Talk:Axis powers/Archive 13

Missing lots
Where is Vichy France, Iraq, Manchuako, and Mengjiang. 136.33.235.64 (talk) 01:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Vichy France one could argue was not part of the Axis. They were collaborating with the Germans, yes, but they weren't military participating against the Allies and the US and UK still had embassies to Vichy until 1941. They "fought" against Vichy forces in operation Torch, but that still doesn't mean they became a part of the Axis. In fact, shortly after Torch, the Germans just ended Vichy's existence, due to most French generals in Africa defecting to the Allies.
 * Iraq was supported by Germany, Italy and Vichy but they never signed an official treaty or anything with regards to joining the Axis.
 * Manchukuo and Mengjiang, you might as well consider these to be colonies. As the map states, it says "Axis powers and their colonies". Havzali (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Manchukuo and Mengjiang, you might as well consider these to be colonies. As the map states, it says "Axis powers and their colonies". Havzali (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Manchukuo and Mengjiang, you might as well consider these to be colonies. As the map states, it says "Axis powers and their colonies". Havzali (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The real answer to this is: where is the sourcing identifying these places explicitly as Axis powers? Remember that the subject of this article is the Axis powers, not (primarily anyway) the areas they controlled through local puppets, or had deals with. For example, was Iraq ever actually a member of the Axis, rather than just briefly supported by the Axis? The sourcing present in the article doesn't seem to say so. Instead it explicitly points out that the Iraqi leaders never entered a formal alliance with the Axis, and that Italy did not want an alliance with Arab states. We even have two-three sources that list the Axis Powers but don't include these places - surely if they were actually Axis powers, then they would have been included by these sources.
 * In Paradox games and elsewhere, these places could all be members of the Axis, but this is not a Paradox game, this is an encyclopaedia where we summarise what is said in reliable secondary sources, and we should not include places as having been Axis powers without any sources explicitly saying so. FOARP (talk) 10:58, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

inaccuracies in the map
The main map at the start of the article shows a tiny sliver of land east of india as being a separate entity as part of the Axis. Unless this is some rebel movement i don't know about, I suggest it be removed and made part of British India.

Also, the Vichy French borders are shown, but Vichy France itself is colored as though it were part of the Allies. Should it not be the opposite (or neutral for that matter)? Havzali (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that the map is bad and should probably be replaced, preferably with a public domain image rather than something editor-created. FOARP (talk) 10:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Should we add a "until September 1943" to Italy?
The official Kingdom of Italy government surrendered to the Allies in September 3, 1943. 1 month later, they switched sides to the Allies by declaring war on Germany. My suggestion would be to change the article to say:

"Kingdom of Italy (until September 1943)" CerealContainer (talk) 21:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * There already is a footnote that explains the Italian surrender to the Allies (and the subsequent creation of the Italian Social Republic by Germany). Havzali (talk) 23:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Additionally, every one of the Axis powers was a member of the Axis until a specific date. A number of Axis members (e.g., Finland, Bulgaria, and Romania, as well as Italy) effectively fought on both sides. Why single out Italy? And why only the end-date, why not include the joining date as well?
 * The article already explains these things. We just don't put them in the infobox (which is the thing that people commenting here are almost universally responding to) because that is not what the infobox is for. The infobox is for presenting very basic and immediate data, including which countries are identified by reliable source as Axis powers because that is the subject of this article . FOARP (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2023
Finland was not in the Axis it just worked with it please edit this Crewe50 (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * There's no sense of "in the Axis" that applies to all the rest but not Finland. Finland was at war with the Soviets and the British. German and Finnish troops fought side by side. Finland signed the same kind of armistice and peace terms as the other lesser Axis powers, admitting to having been "an ally of Hitlerite Germany". It is misconception that Finland was somehow in a different class from Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania. Srnec (talk) 03:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Crewe50 - Basically what @Srnec said, plus plenty of reliable sources identify Finland as a member of the Axis, whereas few explicitly state that it wasn't and that appears to be a minority point of view (see, e.g., the newspaper poll of Finnish historians cited in the article). To the extent that the official position of the Finnish wartime government that they were only "co-belligerents" actually matters, this is covered extensively in the article and is also mentioned in a footnote in the infobox. Suffice it to say that it is not only the government that Finland had 80 years ago that gets to decide this, but Finnish post-war governments (who signed a treaty saying they had been an ally of Nazi Germany), historians (Finnish and non-Finnish) also took a point of view on this.
 * I also have to note that all of this stuff about the infobox is answered in depth already in the FAQ and has been discussed many, many times on here. The key discussion was this one where there was a consensus to remove the "co-belligerent" class entirely as it was not sourced. FOARP (talk) 09:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
 * We go by what wp:rs say. Slatersteven (talk) 12:33, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Co-Belligerents section?
Co-Belligerents to the axis powers (Iraq and Vichy France) should be mentioned in the info box like how Co-Belligerents of the allies are mentioned in their info box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salfanto (talk • contribs) 16:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)


