Talk:Ayumi Hamasaki/Archive 2

Sales
Please do not post false information. She is not the fourth highest selling music act from Japan.

There are many Japanese musicians (including solo female musicians) that have sold more records and singles than Ayumi Hamasaki.

I am using one of my favorites as an example, and giving an English reference dated back in 1989 when Hibari Misora died.

English website. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE7DA1E3EF936A15755C0A96F948260

She had sold around 70 million albums before the 1990's, and her sales of singles are considerably higher than Ayumi Hamasaki's. This was 20 years ago, and she has sold much more than that nowadays.

I mean no offense to Ayumi Hamasaki fans, but it is wrong to make such statements. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 12:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Those claims are sourced from an official sales counting site, so I'm going to let them stay there until you could prove that they are wrong. Aran|heru|nar 14:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think some editors should learn to read Japanese before posting references. Michiya Mihasi is Japan's highest selling musician with an estimate of 160 million records sold. He became the first Japanese musician to break the 100 million sales mark in 1983. This achievement is mentioned in his profile at Oricon.

Michiya Mihasi's artist page at Oricon. 

Many of the Oricon references have been misinterperted. 220.253.109.122 (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You can learn what you little pumpkin Japanese called "etiquette". Go drink a cup of tea. Aran|heru|nar 18:24, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That was a little rude, I'm sorry. Even if Hibari Misora did sell more than Ayumi did, she's long dead now. Ayumi is still alive. That should count for something. Plus, Ayumi still sold a lot so she should still be considered one of the top-selling Japanese female artists... but I see that somebody already did the honors and slipped that in the lead. It says she is one of the most popular pop singers, and the fourth best-selling Japanese artist in history. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 19:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I misunderstood for a bit there. Let me catch myself now, I thought Mr. Anonymous was trying to dispute the claim that she is the best-selling Japanese singer. Now I see that nobody said such a thing. He actually said that she is not the fourth best-selling singer in Japan. I went and checked out the sources that he provided. However, I believe that the list of the best-selling singers only counts those that are still living. Otherwise, there'd be people from way back and then Hamasaki and Amuro would be at around number twenty, and then the top five would be people who've long since decomposed. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 19:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Lady Galaxy. By the way, I never removed how many records Ayumi has sold. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, but currently it's not possible to edit this article at all. But you're welcome. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 03:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is good to see an intelligent response for once, and not some rapid fan wanting to protect some statement. 220.253.109.122 (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

