, there is a hill. This hill, in the Zafer-nāmeh and some other books, is called the hill of Jūd. At first I was ignorant of the origin of its name, but afterwards discovered that in this hill there were two races of men descended of the same father. One tribe is called Jūd, the other Janjūa. From old times, they have been the rulers and lords of the inhabitants of this hill, and of the tribes and clans which are between Nilāb and Bhera; but their power is exerted in a friendly and brotherly way. They cannot take from them whatever they please. They take as their share a portion that has been fixed from very remote times. The one never takes, and the others never give, a single grain more or less. Their agreement is as follows: They give a shahrokhi for each head of cattle; seven shahrokhis are paid by each master of a family, and they serve in their armies. The Jūd are divided into various branches or families, as well as the Janjūa. This hill, which lies within seven kos of Bhera, branching off from the hill-country of Kashmīr, which belongs to the same range as Hindū-kūsh, takes a south-westerly direction, and terminates below Dīnkot, on the river Sind. On the one half of this hill are the Jūd, and on the other the Janjūa. This hill got the name of Jūd from a supposed resemblance to the celebrated hill of Jūd. The chief man among them gets the name of Rai. His younger brothers and sons are called Malik. These Janjūa were the maternal uncles of Langer Khan. The name of the ruler of the clans and tribes in the neighbourhood of the river Sohān was Malik Hast. His original name was Asad, but as the people of Hindustān often drop the vowels, calling, for instance, khabar, khabr, and asad, asd, this word, going on from one corruption to another, ended in becoming Hast. Immediately on reaching our ground I sent Langer Khan in order to bring in Malik Hast. He galloped off, and by impressing him with a persuasion of my generosity and favourable intentions in his behalf, returned, accompanied by him, about bed-time prayers. Malik Hast brought a mail-clad horse with him and made his submission. He was about the twenty-second or twenty-third year of his age."

Concerning the Gakhar clan, Babur goes on to say: "At that time (1519), the chieftains of the peoples on the mountainsides were two cousins, Tatar Khan and Hati "Elephant" Gakhar. Their strongholds were the ravines and cliffs. Tatar's seat was Pharwala, which is way below the snow-covered mountains. Hati, whose territory was adjacent to the mountains, had gained dominance over Kalinjar, which belonged to Babu Khan of Bisut. Tatar Khan had seen Dawlat Khan and owed him total allegiance; Hati, however, had not seen him and maintained a rebellious attitude towards him. With the advice and agreement of the Hindustan Begs, Tatar had gone and camped at a distance as though to lay siege to Hati. While we were in Bhera, Hati seized upon some pretext to make a surprise attack on Tatar, kill him, and lay hands on his territory, his wives, and everything he had."

In the case of both the Janjua and the Gakhar clans in the Medieval period, Babur paints a clear picture of heavily armed warrior elites living off the tribute of many acquiescent villages and in turn paying reluctant homage to their Turko-Mongol overlords.

What follows is Babur's vivid account of his attack on Hati Gakhar at the fortress of Pharwala: "Those who knew the lay of the land hereabouts, especially the Janjua, who were old enemies of the Gakhar, reported that Hati Gakhar had recently turned outlaw. He was engaging in highway robbery and bringing ruination upon the people. It was necessary to do something to drive him from the area or else to teach him a good lesson. In agreement with them, the next morning we assigned Khwaja Mirmiran and Mirim Nasir to the camp and left the camp at mid-morning to ride to Pharwala against Hati Gakhar, who had killed Tatar a few days before and taken over Pharwala, as has been mentioned. We stopped in the late afternoon, fed the horses, and rode off by night. Our guide was a servant of Malik Hast’s, Surpa by name. We cleared the road and stopped near dawn. Beg Muhammad Moghul was sent back to camp. As it was becoming light we mounted, and at midmorning we put on our armour and charged. With one league left to go, we could see the outline of Pharwala. Off we galloped. The right wing went to the east of Pharwala. Qoch Beg, who was with the right wing, was sent to reinforce its rear. The men of the left wing and centre were pouring down on Pharwala. Dost Beg was directed to support the rear of the left wing, which was also attacking. Pharwala, situated among ravines, has two roads. The one to the southeast—the road by which we were traveling—is atop the ravines and is surrounded by ravines and gullies on both sides. Half a kos from Pharwala, the road becomes such that in four or five places before reaching the gate the ravines are so precipitous that it is necessary to ride single file the distance of an arrow shot. The other road to Pharwala is to the northwest and leads through a wide valley. It too is precarious, and there is no other road on any side. Although it has no ramparts or battlements, there is no place to bring force to bear either. All around are ravines seven, eight, or ten yards straight down. The men farthest forward in the left wing passed through the narrows and gathered at the gate. Hati drove back the attackers with thirty to forty armed horsemen and many foot soldiers. When Dost Beg, who was reinforcing the rear of the attackers, arrived, he brought a lot of force to bear, unhorsed many men, and defeated the foe. Hati Gakhar was renowned in those parts for his valour, but regardless of how well he fought he could not maintain his stand and was forced to retreat. He was unable to hold the narrows, and when he made it to the fortress, he could not make it fast either. The attackers poured into the fortress behind him and ran through it to the narrow ravine on the northwest, but Hati got out and fled unencumbered. Here Dost Beg performed a good action and received the fiuldu. Meanwhile I entered the fortress and dismounted at Tatar’s quarters. Some of those who had been assigned to stay with me while the attack was launched had nevertheless gone on to join the fray. Among them were Amin-Muhammad Tarkhan Arghun and Qaracha, who for their disobedience were attached to the Gujar guide, Surpa and sent into the wilderness without their cloaks to meet the camp. The next morning we got across the northwest ravine and camped in a grain field. Wali KhizanachI was assigned a few valiant warriors and sent to meet the camp. On Thursday the fifteenth [March 17] we marched out and stopped at Anderana on the banks of the Sohan. [231] Long ago the Anderana fortress had belonged to Malik Hast’s father, but after Hati Gakhar killed Hast’s father, it fell to ruins, which was its condition when we found it. That night, the part of the camp that had been detached at Kalda Kahar arrived and joined us. After Hati took Tatar, he sent his relative Parbat to me with a mail clad horse and gifts. Before catching up with me, Parbart encountered the men of the camp who had stayed behind and came along with the uruq to present his gifts and pay homage. Langar Khan also came with the uruq on several matters of business, and when finished, he and some local people were given leave to depart for Bhera. Marching on and crossing the Sohan, we stopped on a hill. Parbat was given a robe of honour, and Muhammad-Ali Jang-Jang’s servant was sent to Hati with letters of appeasement.