 * No. This article is about the Axis Powers. Therefore, in the infobox, it lists the Axis powers, not countries that weren't Axis powers.
 * "Co-belligerents of the Axis powers" wasn't, historically, a thing. The only country whose wartime government claimed to have been a "co-belligerent" of the Axis was Finland, but this was seen as a position taken simply for propaganda purposes even at the time, was denied by the post-war government of Finland and the Allies, and is not a position agreed with even by the majority of Finnish historians surveyed on the subject, let alone those in other countries. Numerous sources simply identify Finland as having been an Axis country.
 * Specifically in the case of Vichy France and Iraq, does any source actually describe these places as "co-belligerents"? Let alone "co-belligerents of the Axis powers"? FOARP (talk) 11:12, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. Führer Directive No. 30 ordered German support for Iraq's Arab nationalists. In Vichy France's case, they fought against the allies in North Africa, Syria and Lebanon and did "anti-partisan" work in occupied france. Salfanto (talk) 15:04, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Führer Directive No. 30 isn't a source for that. A secondary source specifically referencing "co-Bellierants" is needed. DeCausa (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Salfanto - Führer Directive No. 30 ordered German support for Iraq's Arab nationalists - Führer Directive No. 30 was not an alliance of any kind. It also did not confer any particular status on the recipients of the aid granted under it. Führer Directive No. 30 also was explicitly compared the aid being given to Iraq to that given to Spain - was Spain also an Axis member? Or even a co-belligerent of the Axis?
 * WW2 is possibly the most written-about part of global history. If any country had been a memeber of the Axis, secondary sources would say as much without caveats. If there is not a single secondary source explicitly identifying Iraq as having been a member of the Axis, or even a "co-belligerent" (whatever that would mean in this context), then it is difficult for anyone to make the case that Iraq was an Axis member or "co-belligerent". We have a number of sources that list the Axis powers. They, at most, typically list the countries already in the infobox. None lists Iraq or Vichy France as having been an Axis power.
 * The topic of this article is "the Axis Powers". There is no reason to list countries that were not Axis Powers in the infobox. This is a topic that has been absolutely done to death on this page, particularly as once Iraq and Vichy France were added, people inevitably tried to add the Soviet Union (who actually did sign an alliance with Germany, and attacked a member of the Allies). See particularly the discussions linked in the FAQ above.  FOARP (talk) 15:04, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Vatican City (Holy See)
The section #Manchuria (Manchukuo) states that "Other countries who recognized the State were the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, El Salvador, and Vatican City."

However, the Manchukuo article states (see history for attribution):

"In the 1940s the Vatican established full diplomatic relations with Japan, but it resisted Japanese and Italian pressure to recognize Manchukuo and the Nanking regime."

This seems like a contradiction, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Henry James Gomerson (talk) 11:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Henry James Gomerson - Agreed. Our article on Manchukuo explains that this is a misimpression that came from the Bertolucci film, The Last Emperor. This source and this source appear to confirm that the Vatican did not recognise Manchukuo. No source is given on this page for the diplomatic relations of Manchukuo so you can simply delete the unsourced material. FOARP (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Henry James Gomerson (talk) 13:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)