Talk:Ayn Rand/Archive 1

I would like to use the photograph (publicity photo) of Ayn Rand for a entry in another Wikipedia. Is this picture Public Domain?

Quote from the article: "Her novels were based upon the archetype of the "Randian hero", a man whose genius leads others to reject him, but who nonetheless perseveres to prove himself superior." Unquote
 * Can anyone provide any evidence of the boldface part? Having read all of Ayn Rand's fiction, I am unable to find a single "Randian hero" who tries to prove their superiority to anyone. Personally, I think the best way to characteize her novels are her own statements, to the effect that her novels aim to portray heroic people as "ends in themseleves".
 * If no one can provide evidence to the contrary I will change the article text in about a weeks' time.

For the record, regarding the "second most influential book" claim for Atlas Shrugged, here is what the FAQ from the Objectivist Reference Center says:
 * No one knows exactly how influential Atlas Shrugged is, because there has never been a proper study done to check. The "second most influential" claim comes from a Survey of Lifetime Reading Habits conducted in 1991 by the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress. Printed surveys were sent to members of the Club, asking them what books had most influenced their own lives. A little over 2,000 responses were received. The Bible ranked first, and Atlas Shrugged ranked a distant second. Because the survey targeted an audience of book lovers (members of the Club) and an active effort was required to mail in a response, it is likely that the results were skewed towards people who were influenced especially strongly by a particular book. Such a result cannot be reliably interpreted as reflecting the entire US population, although enthusiastic promoters of the novel sometimes make such claims. (The survey is also often inaccurately described as a "poll" or "study," and various incorrect sources are cited for it.) {Link}

The phrase "While he claims to be promoting and naturally extending her philosophy, some scholars see him as espousing his own philosophy, one that some argue Rand herself may not have agreed with were she still alive." should be removed in its entirety unless someone can provide actual references which would support the statement as fact. This appears to be a smear attempt on Peikoff and nothing more, given the context and the content of the following paragraph. Those who pay attention to the placement of this and the following argument might agree that it may only serve to coerce the reader into believing that Peikoff is in the wrong, and many who have read Ayn Rand works work would readily say otherwise.


 * I have heard this accusation made before, but don't recall where. I don't think including this in the article is a smear attempt, but is factual, reporting a valid POV that somebody has said about Peikoff. Just giving my input, I didn't write the article material. ChessPlayer 01:57, 9 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a particularly controversial accusation&mdash;among philosophers who follow in a vaguely Objectivist tradition, many feel that Peikoff is extending Rand's philosophy in one possible way, but obviously not everyone agrees it's the proper way. He obviously does something other than merely restating exactly what Rand said, and this is a controversial enough area that anything he does is going to be challenged by others.  So I think it's fairly neutral to say that he claims to be the heir to her intellectual tradition, but that many scholars see him as more of as independent philosopher who happens to be greatly inspired by her. --Delirium 02:00, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

I've noticed Ayn Rand works being modified, including the original tenets of Objectivism. has anyone considered documenting "Objectvism: Original Philosophy" ? SEWilson


 * The claim that Dr. Peikoff somehow differs in his philosophy is refuted by Ayn Rand&#8217;s own statements and actions. Dr. Peikoff posthumously gave a speech in her name and at her request (&#8220;The Sanction of the Victims&#8221;, 1982) worked on a number of her papers, also at her request, and inherited all her works, with instructions to dispose of them as he wished.  This is from Ayn Rand&#8217;s introduction to Dr. Peikoff&#8217;s &#8220;The Ominous Parallels,&#8221; written two years before her death:
 * "It gives me great pleasure to introduce the first book by an Objectivist philosopher other than myself. Perhaps the best recommendation I can give this book- and its author, Dr. Leonard Peikoff &#8211; is to say that it and he are not of today&#8217;s cultural mainstream.  They will be part of tomorrows.&#8221;


 * The fact that Ayn Rand only used the term &#8220;Objectivist&#8221; to refer to someone who agreed with her philosophy in it&#8217;s entirety, and the fact that Dr. Peikoff has delineated his original philosophic work from Ayn Rand&#8217;s is a good indication that neither claim should be made without a link to factual references for any such claims.

--GreedyCapitalist 06:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I suggest the external links for the books etc. should be moved to the page on those books (for those which there are pages for). -- Sam

Regarding the statement that it is "widely but falsely believed" that Rand used the term "intellectual heir" to describe Peikoff: a reference or external link to material indicating why a popularly held view is false would be helpful. -- Rethunk

