Talk:Ayumi Hamasaki/Archive 4

Copyediting request
Hello! I come here via a copyediting request that weas left on my talk page by User:Ink Runner. I'll be happy to copyedit this article. I will admit from the beginning that I have zero knowledge about Japanese singers or pop culutre, so I may be back to this talk page with questions if the prose is unclear. I'll start by doing a first pass through the article on paper, and will upload my changes section-by-section over the next couple days. Livitup (talk) 13:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's alright, would you please fix the capitalisations of Ayumi Hamasaki's remix albums and remix album tracklists? (Here is the list of remix albums Ayumi_Hamasaki_discography). I've already fixed a few. It's just that things like "RMX Works from Super Eurobeat presents Ayu-ro mix 3" should be "Rmx Works from Super Eurobeat Presents Ayu-ro Mix 3". It's because - not only are such album titles and track titles in incorrect English capitalisation - but also because they are a a direct violation of WP:NC policies. Thank you. Lily1104 (talk) 07:28, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Wedding
This, "Nippon TV News Zero aired a brief segment on February 14, 2011, at 22:40[JST] about Josh Sehrer's March 11 "Japanese Girls Worship Me" documentary and it's ties with Hamasaki's divorce." makes perfect sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.178.95 (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Tildes to go
A number of the articles about Hamasaki should be retitled without tildes (or swung dashes), according to MoS-JA. That will take time. In the meantime, most if not all of the tildes in this article should go. I've made a start on this. Morenoodles (talk)
 * Okay, I've removed the rest of the incorrect tildes in the body of the article. I'll get to work on the article names now. Ink Runner (talk) 20:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done! Morenoodles (talk) 09:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Updating outdated parameters in citeweb templates
Yeah, the accessmonthday parameter is outdated, so now the citations that use the citeweb templates only show the access year. Does somebody know of a way to fix that automatically? (No way am I going to update all 100 or so instances.) I think there was a bot, MelonBot or something, that did such tasks, but I have no idea whatsoever on how to use bots. Heeelllp~ Ink Runner (talk) 03:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:Bot requests looks like the right place to ask. TJRC (talk) 16:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks a lot. I can't believe I've been here for over a year and I still don't know how to work this thing. :P Ink Runner (talk) 18:44, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Pop or J-Pop?
I've been curious about this for awhile: I noticed that in the infobox, the section where it lists the various styles of music Hamasaki cranks out, only hints at "Pop". I do remember it was "J-Pop" at one point in this article's career. Ink Runner removed that. He explained in the edit summary provided, "Well, I think it's a bit racist to say it's Japanese pop." Right, but that's what she is known for. The way I see it, the current state of the genres of music is a bit too broad. We do this for other Japanese stars: Namie Amuro and Koda Kumi all have it, along with the other ones. Even the Chinese singers, like Jay Chou and Jolin Tsai, claim, "Mandopop" (and don't think I'm racist here; I'm a full Chinese female). So should we bring it back? ★  Dasani  ★ 07:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Er, well I didn't say it was racist or anything (or did I? I have the short-term memory of...something that has lousy short-term memory), just that J-pop isn't really a genre per se, it's a classification of music by a geographic location. I mean, genre is like the classification of music by it's sounds (like ethereal is like lots of flutes and synthesizers or whatever and house is a certain kind of beat), but J-pop can include ethereal and house and rock and whatnot. I mean, the template at the bottom of the J-pop page lists J-pop as by region instead of by style. Correct me if I'm wrong (translation: look up what genre actually entails because I'm too lazy XP) but...yeah. Haha. Ink Runner (talk) 08:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If it counts, she also has a bunch of remixes and the like that are "trance", "techno", "house"... whatever. There's hundreds of them. But yeah, I understand what you're saying... I just found it strange because all the other celebrities went by "regional classifications", so to say, and then she was all cleaned up.
 * By the way, sorry for the late response... my computer took a beating for almost a week (doesn't sound like a lot, but it's not easy to live without the internet for that long when you've reached a certain point of regular usage!). ★  Dasani  ★ 22:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Renaming of "Foray into Asia"
24.132.58.125 brings up a good point, Hamasaki has (to some extent) moved beyond just Asia (Guilty was released in Western countries, "Rule" is the international theme for DBE), but I'm at a loss as to what the section should be named then. I'm leaning toward "International forays", but that's already used over at Hikaru Utada (plus she hasn't released any physical albums outside Asia). "Extra-Japanese forays" sounds too awkward, and "Aiming for a market outside Japan" is too long. Any suggestions? Ink Runner (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Beyond Japan," or some variation thereof. No reason to keep that funky word "foray" if it's getting in the way TJRC (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the title should stay. Just because "Rule" is being used as the international theme for Dragonball Evolution doesn't mean anything. The director wanted a Japanese person to sing the theme song and he just happened to chose Ayumi. As for Guilty, I didn't hear anything about it being released in the west. Moon   and   Sunrise  00:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it was digitally (through iTunes and that stuff). But you're right, a movie tie-in probably doesn't warrant a rename. Ink Runner (talk) 00:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * But it's not particularly tied to Asia, either; so a discussion of Rule in "Foray into Asia" seems inapt. TJRC (talk) 01:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right too: her forays aren't exactly "international" yet, but they're not just limited to Asia...but I don't know how to phrase it. Ink Runner (talk) 02:06, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "[Eminence|Success|Market penetration] beyond Japan"? The more I see of "foray," the less I like it.  As a technical term, it connotes an attack of some sort.  As a non-technical term, it's a mild parody of one, like a "foray to the refrigerator for a snack."  My apologies, if the introduction of "foray" was part of the very fine work you've done on this article.  TJRC (talk) 02:15, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Foray" does sound kind of pretentious/doesn't have exactly the right connotation, so I was hesitant to use that term at first, but "Eminence"/"Success" might sound kind of POV since her extra-Japanese sales in Asia aren't easily measured, plus she was already enjoying popularity in Hong Kong and Singapore as early as 2001~2002. Of the Asian countries in which she enjoys the most popularity, only Taiwan has music charts [that I know of] that aren't published by a retailer or some commercial operation. And even then, they don't publish yearly charts and don't give the exact sales figures, so it's hard to gauge whether her extra-Japanese sales have been increasing that much. (Her last albums released during her "foray into Asia" period have topped the weekly charts, but then, so have her albums released before then.) I wanted to say "Moving beyond Japan", but that's kind of vague. So "market penetration" looks like the best choice, but I was wondering if there were a word in English that sums up the idea of "entering [the market]" like "foray" does. Ink Runner (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How about something like "Reaching Beyond Japan", or "Influence Beyond Japan"? 'Market penetration' really doesn't portray the right feeling for Ayumi's rise in popularity beyond Japan. keikeiaznqueen (talk) 23:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me. TJRC (talk) 23:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hamasaki Ayumi's Achievements & History: Revision
As a suggestion, can we have some collaborative assistance to revise Hamasaki's history to remove redundant information and provide a better, more organized account of Hamasaki Ayumi's achievements within Japanese music and culture? Many of the sections could use revision to provide for a more concise and direct detail of her influences, career, and success. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.36.40 (talk) 04:37, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is already an FA and has gone through four major revisions (check the template at the top of this talk page for further proof) in order to become what you currently have in front of you. This isn't the right place to judge, but I thought Jay Chou was way worse (he became an FA a few months before Hamasaki did). You can read the entire lengthy article, and it doesn't leave you with a strong impression of what Chou did as a singer. I'm not sure I approve of that one, either.