Alamsherkhan (talk) 23:39, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Awan as a branch Clan of Pashtun's
I have analyze the different theories unearthing some new facts which got ignored by the historians in the past. Theory of Hashmi origin. 1.	conspiracy of Awan Hashmiyat origin,   is almost unfairly used by historians. Shah is common ending name of even  Turks, Pashtun’s and Awan’s, like Mehboob Shah , Sher Shah , Shah Wali or Shah Baig Etc but ending name Shah does not make them Hashmi. . Pashtun's, Awan.s and people of Xinjiang China still keep pre Islamic Names like Alam Khan, Faqir Khan , Sher Khan, Fateh Khan gul Baz and  Sher Baz  etc. In case of Hashmi origin, the successor’s of Qutab Shah must be keeping Islamic names or atleast Shah as last name but it is not the fact. Pre Islamic names means that they accepted the religion but maintained their identity as well. Mathematical analysis. if we accept the claim and assume that Qutab Shah along with his six sons reached Ghour around year 1000CE and they had maximum growth average rate of 4 children each family which I personally believe it is too less as compare to true growth. The number of his successors must touch 402 Million which is impossible. If he arrived with, Ghouri, Ghaznavi or Shah Khowazam in year 1150- 1221 , his successors total population should reach  12.5 Millions to 25 Millions which is still more than real. This prove that his estimated arrival of the area is some time later than the false implanted theories or they are part of some other ethnic group probably Pashtun’s or Baluch’s which seems more logical. Awan with same origin as Pashtuns 1.	In addition to similarity of common names with Pashtun.s Awan’s upto 18th century used to family sub dividing Khel system (FAQIR KHEL, Wali khel etc) which is common with Pashtun’s. Most of the Awan’s living at Attock and Chakwal still know their khel,s. This is sound evidence of their traces which overlooked by the Historians. Second evidence is culture, which is quite similar with Pashtuns like folk dances Ghummer, ludi and , Khaid , Barballa. wedding customs like Gharroli breaking choorrni, waving groom on a khat, arranging a lovely child to sit with bride (three are Jew customs common in both groups) and other social activities Jirga, bull race, tent pegging , Kabadi , kaudi are equally famous in pashtun tribes as well. Tribal leaders in Pashtuns are called “Malak”. Malik mean King in Hebrew. Some of the Malik Consider themselves Afghan sub tribe (kakay zai Malaks). 2.	Awan /Pashtuns still follow Jewish/Israelite wedding  and funeral customs in addition to Islamic customs. like breaking "chorrni" ( a mud soccer which is placed on water pot) with right leg. (Jewish Nikah complete with this custom). lighting lantern for 40 days at a place where somebody have his last breaths, putting blood on doorsteps at some occasions. .  3.	Awan speaks Punjabi  but some of words they got derived from the former ancestral tongue which other punjabi tribes dont speak. for different timing Awan use the words Sargi ,  Paisee , deegar, shami and kuftaan. In Pashto  sarg mean cock  (Sargi ni Bangaan) where as other mas-pashen. mas-deegar, mas- sham , mas- kheten are bit similar as Awans. I was surprise to hear Muslims of Chinese origin (Ganso province China mainland) saying the same words as, paishen , jeegar, shamo, kuften. 4.	Another evidence which never noticed by historians the real place of migration to today/s Pakistan. As Sultan Mohammad Ghouri moved from Ghour so historian linked all tribes joining his forces with ghouri which is impossible. I think the place of Awan's Migration was district Indkai (Faryab Province ) as Pastun till today call Awan people as Indki (plural) or indkai(singular) whereas for other Punjabi's the use the word obo-wal. (people with water), This word indki mostly got mis-spelled by historian as Hindki which make them confused with Indians. As Pashtun migrated along with them .So mean something to be correct for their place of migration. 5.	It seems that Hindo’s were settled in the areas of chakwal, Jhelum, Attock, Sargodha, Khushab and Mianwali before Awan’s arrival in those area. Name of town’s at Tehsil Jand attock ,which are adjuscent to each other in match. Injra village. Hinjra clan Chhab village. Chhaba clan Jhamat village. Jamot clan Uchhri village. Uchhra clan Jand town -   Jandyal  clan Langar village - Langerryal clan Basal village -   Bosal Clan Kahal village. Kahaloon Clan. These are town’s / Railway stations in between Attock and Daud Khel. Today non of above mentioned Clan have existance in the area but these names are enough to prove that these tribe were living here before awans attival .This Awan, and Baluch who remained on front line area adjacent to Hindo had marriages with Hindo  girls after converting them to Islam and the caused the change in their native language how ever they were able to keep some words of their formal language. Later Awan had some cross Marriages with Niazi and Khattak tribes and surprisingly they do lost their former language. I assume that the reason of losing language was Isolation from stream tribal society as till now in tribal society family marriages are common. 6.	Before the arrival of halako khan to area Niazi's, Khakwani and Sadozai Pashtun Malaks were ruling Multan. As Altamash tried to crush them to secure slave rule. salt range was conquered during Shah Jehan rule with collabration of Khattak and Niazi tribes. thus Awan;s moved to east leaving Shakar Dara Kohat for  Saghri Khattak, western part of salt range to Barak Khattak and shared some areas with Niazi’s. This event got recorded in history  by khushak Khan Khattak when he got summoned  the King to imperial court and King there enquired him regarding the involvement of  Khattak’s in conquest of salt range ,Khushl Khattak replied that those people belong to other clans of Khattak (Saghri and Barak) not under his control (Akora). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zarrigul (talk • contribs) 12:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Alamsherkhan (talk) 16:49, 1 August 2011 (UTC)The above claim need special attention among the theories of Awan's origin for the following reasons:- 1.  Most of the historian agree that Ancestors of Awan's Migrated from Afghanistan. Afghanistan's Majority population is Pashtun and Tajik so that makes a good possibility and connection. 2.  Topic "origin" of this page claim that Tori and Jhaji (Zazi) tribes of Kurram are a clan of Awan. Both tribes consider themselves Pashtun and the information regarding both on wikipedia consider them Afghan this is valid evidence. 3.  The derive logic for Awan is confusing. if one accept that Awan is derived from "Ahwan" (Sanskrat), Aon (Arabic) or "Own" (English) what he would have logic to deny the misspeeling factor among "Awan" and "Awgan" ? 4.  Babur mention Gakarr and Awan's as same blood line and family. This dismiss the claim that Awan came to india with Babur and this need to be mentioned in theories of origin. All names of the local chief names of Salt range mentioned by Babur show resemblance with Afghan and Mongol names as compare Arabs. if Babur sentence "Maliks are younger brothers of Gakarr chief" mean the existing of Awan's then Kak-arr ,Gak-arr, and khat-arr makes' connections as cousin clans of a same family keeping in view that "Kakarr" is famous Pashtun Khilji Tribe settled at Qandhar afghanistan and Quetta. otherwise we have to accept that upto that time Awan's were not settled at Khushab and Sargodha. As it is difficult to skip a majority population specially a warlike tribe of the area which he was going to face with in the conquest. 5. It is point to mentionthat Between year 1641-1657 Khattak had existing at Bhera. In history We find Abbas Khan Khattak being Subedar. Most probably Niazi and awan's were part of that conquest which recorded by khushal Khan khattak andthat was time when Awan shifted to Khushab and Sargodha from Shakar Dara Kohat, being part of Khattak's Allies.Till today whole Salt range from east to west is shared by Janjua, Awan, Niazi and Khattak's almost equally. The Event of khattak conquest to Bhera got noticed by King Shah Jehan and he questioned Khushal khattak the chieftain of khattak's in imperial court. Khushal Khan khattak in his  memories book record this question/answer session 6.   Awan's counting system, wedding custom's and folk dances show more resemblance with Afghan's as compare to Arab's. These are major living evidences which can't be denied. 7.   Awan's are divided on theory of Origin, some claim themselves as Burlas, some consider themselves as local, some insist on Arab origin then why to ignore another possibility when we have enough evidences to support Afghans origin claim as compare to Arab claim. Alamsherkhan

Who are Hindo/ Sikh Awan
Exactly who are these Hindu and Sikh Awans? Being an Awan, I have read up extensively on the history of the Awans and I have never come across any reference to Hindu and Sikh sections of the Awan tribe. Even the various (and highly numerous) Punjab Gazetteers and census tables complied by the British (which provide an exhaustive analysis of Punjab's various ethnic groups, including the Awans) categorically state that the Awan tribe is exclusively Muslim, there not being a single reference to Awans who profess to be Hindus or Sikhs; of course, this does not mean that there are not those of Awan origin who choose to become adherents of faiths other than Islam. I have come across Awans whose families continued to reside in India following the partition of the Subcontinent, but even these rare individuals (the vast majority of Awans are to be found in Pakistan, including those who ancestral villages – before the creation of Pakistan - were to be found in East Punjab) belong to Muslim families. Indeed, Harikishan Kaul, who was the of the opinion that the Awans were of Hindu origin and converted to Islam en masse during the advent of Muslim rule in the Subcontinent, noted in the Punjab census of 1911 that the Awan tribe numbered 425,931 individuals and was comprised entirely of Muslims and thus the tribe was classified as such.