See the Japanese wikipedia's article about the late Mihashi. He had gained remarkable industrial success in the latter half of 1950s and the former half of 1960s, the era Japan hadn't any hit parade. Oricon, the most eminent Japanese record chart started publishing in January 1968. Like the late Hibari Misora,however, his popularity as a recording artist had somewhat declined in the '70s and '80s. It is natural that statement of Oricon indicates different results--- zoizoiz2 03:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That is not what it says at all (furthermore, it is just another Wikipedia article) It states that he reinvented himself in the 1970's and gained popularity with people of all ages, earning the nickname Mitchie. It then says that his loud voice is still popular. Oricon is just a marketing company, with around 2000 retail partners (which does not incude many of the major retailers) and do not receive sales data from the record labels. There are other companies in Japan, which provide the same service, however they are partners with different outlets (around 1500, per company) The only companies that know how many records an artist is selling/shipping, are the record labels that sign them. 220.253.40.207 (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hibari Misora indeed had sold around 70 million records. But Ayumi Hamasaki is the fourth highest "CD" selling musician from Japan. Also Oricon only keep track of physical CD/DVD albums. — ■ ~∀SÐFﾑｻ~ ■ =]  Babashi? antenna? 05:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Records is short for recordings, it includes any format. Hibari Misora has sold around 100 million records to date, she had sold around 70 million records 20 years ago! I would track down sales data for artists like YMO, who have sold much more than Ayumi, but there is no need. Do not post misleading information into articles. 220.253.146.104 (talk) 20:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no source that the mid-20th century's Japanese legendary singer's singles have sold 30 million units since her death in 17 years ago. There is no deceased artist who has received such a tremendous commercial success after he or she died. If she has really sold such a enormous amounts of singles and albums after her death, her name must have appeared on the Japanese record chart frequently like other modern successful living musicians such as B'z, Mr. Children, Dreams Come True and Hamasaki.
 * Furthermore, in another statement by Yamaha Music Foundation written in the early 2000s, Columbia Music Entertainment (the record label that Hibari Misora had signed to) have announced that she has sold 40 million units of albums and singles since her debut in the late 1940s. Compared with the New York Times' article which was written in 1989, it seems that this newer Japanese information is more reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoizoiz2 (talk • contribs) 10:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: This has already been corrected below, but again you have deceptively tried to change the meaning of a Japanese source. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 09:06, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That article from Yamaha music is about "the popularity of Hibari Misora does not decline after 10 years of her death" and mentions that her record sales since after her death have been almost 40 million. The second sentence from that source 没後10年を迎えてもなお衰えを知らぬ人気 contradicts everything you said, and the article actually supports my statement, thanks! In addition, her book 20世紀の宝石美空ひばり大全集 mentions she has sold more than 80 million records . I also took the time to find a reference for the record sales of Kazuhiro Moriuchi who is another Japanese musician that has more record sales than Ayumi Hamasaki . Please don't destroy the article. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 02:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to know that boastful statement by record companies are often includes exaggerated information. For instance, Columbia Music Entertainment have announced that Hibari Misora's 1989 single "Kawa no Nagare no You ni" sold more than 1.5 million copies so far. If such a commercial success was true, her single would have been certified at least 4xPlatinum by Recording Industry Association of Japan. However, there is no her name in the following list of million-selling records which were certified by RIAJ since 1989. Your insistence without objective and concrete sources are not sufficient to prove that previous referenced sentences are not truth.---zoizoiz2 03:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Zoizoiz2, I'm amazed at your asinine comments. I guess you don't know how records get certified. If a record company wants a record to be certified, then they provide the Record Industry Association with the shipments data for that record and pay to have it certified. Every year there are many records that can be certified (particularly from previous releases that accumulate sales over time) but the record companies don't have them certified, for many different reasons. Its funny you claim the record companies exaggerate sales information, yet they are the ones that provide the data to get records certified. I have been a bi-linguist for Tower Records Japan for many years. Maybe you should go to university and learn about the recording industry before making such stupid statements. 220.253.8.185 (talk) 03:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Titles or previous works mean nothing in Wikipedia, since anonymity prevents certification. So, try not to issue personal attacks like your last sentence. You got what you wanted, the sentence removed because it was being misused. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 06:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Edit: ReyBrujo, I think I know what you mean now, your comment was difficult to understand since it sounded like you were talking about previous record releases and record certification (I'm assuming you were not referring to that, but rather my profession) Zoizoiz2 has disrupted various articles relating to Japanese music. As for the Record Industry Association, you can find out how they certify records from this website . It is based off shipment data provided by the record labels for when they want a record certified. Thanks for providing a good laugh Zoizoiz2. 220.253.8.185 (talk) 12:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the Tokushin Music Report (the record chart you insisted that more reliable than Oricon), Hibari Misora has appeared on its year-end chart only once since 1968, reaching number-72 with her single "Kawa no nagare no you ni" which was released in 1989. Even the most Oricon chart-toppers such as B'z, they managed to have sold more than 60 million copies in the 1990s. Such a successful singer can't have disappeared from the chart at all for many years. In addition, enka is known as the very exclusive genre on the modern music industry in Japan. strikingly declined in the 1990s. Its share is less than 10 percent on the entire Japanese music industry, displaced by more accessible genre described as "J-Pop". If enka-oriented song became became hit,the fact would have prevailed all over Japan. I couldn't resist to doubt that your insistence was lie. Considered from your impolite and arrogant attitude to other editors, you seems to be the very person who have good knowledge of the Japanese music industry. So please explain the reason why such a successful enka-oriented singer had been ignored from the record charts in the 1990s with verifiable source.---zoizoiz2 12:22, 6 January 2008. (UTC)