 * But in any case, feel free to edit this article and do a major hauling of new content. Just so long as it's properly sourced. ★  Dasani  ★ 20:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Even featured articles can start rotting. See Defending_article_quality. Eugeniu B  msg  22:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I try to keep the article abreast of the newest FAs (there aren't too many music biographies that became FA'ed in 2009, and as the standards seem to be getting higher all the time, I'm wary of using, let's say, Celine Dion, which was FA'ed in '06.) Usually, keeping a (recent) FA up to snuff means doing minor things like making sure the sources with links don't go dead, the new content is encyclopedic, etc., but occasionally, when I find new sources, I make a major addition. I do think the article could use a prose face-lift (my writing has improved—or so I like to think—since this article became an FA) and I think I'd use Big Star as a reference. The only problem is that this article relies so heavily on non-English sources, so translating/finding translations takes a lot of time, which I don't have as much of as before. Especially since I'd like to work on other articles, major changes to this article won't be too many. If anyone else wants to make major additions, I could help with ce and stuff. Now I'm rambling lol. Ink Runner (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why have references to her "A Visual Mix" PS2 game been removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.186.247.249 (talk) 06:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Real name
The Japanese Wikipedia says her real name is "濱崎 歩" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Famitsudc (talk • contribs) 05:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter if there's no source. Sorafune   +1  19:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