I actually would not be in favour of including the history of Hindu and Sikh Awans in this article because if they do exist, they bear no relation to the Awan tribe that is the topic of this particular article. Moreover, I do not say this because I am antipathetic towards Hindus and Sikhs (quite the opposite, actually) nor because I am religious (I am not).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.167.50 (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

chances of adoption and conversion in some extent are there. i know a dozen of hindu khattak's living at india. I know a few  Syed who got converted to Hindu or christian even at Karachi. So Take it easy. A few dont represent the majority are cant become base of a theory — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zarrigul (talk • contribs) 21:53, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Alamsherkhan (talk) 11:01, 4 August 2011 (UTC)I totally disagree with racist comment made by one of our friend. who we are to include or exclude the people from one ethnic group,when the page is dedicated for Awan's in general. Non of us have right to segrecate people on the basis of their faith. Alamsher khan

Alamsherkhan add more to reply Averriost
Alamsherkhan (talk) 12:54, 5 August 2011 (UTC) it is stated that it was the custom and practice of Arabs to get mother's family name. Khokhar wer having existance in the areas before Mehmood Ghaznavi. The boy Khokhar who you claim to chose mothers tribe name was living at India. He was not familiar with Arab society and custom. you have to give example from hindu customs instead of Arab customs. So this logic don't serve your purpose. previously you mention that it was matter of pride for Mehmood Ghaznavi to marry his sister in Prophet's family but here you talk reverse. Is it not? why in case of Khokhar, a new convert girl and his arab muslim husband did not feel comfortable with Hashmi pride ? what if that kokar was Kakarr or Gak-arr and mis-spelled by historians? It is more appropriate and logical that Qutab Haider Salar married his daugther  to a newly convert Khokar who accepted to live as Ghar Damad and in such case his children are right to claim themselves as Khokhar Awan being adopted tribe of Awan. With regard to your comments "The names of Awan clans recorded late into this century are neither Arab, nor Tajik but patently South Asian", please tell me that when, and where these names were recorded and by whom. the greek historians mentioned them Aspo-soi (yusafzai) Dadic-ai (Tajik) sattok-soi and gadak-oi (khattak). Averriost claim for shajra maintain 12 link between Hazrat Ali KW to Qutab shah. which mean Qutab Haider Salar born 100 years earlier to Mehmood Ghaznavi so how to fit Qutab Haider Salar in Mehmood Ghaznavi story? you need to add atleast 6-7 more fake names in shajrah, publish them and 100 years later you can prove that Haider Salar was real Qutab Shah. if you stick on your claim then it is your responsibility to prove then you have to admit that Qutab Salar was Sunni and later some time few of his succesors convert to Shia. or you have to prove how majority become Sunni?

when you talk about Bard what does it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.2.93.171 (talk) 03:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The role of bards in the history of Awans
Some of the editors of this page denied the family trees of Awan, and insisted on the cultural sources rather than historical sources with regard to the origin of the tribe and in this regard they inserted external links of marriage ceremonies of the tribe. As Alamsherkhan states that, “Let us come up to find living evidence in our culture to find truth.” The institution of bards has an important role in the history of Awan. What is a bard. According to Wikipedia, “a bard was (or is) a professional poet, employed by a patron, such as a monarch or nobleman, to commemorate the patron's ancestors and to praise the patron's own activities.

Human bards were also entertainers, but this was only a secondary job, a side job as it were. They were really record keepers, and lineage holders, for the bards could determine a king's legitimacy. To satirize a king was to declare his access to the throne suspect. The role of the bard was that of historian and social commentator. They taught about the past and glorified heroes while insulting cowards and villains. They were both the newspaper and the opinion page. In cultures without written media, people had to learn through living sources. As such, events were not simply words on a page but dramas of vice and virtue.

So, there were, and there are bards amongs Awan in their mainhomeland Soon Valley, Salt Range and other areas. For centuries they kept the record of the ancestors of Awans. Are these records worth anything? Do these editors deny the whole institution of Bard?

Averroist (talk) 07:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Role of Mirasi for keeping family tree When the claim is that Qutab shah was Arab.then we have to cross check that whether Arab/s maintain there family tree through Mirasi? secondly he moved to indian contigent from Herat. secondly we have to check whether Herat have this tradition? if Arab and Khorasani's dont have this custom. then you have to think perhaps it will indicate that Qutab shah was local JAT.Frankly speaking this record have no value. It is not authentic proof because upto 18th century just a few people in district were able to read and write. Difficult to memorise million of names and their repitition in one family. It is fact the Mirasas in rural areas live at the mercy of Chaudhry or Shah of the village and they have to manage what chaudhry or Shah ji want them to do. secondly their problem is illiteracy. No one can deny the historical sources if they are proved correct. every statement need cross examination for it's authenticity. you don't need to explain the role of bard in europe when you are discussing Indian contigent as both areas have different customs. First you make sure what you want to prove him? you need to check human capability for memorizing name? how it makes possible that 300-400 perople can memorize the names of milillions? In the area where literacy rate was almost 0% (zero percent) a century ago. if people of Bhera or Khushab keep their family tree through Mirasi then this is proof that Qutab Shah was a local person as Jats keep their record this way. Awan of Attock and Talagang have PAT/ Khel system.(no need to explain that PAT mean muscle or off spring in hindko and Punjabi. If you go to local parwai within Awankari he will know you through your PAT or PATI. Just after Babur Sher Shah suri introduced the land inheritance record system through Dewan Kathu Mal (sorry i am not much sure for name). So if one like to check his family tree .It is better to visit revenue office. amazingly while watching information for Saghaal Awan at the main article i found that Awans were keeping khel system like Niazi's and Pashtuns . In the list of prominant firgures of Shaghaal Awan one can find Subedar (Rted) Fateh Khan Awan late of Dhoke Ahmed Gul Khel, Kalri, soldier in British Army and was awarded Indian Order of Merit for his bravery in World War II. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alamsherkhan (talk • contribs) 22:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Awan from Hazrat Abbass and Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya
INTRODUCTIONAbbasi & Hanfi Awan Awan a South Asian Zamindar tribe, putatively of Arab origin, living predominantly in western and central parts of Punjab, Pakistan. The Ferozsons Urdu-English Dictionary lists the Awans as a tribe whose name is of Arabic origin and means "assistant" or "helper"; this somewhat supports the traditional claim of the Awans vis-�-vis their origins. Because the majority of Awans subscribe to the belief that they are the descendants of the fourth Caliph Hazrat Ali R A (though the bulk of those belonging to the tribe are not Shias), a number adopt the title, Alvi, although not all of those who refer to themselves as Alvi are Awans. Awan tribes claims that they belong to Qutab Shah here we clarify that there are two personalities enter in Sub-continent 1.Awon Qutab Shah and 2. Qutab Haider Shah.....Awon Qutab shah,s faimily tree touch to Hazrat Abbas Alamdar R A and Hazrat Awon had two sons 1. Hazrat Abdullah Golra and 2 Hazrat Muhammad Kandlan. and faimily tree of Qutab Haider Shah connected with Hazrat Muhammad Hanfia R A ahve 9 sons and they called by Rajpot, Chohan, Khhichi, Khattar, Kahot etc....Main source of these

Other theories have been adduced by the Awans regarding their origins, but most of these hypotheses also point to the tribe being descended from Awon Qutab Shah, who entered the Indian subcontinent as part of a military campaign (and traced his bloodline to Ali R A). However, there are those who dispute that the Awans are of Arab origin; these include Alexander Cunningham, Harikishan Kaul and Arthur Brandreth. Cunningham looked upon the Awans as a Rajput clan, whereas Kaul was of the opinion that the tribe was of either Jat or Rajput origin, pointing to the fact that in Sanskrit, the term Awan means "defender" or "protector" and asserting that this title was awarded by surrounding tribes due to the Awans successfully defending their strongholds against aggression. Brandreth believed the Awans to be remnants of Bactrian Greeks. It should be noted that these theories were partly founded on grounds of phonetics, geographical considerations and observational coincidences, and remain conjecture having never been corroborated by the Awan tribe or neighboring clans.