 * Zoizoiz2, it seems you could be a sock-puppet of Koshi Inaba and Aranherunar. An interesting edit by "Koshi Inaba" on December 18, 2007 to the Michiya Mihashi article where it removes certain information, and then your entry on this talk page shortly after . You have an editing pattern very similar to both those editors. The problem with the reference has already been resolved, and I don't have the time to continue bickering with your spiteful comments (which seem to be related Aranherunar) as I need to return to Japan. In addition, you ignore everything that is written, and provide ridiculous  arguments. I guess you will hate this years Olympics, since Wei Wei will be singing. 220.253.5.116 (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have nothing to do with those editors. The reason why your edits have repeatedly reverted by several users is just because your removals of sentences were excessive.Certainly, the statements you removed are not necessarily proper, but they are worth listing if they were rewritten, because the modern music industry is quite different from the 1960s' ones. Because the Oricon's references are based on the data of last 40 years, your removed statements are not false information at all. Even if Hibari Misora and Michiya Mihashi has really sold such a enormous records to date, most of their records were sold in the earlier decades. I don't know well about Mihashi, but at least about Misora, it is easy to prove that she was not such a notable successful music act after the Oricon was established  You might not admit the fact, but Oricon is regarded as the most reliable company about Japanese music industry by Japanese media and people. Because of its clear verifiability, the charts is also the most appropriate source. Before you ridicule your disliked users with impolite words, You should learn that your insistences are not realistic at all.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoizoiz2 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Zoizoiz2, this is the last time I will reply to you. Hibari Misora has been listed in almost every press release for shareholders by columbia music as a major contributor to sales for that specific period. Here are a few links in English!!, , . There is nothing wrong with Oricon reports, and their chart data was not removed from any Wikipedia article. Your posts have no significance to anything, and appear to be vindictive. You don't know how Oricon or their charts operate, and don't know anything about the Japanese recording industry. The latest financial press release by Columbia music lists five titles by Hibari Misora as major sellers for the company. Maybe you should tell the shareholders of Columbia music that the company lies to them (that is sarcasm) I can't be bothered writing anything else to you, because you are not worth my time. 220.253.2.9 (talk) 13:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I restored the information you removed because Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. We don't care if she is the sixth alive laser disc female best seller or the twentieth best selling recording artist of all times in Japan. We only care about what we can prove and what we cannot. The Oricon article indeed confirms she is the fourth according to their account, which may (as it is apparent) differ with other sources. Therefore, the citation can stay in the article by making a simple clarification: that it is according to Oricon's recount. Articles about games are a good example of this: a reviewer can give a game 10, another a 5, and both are right, as long as you can add a reference for both. You don't remove the "This is the best game ever made" review just because you found another reviewer saying "This game is good but XXX and YYY are better games". Here is the same: We can demonstrate what the article says is not invented by us, but instead conjectured by a reliable source.
 * Because of undue weight, you can add, in the sales or achievements section of the article, note that although Oricon claims her to be all that, there are other artists considered to have sold more, giving examples with each respective reference. This way, we are presenting both points of view and leaving the reader make his or her own conclusions.
 * What I don't like is that the leading has too much information that can be put somewhere else. While it is necessary to note her success, it is not to say every single achievement made in terms of rankings. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This is vandalism known as "Adding known inaccuracies". Those Oricon articles do not say that mate, there was a source provided from the same website to counter-point that information. In addition, this is the English wikipedia and as such, English references are preferred for verifiability (which have already been provided to counter-point misinterpreted non-English references. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 03:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but we accept sources in any languages as long as they come from reliable sources. You presented one in English, yes, but which is not of equal quality because yours talk about the achievements of a singer who passed away and the other the achievements of five active groups (B'z, Mr. Children, Southern All Stars, Ayumi Hamasaki and Dreams Come True). Can't you see the pattern there? Oricon is a reliable source, as far as I know, and from what I read, it is pretty clear that in that page they are sorting and giving Ayumi Hamasaki the fourth place. However, since you seem to know a lot about Oricon, what does, for you, the table mean (you know, the 別後売上枚... one). Why are you so sure they aren't talking about active artists or modern music in that table? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, if you want I can bring someone who really knows Japanese to the discussion to mediate, and someone who knows Wikipedia policies and guidelines to explain who is correct and who is not. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm a native Japanese speaker. So please do point out to me and everyone else where it says that those are the five highest selling Japanese musicians (particulary where it says living/active) and then tell everyone how a news article by the new york times is not a quality reference. The table says "number of sales by other artists" so it would be very interesting to know where you are "verifying" this information. In addition, you are another editor that seems to have trouble reading context, as I never said non-English sources are not accepted on the English Wikipedia. I said they are preferred for verifiability. Maybe you should try reading the policy link you provided. Particulary this sentence "so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." I know my English is not that bad. 220.253.44.239 (talk) 05:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The information is being verified from the table. People just don't have to say "five highest selling Japanese musicians" in the artists article. All they have to say is "Hamasaki Ayumi is the #4 selling artist according to Oricon" and then reference Oricon. That's 100% verifiable according to the reference and would not be "adding known inaccuracies" since the person is noting it's based on Oricon's criteria. - Hedatari (talk) 15:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you even know what the article says Hedatari? That chart has nothing to do with what you are saying!! What you are suggesting is utter vandalism with deception that it is verifiable. 