EP?
Wouldn't a "mini album," as the article puts it, be considered an Extended Play? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.175.201.17 (talk) 08:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Infobox?
This is probably not where I should ask, but is there a reason why Japanese celebrities have their names in both English and Japanese in the yellow strip of infobox, while Chinese and Korean celebrities only have English? See Jay Chou, Tang Wei, Zhang Ziyi; they all are only in English. 75.5.8.136 (talk) 18:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no reason. I suppose this only happened because editors editing primarily Chinese and Korean-related articles started using on the English name in the top of the infobox and just stuck with it. But there are other articles, like Chung Un-chan and Wen Jiabao, that have both English and Chinese/Korean on the top of the infobox. Sorafune   +1  18:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That's more serious, political stuff. I guess they thought that deserved to have both languages, as in those countries, you usually see the Chinese or Korean name more often than the Romanization; only when the politicians are mentioned in Western nations, English names have to be used (or Romanized forms of their Chinese names). I think that's how it is in Japan; you usually see only Japanese names used for celebrities, and China and Korea are no different, but I think they thought they could keep it Westernized for some reason I still don't know. Well, thanks for the answer. 75.5.8.136 (talk) 20:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I think it's just that editors editing Japanese-related entertainment individuals got used to putting both names down while editors editing Chinese and Korean-related entertainment individuals got used to putting only the English one down. But also I think it can be attributed to users, especially new ones, copying infoboxes from other artists of the same nationality and using it on new articles of other artists. I've been guilty of doing this all the time. Users copy infoboxes, then replace the parameters with info from the new artist. So like if they're copying from a Korean artist's page to a new page about another Korean artist, they'll see that it only has the English name on top and only put the English name of the new artist. But if they're copying from a Japanese artist's page to a new page about another Japanese artist, they'll see both the English and Japanese name and put both down. But for Chinese articles, I think one reason may be that editors aren't sure on what they should add, the Traditional Chinese name or the Simplified Chinese name, so they just include both lower in the article. Other than that, I really don't think there's any other reason, and there's no policy or guideline on Wikipedia that says whether or not both names should be displayed. Sorafune   +1  20:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Asian characters can simply go beside the birth name or the name but not both and certainly not in the Infobox name. It should always be 1 title it looks neater. EunSoo (talk) 17:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * For the infobox name tag, there's no right answer, so it being there or not is based on what users like more. And right now, for this article, I believe more users like to have the Asian name as well in the name tag. Sorafune   +1  18:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, editors should learn from other articles. If you read 100 Japanese artist articles, you'll develop a consensus of what other editors - as well as the users - prefer. The infobox format we use was actually established by the Japanese WikiProject, along with other Japanese culture enthusiests. This is what EunSoo doesn't realize. If he doesn't like the idea of having the kana and romaji together, he should bring it up with the WikiProject. I told him that he's trying to fight a battle he'll never win, but it doesn't click in his head. There are a lot of things I don't like within Wikipedia, but I choose to work with other editors as a team - which means utilizing the talk pages, joining and collaborating with the various WikiProjects, consult with administrators, etc. Groink (talk) 23:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Archives of references
For anyone interested, I made an analysis of all of the links used as references on this article at User:Mx3/AYU. There are still five links that don't have archives and need replacing, and for any links that rot over time, there's a WebCite archive available for each reference currently active. エムエックスさん 話  05:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

49th and 50th (51st and 52nd overall) singles, referencing
I added information for her 49th and 50th singles (50th and 51st overall), which are "Crossroad" (it's "crossroad" but we need to comply with WP:MJ) and "L", respectively, with the reference to Ayu's official page.