There are many places in Soon Sakesar Valley Khushab Pakistan that are too much beautiful & unique in beauty in all over the Pakistan. But some places are very important and must visit. Like Jheel Khabeki, Jheel Ochhali, Jheel Jahlar, Kanhati Bagh, Sodhi Bagh, Narsingh Powar, Daep Shareef, Amb Shareef........ Conversely, there are also those who support the Awan claim to Arab ancestry. Amongst such names are those of H. A. Rose, Malik Fazal Dad Khan and Sabiha Shaheen. According to Rose not only are the Awans of Arabian origin, he also accepted that they are indeed the descendants of Qutab Shah. Tracing their lineage to Ali R A, in Rose's view, the Awans were Alvi Syeds who assisted Sabuktageen in his Indian adventure, for which he bestowed the title of Awan on them, meaning "assistant". Malik Fazal Dad Khan has supported this theory but with some modifications. He also considers the Awans to be of Arabian origin and traces their lineage to Ali, but according to him, Abdullah Rasul Mirza was the remote ancestor of the Awans; in the eighth century, he was made a commander of the army of Ghaur by Caliph Harun al-Rashid, the title of Awan being conferred upon him, and his descendants consequently being called Awans. Sabiha Shaheen (who addressed this issue as part of her MA Thesis) deems this theory tenable. Furthermore, she states that Qutab Shah fled to the subcontinent along with a small group of people due to Mongol attacks and joined the court of Iltutmish. The majority of his descendants came to refer to themselves as Qutab Shahi Awans (and most Awans are able to trace their family trees to Qutab Shah). The findings of the geneticist, S. Dorning, suggest that the Awans are ethnically distinct from Jats and Rajputs, thus negating theories that propose the Awan tribe originated from Jat or Rajput groups.The Awans have a unique distinction of being the only Punjabi tribe which has no adherents of Hinduism or Sikhism and is a totally Muslim tribe which adds weight to their claim of Arabian ancestry.

The Awans have a strong martial tradition and are renowned for their bravery and courage. They were prominent in the armies of the Slave Dynasty and the Khilji dynasty during the Delhi Sultanate period.[1] Awans also held prominent military positions during the Mughal era. According to Denzil Ibbetson, the Awans may well have accompanied the forces of Babur and the Awans of Jalandhar, who claimed to have shifted from the Salt Range at the behest of one of the early Emperors of Delhi, were particularly notable for being in the imperial service at Delhi. In the early nineteenth century, one of the most powerful men in Delhi was Malik Durrab Khan Awan. Apparently ,serving in armies has been their oldest profession in light of their fearless nature. The Awans were amongst those the British considered to be "martial races" (a designation created by officials of British India to describe "races" - peoples - that were thought to be naturally warlike and aggressive in battle and to possess qualities such as courage, loyalty, self-sufficiency, physical strength, resilience, orderliness and fighting tenacity and to be hard-working and adept at military strategy. The British recruited heavily from these "martial races" for service in the colonial army[2]) and as such, formed an important part of the British Indian Army, serving with distinction during World Wars I and II. Awans formed part of the core Muslim group recruited by the British during the First and Second World Wars.[3]Contemporary historians, namely Professor Ian Talbot and Professor Tan Tai Yong, have authored works that cite the Awans (amongst other tribes) as being looked upon as a martial race by not only the British, but neighboring tribes as well. The Pakistani military has always heavily recruited Awans and as is consistent with the past, the tribe continues to produce a considerable number of soldiers, many of whom today occupy many of the senior-most ranks of the Pakistani Army.[4] Awans in general enjoy a respected status in Pakistan. Many have played and continue to play, prominent roles in areas as varied as the military, business, politics and literature. On a rural level, Awans are respected as members of the Zamindar or landowning class. Many Awan families to this day live on and cultivate land, which their ancestors have held for centuries. They often carry titles typical to Punjabis who own tracts of ancestral land such as Malik, Chaudhry and Khan, depending on the area they live in as they are now widely dispersed all over the Punjab, NWFP and parts of Sindh and Balochistan. Hence they speak the language of the region they are settled in now. The modern surname system often results in members of the same family with different surnames, some choosing their position as a surname i.e. Malik or Chaudhry, and some choosing their clan/tribe/family name of Awan. As a result of census data collated during the era of the British Raj, the Awan tribe was invariably classified as being exclusively Muslim; contemporary census figures underline that this essentially remains the status quo. Pakistan is home to 4,579,000 members of the Awan tribe (all Muslim). [5][not in citation given] In India, 15,000 Awans have declared themselves to be Muslims (an insignificant number belonging the tribe, totaling sixty individuals, has declared itself to be Christian). Data does not exist to show that the tribe counts adherents of the Hindu and Sikh faiths amongst its ranks, a unique feature even amongst Punjabi tribes that are predominantly comprised of Muslims. [6]

The bulk of the Awan tribe is to be found in the Punjab province of Pakistan. Its population is concentrated in the districts of Rawalpindi, Attock, Chakwal, Jhelum, Sargodha, Bahawalpur, Khushab (particularly the Soon Valley), Mianwali (Awan tribes residing here are believed to have been the sole occupants of the Mianwali Salt Range for nearly six hundred years), Gujranwala, Hafizabad, Gujrat, Sialkot, Narowal, and Layyah and is also scattered throughout the rest of Punjab to where the Awans kept migrating as the hilly areas that they were originally settled in did not provide much employment opportunities, except for joining the Army. A number of Awan villages also exist next to Lahore along the Indo-Pak border where many Awans settled after migrating from East Punjab in 1947 following partition. Many Awans from East Punjab also migrated to and settled in Faisalabad. Many Awans, primarily from East Punjab, prefer writing Alvi or Alavis with their name to pronounce their ancestry from Ali ibn Talib,the son in law of the Prophet. Tracts in regions such as Attock, Jhelum, Sargodha and Mianwali are so heavily populated by Awans that they have long been referred to as "Awankari". Pre-Partition, an Awankari existed in Jalandhar and in Awan Bara in Hoshiarpur. Though these areas are their ancestral homelands and many own farms and other property there, numerous Awans live in the major cities of Pakistan such as Lahore, (where a section of the Awan tribe has established a settlement, aptly named Awan Town), Islamabad, and Karachi. The Awan tribe is also to be found in great numbers in the Khyber Pakhtoonkha Province, particularly in Hazara Division, Peshawer valley and the districts of Nowshera, Kohat, Abbottabad, Haripur, Manshera, Bannu and Swat. A smaller portion of the tribe resides in Azad Kashmir and to a lesser extent is also present in the Pakistani provinces of Sindh and Balochistan. In addition, Awans can also be found in Afghanistan and some parts of India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.153.218.133 (talk) 10:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi 119.153.218.133 and Rawalpindi Express

You seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject , Muhammad Ghazni was a Sunni and attacked the (Shia) ,Ismaili in Multan but according to historical accounts the  descendants  Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya  were Shia. Why would his descendants support Muhammad Ghazni ? We seem to have a dichotomy here. I have put some historical material on the Qutb Shah discussion page, that should assist in improving the authenticity of pages related to Qutb Shah and Awans , would appreciate your response. 119.153.218.133, it would help if you could make your responses more concise and backed by sources Intothefire (talk) 08:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * What are the historical accounts, according to which the descendants of Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya were Shia. If you know the historical accounts yourself, why are you asking reference. The  chap with Ip address 119.153.218.133, just made copy and paste.


 * The first referene is "Mirat-al-Israr" written in Persian by Abdur Rahman Chishti (died 1094Hijri). he wrote the biography of Ghazi Saiyyad Salar Masud on the instruction of Emperor Jahangir. Salar Masud was born at Ajmer on 22 January 1015 AD. He was son of Gazi Saiyyed Salar Sahu who was married to Sitr-i-Mu'alla, a sister Mahmood Ghaznvi. Ghazi Salar Sahu was brother of Qutb shah, and both were sons of Ghazi Attah Allah Ghazi. According to the author, Salar Sahu was a descendant of Muhammad Hanafia, son of Hazrat Ali. He gave complete family tree in his book, and he also mentioned Qutb Shah.


 * "Mirati Mas’udi" is the urdu translation by Maulana Muhammad Sadiq Hassan Qadri. Aiena Masoodi by Akbar Warsi Meerthi is other book on the subject. You can find more details in  The History of India as Told by its own Historians. The Posthumous Papers of the Late Sir H. M. Elliot. John Dowson, ed. 1st ed. 1867. 2nd ed., Calcutta: Susil Gupta, 1956, vol. 14, pp. 103-145. Though this detail is about Ghazi Saiyyad Salar Masud

Regards

Averroist (talk) 15:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Qutb Shah's ancestor as Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah and Kaysanites Shia

 * Response from Intothefire to Averroist 1
 * Hi Averroist
 * Here are my responses to your questions and information you have provided about Qutb Shah from the book Mirati Mas’udi
 * The article currently states that Qutb Shah was a descendant of Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah.


 * For Historical evidence that Descendants of Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah were Shia : Please read the article Kaysanites Shia also Talk:Qutb_Shah page where I have provided various links to reliable sources.