220.253.27.11 (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be better if you explain what the article is about, rather than insisting only those who can read Japanese go read it. By doing the former, you would be attacking the source (rather than going off on a tangent trying to prove your point), and can clarify the reasons why you feel the article is misintepreted, thus gaining support from non-Japanese literate editors. I believe the source in question is this Oricon article, entitled "Mr. Children breaks the 50 million mark of total album and single sales!" The summarized article would be "Mr. Children's 15th anniversary of their debut is marked by their total sales breaking the 50 million mark, which is unheard of for 8 years and 8 months since 1998/7/13 when B'z made their mark in history achieving this as a duo. With Mr. Children's current album at number 1, they are tied again as the boy band (with 3 or more members) with the most #1 albums. Chart#1 &mdash; Total sales (singles + albums) by artists. Chart#2 &mdash; Mr. Children's Top 5 works by sales." Please feel free to correct any mistakes. Jappalang (talk) 00:07, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Because the editors that are insisting that it is verifiable and correct, should be able to read the article. 220.253.27.11 (talk) 03:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above statement by Jappalang. The IP user has done nothing but threaten people and called me and other people vandals without voicing their concerns in a calm and appropriate manner, even though I have tried my hardest to be nice and understanding (and even apologized when the user thought I was being impolite). Because frankly I'm getting tired of them talking to me in an accusing tone like I'm the one who's purposely decieving everyone and everything that's written in all of these articles they're angry at and constantly implying I'm some stupid person when they never even clarified their take on the article. However pretty much the IP user, has (finally) stated on my talk page that they see the article and table as a basis for only artists coming close to entering the 50 million artist arena thus the reason why Oricon created a table, so that they could show whose entered that 50 million field in the past 8-9 years, which after more carefully and slowly reading the article, I understand and could actually agree with. Though like I said in my talk page, I do not trust what a label reports on what one of their artists has "sold". A lot like to include shipped items. - Hedatari (talk) 01:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The question is, why number the entries in the table? That is what is creating the confusion. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well they were trying to show artists who were closest, and/or passed,that 50 million arena with the number however: According to their online "information" page they (Oricon Inc.) were established on October 1, 1999 which is making a so much more sense as to why they rank things like they do. I think that table also represent the highest selling artists since Oricon established itself. That's why they always make B'z #1 in various charts. They only look at artists since their establishment. But another good question is why did Music Station also label B'z as the #1 best selling artist in their April 1, 2005 show, and Mr.Children and so forth as the second, third, etc...? While I like to think that 50 million is true, after thinking about that Music Station episode I have to speculate once again on this matter. Something's not right. - Hedatari (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not for nothing B'z were inducted into Hollywood Rock Walk recently. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hedatari, Oricon has been around for about 40 years (maybe that page is saying they launched a website in 1999). Every week there is a "best selling" artist by different companies for many different reasons. It does not mean much, and certainly does not mean they have the highest record sales. 220.253.27.11 (talk) 04:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea the online version is what I meant. I haven't counted the exact time length, but it seems that that date and the 8 years whatever months reported when Oricon wrote that article seems to match up. - Hedatari (talk) 01:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The article never made such claims ReyBrujo, and the article and table explains itself. 220.253.27.11 (talk) 03:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Until yesterday you never cared explaining what the table was about, only that it was being misused. Had you done that before, we would have saved the discussion for something else. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Just an outsider's point of view. I think both sides have been arguing on different frequencies. Both sides' information are correct, except the semantics used in the original article were perhaps incorrect. To point, Ayumi Hamasaki is "classified" as a "solo artist" which is written in katakana. If I am correct, this term is used for performers who sing and dance (generally R&B influenced), as well as holding concerts and outdoor performances. It would be correct for Oricon to label her as the first female solo artist to break 20 million total singles sales during Blue Bird's release. 220.253.44.239 is not wrong in pointing out that in the musical industry, there are female singers who have had such achievements, so the phrase "the first solo and female singer" is inaccurate. "Artists" are likely not the same as "singers"; singers likely only sing in studios and release records with little or no public performances, and the article should reflect that if that is true. Jappalang (talk) 12:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Copy edit?
Does this article really need copy editing? I went and cleaned a few things up, at least half of the article makes sense to me now. I removed the tag. I'm still a bit confused, however, as to what should be italicized and what shouldn't. I italicized all the song and album titles in the lead, but what about the rest? ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 19:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Cultural Impact
The "Cultural Impact" section is based on opinion, isn't it? Because it's difficult to say whether or not Hamasaki really is a fashion leader in Japan...I mean, it's not a hard fact. Also, calling her music videos "innovative" is rather opinionated too, no? Thanatous (talk) 01:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The fashion leader part was clear to me, I think whoever added that part is trying to say that she inspired lots of high school girls over there and she creates the trends that they follow. She is featured in a ton of magazines (I believe she does, or did, have a special section right in the first few pages of Vivi packed with recent photos and a journal entry) and won awards for her fashion sense. But I think the fact that it says her music videos are "innovative" does violate NPOV, so I removed that part. Though I still don't think we should keep "she is known for her expensive music videos", I mean most celebrities do make and use pretty costly stuff. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 03:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but her videos are really expensive. In fact, some of the most expensive in the world, and the most expensive from Japan. See the list. Aran|heru|nar 14:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The wording was a bit awkward. I'm thinking we should change it, but at the same time I'm not sure how anybody would rewrite that. I feel the same way about some parts of the article, and articles on other Japanese celebrities as well. Saying that they're expensive is just tacky to me, and then the next paragraph points out that she's of high distinction because she made the list for the most expensive music videos. I don't know, maybe when this article is unprotected we should clean some things up a bit. It's excessively wordy in some parts. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 19:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologize for all the multiple responses, but I would like to add that cleanup would probably bring this (and other articles on Asian celebrities) up to good article or even featured article status. They're still confusing the way they are right now. ― LADY GALAXY ★彡 Refill/lol 19:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Page protetced
There seems t be an edit war on this article, so I have protected the page for two weeks, so that only administrators can edit it. In keeping with policy and tradition, and because I am a rouge admin, I have protected the wrong version.