Copied over from Pages needing attention

Discussion taken from Votes for deletion Also (moved from below)
 * Atlas Shrugged/United States
 * Basically states that the action in Atlas Shrugged took place in the US. BTW, does every chapter of Atlas Shrugged really require a separate wikipedia entry??? Chas zzz brown 22:25 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)
 * Holey Moley! There are 209 articles on Atlas Shrugged, including separate articles on each section of each chapter; plus endless stub reference articles such as Atlas Shrugged/Atlantic Ocean and Atlas Shrugged/Food (liverwurst, canapes, and something else). Looks like a project someone started, then (naturally) got tired of. Can't imagine anyone filling out any of the stubs.
 * Can't imagine anyone refactoring this mess either. Ortolan88
 * look kinda interesting to me, be a shame to delete what appears to be a pretty good breakdown of the book Lir 15:55 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)
 * Nobody's really suggesting deleting anything, just commenting on what a mess it is. When little fragments of an article go flying off into their own articles, the reader is not being well served.  Here,   an important point about the novel, its setting and what it means, has turned into an separate independent article.  The article on the novel is made less informative; the separate article is nearly worthless outside the context of the discussion of the novel.  I thought reading Ayn Rand was supposed to make one ruthlessly logical.  Guess not. Ortolan88
 * This complex of articles about a cult novel needs a lot of work to reduce it from its 209 articles. The only information on Atlas Shrugged/Waiter is that he served drinks. Does that qualify him to be a brain surgeon? Eclecticology
 * Atlas Shrugged - the entire set of Atlas Shrugged/... articles need to be sorted out.
 * This set should be debated: what to do with it? There also seem to be very funky links from this set, made by the original author. For instance, the link "Lilan" in Atlas Shrugged/Section181 links to Lillian Todaro. olivier 09:50 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)
 * I will help sort this mess out when/if we agree what to do about it. Koyaanis Qatsi
 * I've consolidated all the Character stubs into Characters in Atlas Shrugged and Minor Characters in Atlas Shrugged. Catherine
 * If my counting method is correct, there's now about 80 non-redirect Atlas Shrugged articles. Was it really my namesake Tim Shell who created all those articles? -- Tim Starling 11:48 Mar 15, 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's Tim Shell's baby, but don't be hard on him. The Atlas Shrugged pages date back to the very beginning of Wikipedia, before anyone really knew how things would shape up. They were an experiment, and proved difficult for Wikipedia to digest. And, that reminds me of another set of pages to be added here... -- Stephen Gilbert 18:42 Mar 21, 2003 (UTC)

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Pronunciation of Ayn is not obvious from the spelling. So does it rhyme with "pine" or is it "eye-unn"?
 * I've never heard it pronounced any other way than exactly like "Ann". But then again I have no reference to back that up. - Hephaestos 21:58, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Ayn is pronounced like it rhymes with "mine". Bedevere 05:27, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I was just curious where you learned that. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I've usually heard "ann", although clearly it is spelt differently. M123 05:33, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * That can be found in many places. --Wik 05:39, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)


 * I originally heard the Ayn/Mine thing on NPR, but I know that it's true because this is how everyone who would know pronounces it from Nathaniel Branden to various ARI lecturers that I've heard. Bedevere 21:27, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Or like the German "ein". orthogonal 01:46, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

From article: "Branden's relationship with Rand eventually took on romantic aspects, though they were both married at the time."

Ayn Rand would hardly respect such euphemism. According to Barbara Branden's book, Rand regularly ordered O'Connor out of their apartment so that she and Nathaniel Branden could have sex, with the explaination that to O'Connor that her ideology required it. orthogonal 01:46, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This parallels http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/atlasshrugged/context.html a lot:

''In 1925, she was permitted by the Soviet government to leave the USSR briefly to visit her relatives in America. Although she was only allowed a brief visit, she was resolute never to return to Russia. When she arrived in America, at the age of 21, she stayed with relatives in Chicago for 6 months before moving to Hollywood to become a screenwriter.'' (Wikipedia)

vs.

''In 1925, Rand obtained a temporary visa to visit relatives in the United States. She intended never to return to her homeland. After living for six months with relatives in Chicago, she obtained an extension of her visa and went to Hollywood to pursue a career as a screenwriter.'' (sparknotes)

Coincidence? Kwertii 11:38, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

While I was in the mind to do the edit myself, it seemed a little presumptuous. But I do think it's important to add a note somewhere that many people, including just about every philosophy professor I've ever had, think that Ayn Rand is an entirely unimportant philosopher, that Objectivism, at its best, is watered down Nietzche, and at its worst, is dangerous for its readers...

And as far as I'm concerned, philosophy aside, Atlas Shrugged is not a particularily good book.

Now, I'm not suggesting that we deface Ayn Rand here, but only add a few notes as to her position in a community (the philosophic/academic) which many might be confused into thinking she was an important part of.


 * I don't know enough philosophy to know if you're right, but go ahead and make the change. The worst thing that happens is that someone disagrees with you, and then you two can work things out.  It would be helpful if you created an account, just so people would have a pseudonym to attach to your edits--it's quick, free and anonymous.  Best, Meelar 16:54, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * P.S. We encourage you to be bold in editing.


 * By all means please be bold in editing. I have gathered the same impression as you have, but I wonder if it is not perhaps influenced by a dislike for her philosophy? I know it might be difficult, but it would be helpful if you could cite some sources to whatever you decide to write, instead of being vague. That would help the page become more NPOV.ChessPlayer 22:42, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * There will always be professors who disagree with Rand but the fact is that most of their reasons are superficial. I would read the section on Rand under pseudophilosophy for an overview on why they disagree with them. (Some do so simply because she set forth a philosophy in fictional novels.)


 * In addition, there is an Ayn Rand branch of the American Philisophical Association, a Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, and prominent Objectivists holding chairs at colleges (i.e. Tara Smith of the University of Texas, among others). Any attempt to discredit Rand's philosophy based on the fact that professors don't agree with her is subjective at best and a fallacy in logic and deserves to be treated as such if it is to be mentioned in the article at all. Redfarmer 05:28, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think it would also be helpful to note her writing style: verbose, tedious, and frequently inscrutable. Brevity was not one of Rand's virtues, and the validity of Objectivism aside her works were frequently far longer and more self-important than they otherwise needed to be. I went back and re-read "The Fountainhead" a couple of years ago, and was amazed when I realized that Tooey's final monologue is something like 60 pages long. Even assuming that she wasn't shooting for a realistic situation, the points she make therein are tortuous, poorly constructed, and are more often than not endless variations upon the same theme.


 * That's clearly your POV, though -- a lot of people (not necessarily myself) would disagree with you. Neilc 14:37, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)