 * Mir-dt-i Masudi by Abdur Rahman Chisti : There is no mention whatsoever that I could find of Qutb Shah in this book that you mention  (The History of India -As told by its own Historians, in 8 Volumes , Volume 2 , Sir H M Elliot John Dowson -Published by Low Price Publications . The Mir-dt-i Masudi is on Page 512 to 549 ) . I went through the entire book on my hard copy . If it has missed my attention please provide the chapter where Qutb Shah is mentioned.


 * I had not questioned the existence of Qutb Shah but pointed out that if he was a descendant of Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah, Muhammd Hanifiyyah descendants are historically attributed to Kaysanites Shia . Since Muhammad Ghazni is known to have been antithetical to the Shia as in the case in Multan , then we seem to have a dichotomy of Qutb Shah being a supporter of Mahmud Ghazni.

Intothefire (talk) 07:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The article would need to be accordingly reflect this information for better balance.
 * 119.153.148.127 would you please provide a proper reference from a reliable secondary source for your post as well as a brief explanation.


 * Dear Intothefire, there is no nation on this earth, nor has there been any, than Arabs who preserved the family tree of religious leaders and generals, specially of Hasmhi tribe. I have mentioned that the original book "Mirat-al-Israr" was written in Persian by Abdur Rahman Chishti (died 1094 Hijri)on the instruction of Emperor Jahangir, and "Mirati Mas’udi" is the urdu translation (1894) by Maulana Muhammad Sadiq Hassan Qadri. It was written sometime during the reign of the Moghul emperor Jahangir (1605-26 CE). The author based the work on an earlier (and now lost work) by Mulla Muhammad Ghaznawi, a contemporary of the Sultan Mahmud and Salar Mas’ud.


 * With reference to the English book, I wrote, "Though this detail is about Ghazi Saiyyad Salar Masud". In this Urdu translation, on p.62, the writer mentions Malik Qutb Haider. In this edition of 1894, the urdu is very old and it is difficult to read old printing. I read it with great difficulty on my Amazon kindle DX. I can provide you a PDF copy of this Urdu translation. According to the author, so far as I can understand it, the whole family tree goes like this;


 * I must tell you one more thing that, in my humble opinion, the Awans are not the descendants of this Qutb Shah. So don't waste your time on this Qutb Shah, if you are against this article.  Cheers

Averroist (talk) 12:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hazrat Ali KW was born in year 598-600 where Mehmood Ghaznavi got born in year 971. if we assume that Qutub shah was in same age group of Mehmood Ghaznavi so it comes 371 year later to Hazrat Ali. In past parents were used to marry their children in early ages before reaching 18 and upto age of 25  they were having 2-3 children. In this equation through minimum of 15 ancesters Qutab shah need to get linked with Hazrat Ali K.W which this Shajrah dont prove. If we consider this Shajrah correct it mean that Qutab shah was born arround year 850, almost 100 year before Ghaznavi which put all stories of connection with ghaznavi family in doubt. Alamsherkhan (talk) 15:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * So you want to say that there is no tomb of Hazrat Gazi Saiyyed Salar Sahu, situated in Satrikh, 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) away from Barabanki, in Uttar Pradesh, or there is no tomb of Syed Salar Masood Ghazi in Bahraich. So you also want to deny that this family including Salar Saif ud Din, Salar Qutb Shah, Salar Rajab did not fight many battles with Indian Rajas of Delhi, Kannauj, Kara, Manakpur etc. These are all stories.Averroist (talk) 10:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Sir with due respect, my comments were very simple and merely about authenticity of Shajra -e- Nasb. Both shajrah Nasb seems fabricated. I am not sure how many sisters Mehmood Ghaznavi had but One of his Sister  was married to Abu Hasan from Khewarzm year (1015) but Abu Hasan died the same year. This story dont make sense when we see Ghaznavi blamed as orthodx sunni by Historians and  his Hostile attitude to Ismaili Shia's of Multan. Similarly we find another Qutab Shahi Dynsty at India. but they arrived india around year 1510. It is no doubt in past at Indo- Pak many got sayyed title through false Shajras linking them with Sons of Hazrat Imam Hasan or Imam Hussain who never existed or mentioned in previous history books Alamsherkhan (talk) 14:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This mentioned book Mir-dt-i Masudi does not mention Qutb Shah ...or Awans ...so the reference and discussion to this book here is irrelevant really.
 * Is there any Persian or Arabic or translated book from a Muslim historical source like Ferishta, Biruni , Batuta etc or for that matter any other ,  into Urdu or English  that mentions Qutb Shah and the Awans ?
 * Rawalpindi Express perhaps you may know one that we could mention or cite reference from in this article. Intothefire (talk) 14:47, 26 July 201

Dear Averriost. Please re-address the contraditions of your comments. It is diificult for a common soldier to get marry with king's daughter or Sister. A known military leader could have access to the family of King and some time requirement of the Kingdom. As you claim that Qutab Haider's wife was Ghaznavi Sister and Alaptigin's Daughter. (which seems impossible keeping Ghaznavi's religious attitude)secondly you claim he was a simple soldier with nine sons, so historians overlooked him. Why historian's did not overlook ghaznavi's another brother in law, Abu Hasan Mamun who married his sister during year 1015 and he got killed same year at Khewarzm during internal tribe fight. Brother in law of King is not a common person and specially when he leave him behind on Border line. it is very difficult to decidewhich one of Qutan came with Mehmood ghaznavi? How Qutab Shah and his Nine sons managed to live within enemies Terroitory when majority local Hindu rajputs were also known as good fighters?(specially Janjua who share common border with Awan). sure there was reasonable strength of allied muslim tribes in the vacanity which provided protection to each other being part of a good team. Very strange a person have nine sons but dont have a single daughter. if we accept that Qutab shah had a few daughters than issue of Awan clans with Hindu names get solved being Adopted tribes. Still there are a lot of Issues regarding Qutab shah and Qutab Haider to discuss. if they both came with Mehmood ghaznavi then why their population today dont show equal to each other? another important point to keep in mind that what time they arrived Herat? Exactly when Mehmood was preparing his army to invade India or they got settled at Herat long time ago. if they were living at Herat Since a long then we can guess their population at Afghanistan as 3-4 times or much more of Awan's populations at Pakistan which seems impossible elseotherwise if we accept them branch of some other tribe. Alamsherkhan (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to AlamSherkhan

Dear Alamsherkhan, please read atleast my post and family tree given in this regard; with care. I did not write that Qutab Haider's wife was Ghaznavi Sister and Alaptigin's Daughter. It was Salar sahu, who was married to Mahmood Ghaznavi Sister and Subuktagin's Daughter, not Alaptigin's Daughter. I request you to please read the book, the biography of Ghazi Saiyyad Salar Masud. He was son of Gazi Saiyyed Salar Sahu who was married to Sitr-i-Mu'alla, a sister Mahmood Ghaznvi. Ghazi Salar Sahu was brother of Qutb shah, and both were sons of Ghazi Attah Allah Ghazi. Cheers Averroist (talk) 11:06, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to Averriost Alamsherkhan (talk) 14:03, 7 August 2011 (UTC)My major objection on this Shajra is number of links between Hazat Ail K.W and Qutab Haider. yor shajra mention 12 links.If Qutab Haider was of Sultan mehmood Ghaznavi age we need atleast 15 links. three missing links mean Qutab haib Haider was 75-100 years elder as compare to  Ghaznavi. More over Sultan Mehmood ghaznavi sister was married during year 1015 to Abu Hasan Mamun at Khewazm and that is what you need to understand. try to be fair with history instead of changing all the informations of website to prove your claim. .your claim does not match the authenticity for a number of reason. It is better for you to make it simple with a claim that Qutab Haider a Shia scholar got settled at Khushab during 10th or 11 century instead of considering him the ancentor of all the Awan's.BTW what is tentive figure for real Awan's population at Pakistan? the book "race of punjab " is not a holy book which you consider without mistake. if you read the claims in depth you will find it alomst full of contraductions. his account for population of attock city if we match with today population of Attock city it comes 60 times increase. so if we apply the same on the figures for account of Awan's at sargodha ,it make it 3 million but accordingly there should be 9 Million Rajputs, 0.6 million sayyeds and equally Pashtuns available  and count of labour class oh my God...... try it with your own calculator.