While the page is protected, please discuss the article and try to each a consenus. If anyone believes that there is a consensus for a particular change, you may use the editprotected tag beside a description of the change you want made: that will summon an admin to review it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Deafness
Just thought I would note, from Ayumi's posting herself, in "Team Ayu" #204, she announced that her left ear had done permanently deaf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.97.122.197 (talk) 06:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? Why don't you give us a link to that post? Until then, I'm removing this unreferenced bit. ― 金魚花火 04:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't read it in a reliable site yet, but it is in all fan sites by now. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 13:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's originally from teamAyu, and it has been confirmed by multiple members of the fansite. You aren't going to be able to see the original post unless you both live in japan and pay for the monthly membership.  Also, it has been a well known fact for many years that Hamasaki has had hearing trouble in her left ear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.55.19 (talk • contribs)
 * Hey there, don't correct misspelling from others, it is not polite even when you are well intentioned ;-) As for the news, indeed, we won't be able to get the original post, but we can wait until the media reports the news. If it is confirmed by Hamasaki herself, it should be a matter of time until an important news organization (from Japan or somewhere else) picks the information up. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is her post, directly from Ayumi herself http://pdkm01.mofile.com/p/1/2008/1/4/Z3/Z3C21W6Z7S_105.png (actual page only accessable by TeamAyu members) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.97.122.197 (talk) 23:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