Keep up the good work - if we want to maintain the "featured article" status, bring up "good" content and add references too!!! Big  top  09:24, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, apparently the tracklist of the "Crossroad" single has officially came out, see: If anyone's ready, make sure to fix the Crossroad (song) article, as it is currently a redirect; it was first set up because it would be coming out, but it was made a bit too early as it failed WP:NSONGS; eventually it will be turned back into a regular article containing single information, including the "Blossom" music video, featuring not Ayu but TVXQ's "Hero" Kim Jaejoong. Apparently Ayu is quite a fan of TVXQ... みんな空の下 (トーク) 03:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

A Song for XX or A Song for ××?
Title pretty much says it all. The MoS-Ja might be against the latter, but those x-like things aren't x's; they're batsu (and they're silent when the title is read aloud.) But maybe someone who knows more about the matter than I do can weigh in... Ink Runner (talk) 04:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it, the latter might be better. I didn't know ×'s had a specific purpose in Japanese or that they had their own name. Also, one could make the argument that technically MOS:JA isn't against it because nowhere does it say that batsu should be changed to normal X's. But one reason why I just went with X's in the past was because when the album's title is printed in Japanese or when it's on a Japanese website, the ×'s actually look quite large (as you can see in this image), while on the English Wikipedia, the × becomes rather small, and the X looks more similar to the original intended title. But if the point was to simply have two batsu characters instead of plain X's, then it should probably still be A Song for ××. mx3  話  19:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Shopping
"Because Hamasaki did not attend school or have a job, she spent much of her time shopping at Shibuya boutiques and dancing at Velfarre, an Avex-owned disco club." How does one spend all of their time shopping and dancing at clubs without a job? In the same sentence it states she had no job, she shopped all the time. How? It is the same as saying she did not have food, so she ate all the time. Something is off here and it should be looked into or removed. I read the source and well, although it being time.com, I think it is pretty unreliable with this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnymushio (talk • contribs) 20:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Jobs aren't the only way people accumulate money, and, well, maybe she saved a lot when she did have a job. Ink Runner (talk) 05:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * She danced. She got paid. Personally, I'd call that a job, but obviously not in Japan. Maybe there's a stigma attached to dancing for money? 86.142.226.79 (talk) 16:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Elimination of Because to start sentences
Hi, I've eliminated "Because" as a starting word for sentences. Trust me, you would never see it in an English language encyclopedia or newspaper. Starting a sentence with "But" or "And" is unusual, but may be appropriate if used for emphasis, for example. But starting a sentence with "Because" is almost unheard of, because it's just a continuation of another sentence; there should always be a better way to phrase it. :-) Regards, merlin --Merlinme (talk) 08:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I completely agree. Nymf hideliho! 12:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * There is no rule against starting a sentence with "because," and it is perfectly correct to do so. "Because" generally introduces a subordinate clause, and as long as the sentence to which it is subordinate is present and complete, it is perfectly acceptable.  The perception that is not acceptable arises because it is often, in informal writing, used to present the subordinate clause all by itself.  This is usually in response to a previous "why"-type question, i.e., "Why did the dog bark?" "Because he saw a stranger."  In this case "Because he saw a stranger" is a sub. clause all by itself, and is a sentence fragment, to be avoided.


 * But it is no problem whatsoever to start a complete sentence (as distinguished from a sentence fragment) with "because." "Because the dog saw a stranger, he barked." is both acceptable and clear.  I think some of the rewordings here are both more awkward and less precise than the sentences they purport to improve.  I'll just use one example.


 * Before: Because of the widespread influence of her music and her constantly changing image, Hamasaki has often been compared to Madonna.


 * After: The widespread influence of her music and her constantly changing image has meant that Hamasaki has often been compared to Madonna.


 * The first sentence properly shows causation: the cause of the comparison of Hamasaki to Madonna is the widespread influence of Hamaski's music and constantly changing image. That's what "because" is all about.  The second sentence improperly sets up that the the influence and changing image has the same meaning as being compared to Madonna.  That's not correct.  Hamasaki's influence and image does not "mean" comparison to Madonna. It may have resulted in that, but it does not mean that.