Response to Intothefire

 * Hi, Intothefire,there is name of Malik Qutb Haider on the page 62 of the book. Your opinion is based on your prejudiced approach. Now I have a question?


 * Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi turned his small hilly country, into the great empire which covered most of today's Iran, Afghanistan as well as Pakistan and North-West India. From 1000 to 1026, he made every year an expedition to Hind. According to Sir Henry Elliot, Mahmud led as many as seventeen expeditions, and it is accepted by the most of the historians. The most momentous expedition of Sultan Mahmud was indeed the capture of Somnath in Kathiwar. For such expeditions, he must have needed a great army and generals. His army consisted of heterogeneous elements such as Arabs, Afghanis, Turks.


 * Do you know how many camels, did Mahmud deploy for this campaign. 30,000. All these camels were deployed to carry the provisions for the army. Do you know how many soldiers, captains and generals he had. For such expeditions, he must have needed a great army and generals.  I ask you a question in your own words:


 * “Is there any Persian or Arabic or translated book from a Muslim historical source like Ferishta, Biruni , Batuta etc or for that matter any other , into Urdu or English” that mentions the name of these captains and generals.


 * This is not a discussion page of History or sources of History that we should discuss the nature, study, and sources of history or discuss about the study of history, or we should quote Arnold Toynbee, or Will Durant, or I should discuss the philosophy of history with you.  You should know the basic subject and it terms with reference of Indian History.


 * The Awan tribe did not capture Delhi or established a vast empire. It is a tribe of remote hilly area of Soon Valley and Salt Range. In the time of Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi, it was a small family of a father and nine sons. Read the preface of the book I have quoted, but I think you cannot read the script of the book written in the language, you can speak. Now please read the followings lines with care from Sir Olif Caroe. These lines will throw light on our subject.


 * ".........I have mentioned AI-Biruni's reference to the Afghans as the name of the warlike tribes, obviously only beginning to embrace Islam, who at the end of the tenth century inhabited the plains and mountains on the borders of India between the Indus and Kabul. With their location thus defined as more or less that which it still is, with the beginnings in Mahmud's time of a mass conversion to Islam, and with the advent of contemporary and intelligent Arab chroniclers, we should expect to find that from this date starts the detailed history of the tribes from whose ranks so many of these armies were drawn. The reality is very different. With the exception of what Al-Biruni has to say, and one incidental passage by the fourteenth-century traveller Ibn Batura, it is broadly true to affirm that the histories of these five centuries are barren of any detailed reference to these ‘savage rebellious races’ in their homeland."


 * "........The conclusion must be that, Al-Biruni excepted, the writers during the intervening period were little more than arm-chairs chroniclers of dynastic achievements...".


 * ".......The authors of the Delhi chronicles had no knowledge of the Borderlands, and took no intuest in the tribal backgroand of the Mercenary soldiers who rose to king's estate They were concerned mainly with the flattery  of a throne or the detraction of a rival or a predecessor."  Averroist (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Averroist
 * Concisely what was your question to me in this last post ?
 * Pray what has the number of camels ? or men ?  to do with improving the content and balance of the page at hand ?
 * Are you suggesting that a  Malik Qutb Haider is ,or is not, the same as Qutb Shah ?


 * Please focus on the content in the article and desist from Ad hominem


 * CheersIntothefire (talk) 03:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * My question was very simple. “Is there any Persian or Arabic or translated book from a Muslim historical source like Ferishta, Biruni , Batuta etc or for that matter any other , into Urdu or English” that mentions the name of these captains and generals" of Mahmood of Ghazni?


 * The number of camels ? or men, (or captains and generals, you did not mention these two words) were mentioned only to tell that Mahmood was a great king and he had a great army. The other details was mentioned to tell that that the ancient books of history are full with the name of Mahmood of Ghazni.


 * Please read your own question, "Is there any Persian or Arabic or translated book from a Muslim historical source like Ferishta, Biruni , Batuta etc or for that matter any other , into Urdu or English that mentions Qutb Shah and the Awans ?", and then read my question. Cheers Averroist (talk) 08:25, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Qutab Shah or Qutab Haider is a character of purposely implanted story. let us check it through mathematical way. Population growth rate is same for all communities of the area. Today estimated population of Awan's is 3.5 Millions, Population of Baluchs is 7 Million whereas population of Pashtuns living at Pakistan is 24.5 Millions. It is very simple math question and a student of primary level can solve it to untrue.If We assume that Qutab Shah or Qutab Haider came here alongwith his 9 Sons and all the Awan's are his successors then we have to accept that today Baluch population is successor of 20 soldiers and the Pashtuns living at Pakistan are successors of 70 soldiers who came here with Mehmood Ghaznavi. Great undefeated 100 soldiers (10+20+70)look like stars of Hong Kong or Sultan Rahi style movie who engaged thousands of brave Rajput soldiers in the whole area till Ghori invasion. What you think this story have some sense? One can easily understand what is the purpose of that story. I am afraid tomorrow one will come with a claim that the Awan's were converted to Sunni's by force and it is not difficult for implantors to get evidence from great liberary at Iran. "Itrran Koor Kapo jairra Hazam vi ho wanjay" Frankly speaking if we accept this growth rate that mean we agree that Afghanistan population during year 1000 including children, female ,soldiers, professionals and old people at afghanistan was 80 human being, India 3290 human being, China 13880 human being and total population of the world was 20000 human being. this growth rate let us feel that the world was just created at that time and this growth rate even can't permit you to think of 100 before Sultan Ghaznavi. What you think a country with population of 80 human being were needing 30,000 camels to invade and conquer a country having total population of 3290 Human being? Man accept that there is something wrong with story of Qutab Shah/ Qutab Haider and 30,000 Camels as well. Let us come up to find living evidence in our culture to find truth. We need to find them in our Costumes, eating utencils, cultural activities, Jewllery and music instruments and the logical answer for their adoption whether those are Awan's inheritance or got influenced by neighbours. Let us common customes in All Awan's living at Rawalpindi, Chakwal, Jehlum, Attock, Khushab and Sargodha and then discuss that custom in detail. Cheers Alamsherkhan (talk) 05:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Mahmud Ghazni attacks on Shia in Multan
Hi Alamsherkhan you have made a pertinent point. Now Reverting to the issue once again about Intothefire (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * the dichotomy of Muhammad Ghazni a Sunni who  attacked the (Shia) ,Ismaili in Multan
 * but according to historical accounts the  Kaysanites Shia : Kaysaniyya; Kaysanis Adherents of an early Shi‘i group originally led by al-Mukhtar (d. 687) who recognized Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah (d. 322/934) as their Imam and mahdi. . Why would his descendants support Muhammad Ghazni ?
 * Moreover some accounts assert Qutb Shah came with 6 or nine sons from Herat, and others say he married many Hindi women , whose sons took their mothers names ? Is it a practice to take on Mothers name instead of fathers ? Those names are available and names of many Awan sub tribes are available in Ibbetson's book , as Awans were following those names till early this century , before taking on Arab names in recent years.
 * Lastly the army's that came with Ghazni were indigenous and Central Asian tribes  and not Arab as this information is widely available in many reliable sources as you have also mentioned and can be provided.
 * These and many more information discussed on this page should be incorporated into the article.

Thanks inforthefire. I agree with you and BTW to take mothers names is Israellite custom as mentioned by Mr. Zarri Gul but i guess all the local people who converted to Islam during Ghaznavi era got the title of Awan after providing his army with domestic support. that are true meaning of Helper and because those were not from a single community so they jointly shared the title of Awan. another Qutub ud din Hussain (a turk slave and adopted son of Muhammad Ghouri)we find accompanying Ghouri and become first Subedar of  Lahore. Alamsherkhan (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to "Mahmud Ghazni attacks on Shia in Multan"

 * Warefare is a matter of practical art. By allying himself with Raja Anandapala, the Abul Fatah Daud of Multan, had given great offence to Mahmud. Moreover, as a preliminary to the conquest of Multan, Mahmud led an expedition to Bhera on the left bank of the Jhelum. Mahmud felt that without occupying the Punjab he could not hope to penetrate into the heart of Hindustan. Abul Fatah Daud of Multan was not simple Shia but became Qaramthian who are most famous  for their revolt against the Abbasid Caliphate, and according Ishwari Prasad, he was  heretic ruler of Multan.


 * Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah (d. 322/934) had ten sons. 1.Hassan, 2. Abdullah,  3. Abu Hashim,  4. Jaffar-ul- Akbar, 5. Hamza, 6. Ali from first wife, 7. Jaffar Asghar, 8. Awn, from second wife, and 9. Qasim, 10. Abrahim from third wife. You must tell us by the authentic and reliable sources that which of these 10 sons and their descendants were followers of Kaysanites Shia.


 * Writing about Mahmood, Edward Gibbon, in Vol.5 of his Decline and fall of Roman Empire, writes that “His father Sebectagi was the slave of the slave of the slave of the commander of the faithful.” Alp Tigin was a founder of the state of Ghazna. He had risen from a mercenary to the Governor of Khorasan . When the caliph Mansur I was elected by the court ministers, and having backed the wrong candidate Alptigin retired from Khurasan to Ghazna, and captured it,  and established his independence. He was succeeded in 975 briefly by his son and then, upon his death in, 977 by son-in-law Sebük Tigin; who would become the founder of the Ghaznavid Empire. Qutb Haider Shah’ father Attah Allah Ghazi  was a commander of SebükTigin. It was a matter of great pride for Sebük Tigin that a son of saintly family was his commander. For Mahmood of Ghazni and Qutb Shah it was a matter of family relations, and not Shia Sunni poit of view. The sister of Mahmood of Ghazni was married to Salar Sahu, the brother of  Qutb Shah.

Cheers Averroist (talk) 08:12, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to Averroist from Alamsherkhan

Alamsherkhan (talk) 00:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)Sir. Do you know how many options/routes Mehmood was having to reach Multan? why every conquerer chosen Khyber Pass? do you know the reason? First you need to know that, to understand the reason behind his expedition to Bhera. Okay if we accept your point that Mehmood left Awan's at Bhera to protect Punjab then why Mehammad of Ghore again needed to conquer Punjab. you mean Awan's fail to keep occupation or they were not present?. The claim of Qutab shah/ Qutab haider ancestory does not match with growth rate with any of ethnic group of the region. if nine head got multiplied to 4 Million heads then  how much Baluch and Afghans were with Mehmood? How much should be their population today? Baluch got 6 times share as compare to Awan's. What was the rank of their ancestor? Was he General of General of General of General? alamsherkhan.

Alamsherkhan (talk) 00:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)Muhammad Hanfiyya and his children were Shia and Majority of Awan's are not Shia so even If Muhammad Hanfiyya was having 200 Sons what it have concern with this topic? or you want to claim the Mehmood Ghaznavi had converted them by force? Mehmood sister was married to Abu Hasan Mamoon of Khewarzm during year 1015 and it is recorded in history. not to the Qutab Haider. When Altutmash sent expedition to Bhera, historian mention Maliks and Niazi's but didn't mention Awan as tribe. similarly when King Babur personnaly led the expedition to Bhera with his army ,in his zafer nama  he mention that Maliks are younger brothers of Gakarrs but he kept silent on the issue of title. How 200 years later this title come to the knowledge of British officers. This prove that Use of the Title of Awan started after Babur and the character of Haider Salar in an implanted is to serve sectarian cause.. Alamsherkhan

Alamsherkhan (talk) 00:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)okay first of all let us find 4 million decendant of founder of "Chisht sSilsala". He and Qutan shah were of same age so both decendant must be equal? Tell where those of his decendants lives at Pakistan or Afghanistan? one after another lie. Alamsher khan

Response to Averroist from Intothefire
 * We know that none of the Ghazvanid were Arabs including Mahmud Ghazni, Alptigin , Sebuktigin . ( Coincidentally the name of the first Buddhist Turk Shahi was Barahatakin)
 * I have provided valid citations to clearly illustrate that Herat was being ruled by Samanid kings when it was  was captured by the Ghaznavids . Qutub Shah was not the Samanid king or  Governor of Herat.
 * The book you keep referring to Mir-dt-i Masudi does not mention Qutub Shah or the Awans.


 * I reckon that you are deducing that a  Qutb Haider Shah is the same as Qutub Shah of the Awans, we are discussing here, and that he was an Arab , descended  from Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya son of Hazrat Ali (although I couldn't see this connection mentioned in the book but I may have missed it ..... please provide the page number ) . And according to you that although Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya is a revered Shia personage , and Qutub Shah who is stated to be from his line of descendants was not a Shia but a Sunni


 * Incidently in the Shajrah provided by 119.153.148.127 the immediate son of Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya  is Aon sikandar ghazi, however your list of Muhammad Ibn Hanafiya's sons does not list any such person .....and both of your accounts of lineage are without citations from reliable sources.


 * The names of Awan clans recorded late into this century are neither Arab, nor Tajik but patently South Asian . My point simply is Awans are a great people but of South Asian heritage and not Arab.

I do appreciate of course your civil responses, and am sure this discussion will improve the article. CheersIntothefire (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to Intothefire
 * I did not write that Ghazvanid were Arabs.


 * I did not write that Qutub Shah was king or Governor of Herat.


 * I have already stated in an earlier post that there is name of Malik Qutb Haider on the page 62 of the book.. Moreover I have given a complete list of bibliograpy in the other section of this page. there are more than 40 books on this subject.


 * You should know the basic subject and it terms with reference of Islamic History. Should I tell you that Ibn SaaD in his Tebqat, Mehedus Qumi in his Muntehi Al Mal, Ibn Qateeba in his Kitab al Muarif, Masudy in his Tareekh Masoodi, Qazi Muhammad Suelman Mansoor Puri in his Rehmat ul Almin, Maulvi Noor ud Din in his Bab ul Awan, mentioned the name of all these sons of Muhammad bin Hanfia.


 * It is stated in the very article on Kaysanite Shia, Following the establishment of the Abbasids as Caliphs and their disavowal of their Kaysanite origins, the majority of the Kaysanites responded by abandoning the Kaysanite Shi'a sect and instead switched their allegiances to other Shi'a sects. Thereafter, the Kaysanite Shi'a sect became extinct. The Abbasid caliphate was founded in 750, and the time of Qutb Haider Shah was 1000, so Kaysanite Shia sect became extinct 250 years before the time of Qutb Haider Shah.


 * The Shajrah (family tree) provided by 119.153.148.127, is not correct. You should cite or criticize a book or a serious editor of wikipedia, instead of person with only IP address and without any Wikipedia account.


 * With regard to your comments "The names of Awan clans recorded late into this century are neither Arab, nor Tajik but patently South Asian", please tell me that when, and where these names were recorded and by whom.

Cheers Averroist (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * With regard to your older comments "Qutb Shah came with 6 or nine sons from Herat, and others say he married many Hindi women , whose sons took their mothers names ? Is it a practice to take on Mothers name instead of fathers ?", it is stated that it was the custom and practice of Arabs. The very name of Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah was named after mother. Here are few lines from Wikipedia,  "Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah was born in Medina about 633 C.E (though also said to be during Umar's era), the third of Ali's sons.  He was called Ibn al-Hanafiyyah after his mother, Khawlah bint Ja'far; she was known as Hanafiyyah after her tribe Banu Hanifah".

Hindu (or South Asian or Indian) names of various Awan clans listed in Ibbetson survey reports
Response to Averroist from Intothefire

Averroist you have asked me in your last post- With regard to your comments "The names of Awan clans recorded late into this century are neither Arab, nor Tajik but patently South Asian", please tell me that when, and where these names were recorded and by whom.


 * To specifically answer your question :Here are a few selected lines from from Page 25 to page 28 Vol II In the Book "A Glossary of the Tribes and castes of the Punjab and North -West Frontier Province compiled by AH ROSE and based on the Census Report for the Punjab 1883, by Sir Denzil Ibbetson and the census report for the Punjab 1892 by Sir Edward Maclagan . Published By the Asian Educational Services.

A)Ϊ One of his descendants was Khattar, founder of the Khattars of Attock. ‏ B)The originally Hindu Character of these names is patent, and not explained away by the tradition that Chauhan and Khokhar took their mother’s name.