References for the person "untitled ~for her~" is supposedly written in memory of
As there are no official statements from Ayumi yet concerning who the supposed subject of "untitled ~for her~" is (at least, there isn't any reference given), isn't the part about it in the "Personal Life" section hearsay? Thanatous (talk) 02:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it says that it was revealed on a TV show and on the booklet. I don't think she's exactly going to make an official announcement on her website saying, "My friend died and untitled ~for her~ is dedicated to her!" It's going to be hard to find sources for that, I looked around but nothing turned up. ― LADY GALAXY 19:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Ayu's Symbols
I seem to remember that there was a section on Ayu's symbols (her A, H, M, etc.) Whatever happened to that?

Thanatous (talk) 23:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I remember that as well. A lot of things in the article were removed.  Lady   Galaxy  00:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why was it removed? If possible, I'd like to bring it back. I think it deserves a place in the article. Thanatous (talk) 03:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember the section, I think it was deleted because it did not add anything to the article. It was just a paragraph saying that she switched an "A" for "H". There were no sourced reasoning for the change, no discussion about the logos themselves (who designed them, why, consequences, etc). For example, Prince (musician) discusses some details about the name change of Prince. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 06:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Combined fashion and PV section
I combined the fashion and PV section into one section, "Image and cultural impact." Other good/featured articles (like that of Celine Dion) group the "image" section like that, so I just thought I would follow suite. I'm open to suggestions, though, if y'all don't deem that method fitting. Thanatous (talk) 06:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

References Needed for...
While I have found more and more references that were previously lacking, there are still some things that need referencing, like the statement in the "Duty and I am..." section that says that Ayumi Hamasaki Concert Tour 2000 A topped the charts or that Super Eurobeat presents Ayu-ro mix 2 is the second number-one remix album in Japanese history or the sales of My Story, etc. The section most in need of references is the "Personal life" section, specifically the part about the person who died. There are no references at all for that section.

Thanks! Thanatous (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

About her PVs
I don't think she's the only non-American to have some of the most expensive PVs in the world. George Michael's "Freeek!" music video cost about $2 million USD, and he's English. Should the phrase "making Hamasaki the only non-American to hold such a distinction" be changed to "making Hamasaki the only Asian to hold such a distinction" or to "making Hamasaki one of two non-Americans to hold such a distinction"? --Happy Panda (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I wrote the section on her PVs using the MSN article as a reference. I couldn't find anything about George Michael in the article, nor are there any such claims on Wikipedia of his having one of the most expensive PVs in the world (I also could not find anything about the PV of "Freeek" on the Internet). So, until someone can find (reliable) references to prove otherwise, let's just go with the MSN article (which doesn't mention any other non-American on its list). Thanatous (talk) 22:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Wikipedia page for "List of most expensive videos made" includes George Michael's video. I also googled George Michael's music video and got results that read that the video cost £1,000,000. Here is the link to the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_music_videos I hope I don't sound too petty. :) --Happy Panda (talk) 02:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, no, you don't sound petty at all. But I am in a quandary here. The Sun has had quite a few controversies about it, including being a rather sensationalist newspaper, so I'm not sure if it's really that reliable a source, at least compared to MSN. Thanatous (talk) 18:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Secret as a mini-album
I haven't found any official sources (like Avex, Oricon, etc.) that say Secret was originally supposed to be a mini-album; however, there are a number of fan-made sites that make such a claim. Is it all right to use those sites as a reference, or should the part that says that Secret was originally planned to be a mini-album be removed? Thanatous (talk) 18:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Secret WAS supposed to be a mini album. Before it was turned into a full length album, there was a flash intro on her website that said something along the lines of "Secret", first mini album since "Memorial address" or something or other.

If you want ... i guess I will try to find something about it for you. (96.234.55.19 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

English lyrics
What do you all think about adding a paragraph or so about Ayu's writing English lyrics starting from Rainbow? (It would probably be added to the "Lyrics" section.) Important part of her artistry or kind of trivial? Thanatous (talk) 19:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you find references about why she did so or whether the lyrics changed something on her style, it means it is important and can be added. Otherwise, it is not really that important. You can mention she started using English lyrics in some albums, but I am not sure if that is information that should be here (instead of the album articles with those songs). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)