 * I'd be interested in seeing some support for the assertion that it is improper to begin a complete sentence with "because." I can't find any support for it, either as a rule of grammar, usage or style, or as a Wikipedia practice. TJRC (talk) 19:54, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd still be very surprised if you could find a single example in a quality English newspaper or encyclopedia. Personally it makes me cringe. But grammar rules are always to some extent arbitrary, and this one is probably less of a rule than I thought. The best reference I could find was "Even in formal writing, a sentence can start with Because as long as it's recognized as a dependent clause". It's definitely not ok if the sentence is a fragment. For example, "Because it's raining." makes no sense on its own, but if a sentence clearly leads on from the previous sentence (it's dependent) and makes sense on its own (it's not a fragment) then it can be used.
 * If you think one of the "Because" sentences I changed expressed the meaning better when it started with "Because", or read more clearly, then by all means change it back. I'm not sure I understand what difference you're finding between "X meant that" and "Because of x" (I'm not sure there is a difference), but if you find the latter clearer, use the latter. One of the things I objected to was that there were quite so many sentences starting with "Because". I think there were about eight, sometimes three or four in the same paragraph, which is bad style for repetition if nothing else.
 * I occasionally start sentences with "But" in formal writing, and very occasionally "And", but I always think long and hard about each example, as they can come across as colloquial. I think you should very carefully make sure that there's no better way of phrasing it before using "Because" in an encylopedia. --Merlinme (talk) 08:41, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Having had a discussion about this on my talk page, it now looks as if this is something of a US/ UK difference, and even in UK style guides I haven't found a definitive rule. In practice I just don't see it in UK writing, however it happens fairly regularly in US writing, so I apologise if I was over-zealous. However even in US writing it seems to be quite an occasional thing though; I still think eight times in one article is far too many. --Merlinme (talk) 08:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a US/UK thing. I think it's a misunderstanding of the sentence fragment issue. TJRC (talk) 19:50, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

"popularity extends across Asia" sentence.
"Her constantly changing image and tight control over her artistry has meant that Hamasaki's popularity extends across Asia"


 * Why would a "constantly changing image" extend her popularity? What does "tight control over her artistry" mean? -- Jeandré, 2010-10-01t14:05z
 * "Tight control over her artistry"--she liked to be in control of things, at least in earlier days: writing the lyrics, composing, producing (de facto), developing her fashions, etc. (She's started leaving things up to other people, though, as of late-ish.) As to your first question, I don't remember, but that may have been just what the source said. It's not too hard to imagine why an ever-changing image would increase one's popularity, though--Lady Gaga might be an example of that. Ink Runner (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

London fans image
I'm restoring the image showing the singer in London with a group of fans. It was removed with the comment "gratuitous", but I don't agree. It's the only free image that actually shows her face. That makes it valuable. --GRuban (talk) 21:43, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

"20 Richest Female Singers of all Time Including Ayumi Hamasaki!". New York Daily. August, 2010. Retrieved August, 2010"
Can someone verify the reliability of the source http://www.hypnoticasia.com/blog/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7887:20-richest-female-singers-of-all-time-including-ayumi-hamasaki&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=56 ? An IP added it to the lead of the article with accompanying text, but I'm dubious that the 'New York Daily' would publish an article in Japanese text. I can't confirm it myself since I can't read Japanese. If it is legit, feel free to revert my revert. Syrthiss (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember looking up that article, and I couldn't find a really reliable source.... Ink Runner (talk) 05:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, someone put the richest-female-singer thing back up and referenced purepeople.com. I'm not sure what to do here, because I'm not sure how reliable purepeople.com is. (It's in French.) I just find it funny that I can't find any really reliable sources to verify. (Maybe the article was only in print, but...) Anybody wanna weigh in? Ink Runner (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That 'article' does indeed say that, but I can't find anything referencing it on NY Daily News own site and no hints of a google hit for a deleted article or anything. If someone can give me a direct cite even to the print edition, I'm good with including it.  Otherwise, it stays out. Syrthiss (talk) 12:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Hamasaki's Contributions to Relief Efforts in Japan
Worth including in Wiki or not really? (And if it is, what would it go under? Personal life?)


 * http://search.japantimes.co.jp/mail/fm20110318a1.html
 * http://mdpr.jp/021134713
 * http://www.sanspo.com/geino/news/110319/gnj1103190505018-n1.htm
 * http://mdpr.jp/021134827

Ink Runner (talk) 02:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes i think it's worth including, the issues Japan is going through at the moment are worldwide news and the fact that she donated such a significant amount of money deserves mention in my opinion, probably in the "Personal life" section. --Duphin (talk) 04:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)