C)In Gujrat tradition gives Qutb Shah three wives, from whom sprang the Khokhars and the four Muhins or clans of the Awans. By Barth, his first wife, he had a son named Khokhar: by Sahd, he had Khurara or Gurara: and by Fateh Khatun, three sons – Kalan, Chauhan and Kundan.

D)These four clans are again divided into numerous septa, often bearing eponymous names, but sometimes the names of Gujar, Jat and other tribal septs appear. Thus in Sialkot * the Awns are said to be divided into 24 muhins. But in Gujrat the Khurara clan comprises 21 sub-divisions, including such names as jalap and Bhakri: the Kalang comprise 43 sub-divisions, including Dudial, Andar, Papin and others: the Chauhans have three stepts sons Ludain, Bhusin and Ghuttar: and the Kundan Chechi, Mahr, Malka, Mayan, Puchal and Saroia. Few of these look like Muhammadan patronymics. Note - The Awans in Kaputhala are said to have the gots:- Kalgan (really a muhin, Rai Dul, Ghalli, Jand, Bagewali, Jaspal, KhoKhar, Gobu or Gulistan, Harpal and Khor Joti.

E) The Customary Law of this District (Volume XIV) p. 3, gives the following list of Awan sub-class:- 1 Bagwal.......		9 Harpal.......		17 Mangar, 2 Bajar........		10 Jalkhuh.....		18 Mirza, 3 Biddar.......		11 Jand........		19 Pappan 4 Chandhar.....		12 Jhan .......		20 Ropar 5 Chhaila......		13 Khambre ....		21 Salhi 6 Dhingle......		14 Kharana.....		22 Sangwal 7 Ghulle.......		15 Malka.......		23 Saroya 8 Gorare...... 		16 Mandu.......		24 Wadhal Those in italics are returned as Khurara in Gujrat. Nos. 1,2,3,9,11,14,22 and 24 are classed as Kalgan.

''Avveroist The list of Names is vast and documented in reliable sources by many. These include for example Khattar, Khokhar ,Khurana , Chauhan , Kundan, Harpal , and many more are existing clans in both Hindu/Sikh  and Muslims till today '' Intothefire (talk) 09:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Response to Intothefire
 * You should read the complete book, and then cite from it. Awan is the most respectable and historical tribe of Arab origin of ancient repute. Therefore, it is (and it was) the desire of many tribes to claim connection with them. For other tribes, who cannot claim this connection always insist on the origin of Awan tribe as their own branch. Jats, Hindus, and even Pashtun, as you and Alamsherkhan are insisting. Now let us read the book again;

The Khattars are a tribe which claims kinship with the Awans, and to be, like them and the western Khokhars descended from one of the sons of Qutb Shah Qur^shi of Ghazni. '''But the Awans do not always admit the relationship.. '''

that Awans, "looks upon the Khattars as an inferior section of the tribe to whom he will not give his daughters in marriage".

the Khokhars have set up a claim to be descended from Muhammad the eldest son of Qutb Shah of Ghaznl, the traditional ancestor of the Awans.

When Sir Denzil Ibbetson wrrtes that but the Awans do not always admit the relationship or Awans, looks upon the Khattars or Khokars (or we can made other tribes) as an inferior section of the tribe, what does it mean.

Averroist (talk) 21:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Population of Awan tribe
One editor Alamsherkhan has given the population of Awan tribe as 3.5 millions in this discussion page. He did not cite any reference for this figure.

The Census of the Punjab Province was carried out in 1881 by Sir Denzil Ibbetson of the Indian Civil Service and his Report on the Census was published in 1883. The Report has always been recognized as one of the most remarkable official publications in India, and a work of the greatest value both from the administrative and from the literary and scientific point of view. It at once attracted widespread attention, more especially in view of the copious information which it provided regarding the people of the Province, and a separate volume was issued in 1883, under the title of “Punjab Ethnography” which contained a reprint of those portions of the Report which dealt with the Religions, the Languages, and the Races, Castes and Tribes of the people.

The volume "Panjab Castes"reproduces a portion only, but that is the most important portion, of the original Report,namely the chapter on the Races, Castes and Tribes of the Punjab. In this volume, Sir Denzil Ibbetson writes the details of Awan clans as following:

This was the population of Awan in 1883. Now in 2011, how much will be the population of Awan? Please note that in British period, specially in the Punjab, the jobs in the Army was reserved only for Martial races. The Awans were also amongst those the British considered to be "Martial Race". So many many people declared themselves Awans in order to become soldiers. The landed gentry of Awans did not object and also supported their claim to provide British government maximum army for their own political interests. So the original Awans were very few than this figure.

Regards Averroist (talk) 10:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Population of Awan's reply to Averriost

Alamsherkhan (talk) 12:32, 6 August 2011 (UTC)I will reply this topic on Tuesday. Again your table prove that we are discussing Khokhar as your table show the population of Khokhar at top. A lot of Awan clan are missing in your Table. The available information of population at Sargodha can bring a surprise for you .Sargodha District is administratively divided into Six Tehsils, which contain a total of 161 Union Councils[2], population according to the 1998 census of Pakistan[3]: '''Total Population 3'086'000'0 No. of Unions 161 . Total Population according to population census of  district  Sargodha, Chakwal, Jehlum, Khushab and attock (Awan  majority)is  3,086,000, 1,083,000, 1,100,000, 1,100,000, 1,274,000 accordingly (7.5 Million). I am not including Rawalpindi and Mianwali. So if you consider these districts with  Majority Awan population then what population you expect out of 7.5 Million count of heads  regards Alamsherkhan

Response to Alamsherkhan

This table is not prepared by me but was made by Sir Denzil Ibbetson. I know that from where you made copy and paste the table mentione by you. It is from the article of Sargodha District on Wikipedia, and, it is total population of Sargodha, not only of Awan tribe. You claim that you know the area. Do you mean that the whole Sargodha is city of only Awan tribe. Our old British officers were more able administrator than us, and they provided the details of every tribe and caste in details. The old name of Sargodha was Shahpur Here are few lines from The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Vol XII;p.364.

Baluchi's, 8865 ; Sayyids, 8625 ; Shaikhs,  7499 ; Pathans,  3076 ; Mughals, 2335, Rajput,  82,290; Awan,  48,485;, Jat, 34,508 ; Chuhra,  28,297; Julaha,  22,472; Muchi,  15,314; Kumbhar, 11,769; Machhi, 11,156; Tarkhan, 10,270;Khokhar, 10,265 ; Arain, 8574 ;Mirasi, 8344 ; Nai, 7541 ; Dhobi, 5624 ; Kassab, 5202; Lobar, 5074; Sonar, 3597;Teli, 2112.Brahman, 5462;Arora, 35,017; and Khattri, 15,015.

Here the population of Awan were 48,485 in the end of 19th century. Almost half of total population of Awan i.e., 93,694. Please note that the main homeland of Awan, Soon Sakesar Valley is also included in Sargodha or in old time it was in the administrative division of Shahpur. Again the original Awans were very few than this figure.

Cheers! Averroist (talk) 15:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC). Alamsherkhan (talk) 13:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC) First of all, let me pray for your health. You calmly read my comments. yeah i got this info form internet. Do you want to say figures of population census reports are not correct? or you have objection on getting information from internet. Sir i am crying on the wisdom of your so called  good administrators. Rajput are 82,290 but they don't tell us which clan they belong and who are the people claiming themselves Rajput? . Whether is does not prove that those were of the Maliks who does not wanted themselves to mentioned as Awan's and instead they  insisted to got listed as Rajputs? We see that the report let us know the count of heads of Rajput clans such as Jats, Aroras , Arian and Khokhars seperately. What a pitty 25% population of the district which got listed as workers without adding them to any of the existing caste. Now come on and let us know today which tribe enjoy the majority population at Sargodha?and how much Awan's living there. Again uptill that census report Khokhar were not considering themselves Awan's and were keeping their seperate identity so what about your claim regarding Khokhar? Even Sayyed uptill these census were not supporting the Hashiyat claim of Awan's. and the people who were declared worker class could be of any tribe. So where is your point? Are these report worthy enough which gave open hand to all to get themselves attached with any tribe without any evidence. Please try to read the note where he clearly mentioned that many of district offices does not co-operated with him and specially he mentioned district officer Kohat. try to find the page for the census of Kohat district in your book. regards alamsherkhan