Talk:Ayyavazhi/Archive 2

Clarification
"the exact number of practioners are difficult to estimate, since Indian census does not collect sub-sects of religions and so its followers are counted along with Hindus.[27][28]" - Now, I am not sure what exactly those citations are saying but this sentence in itself has many things wrong with it. It tries to claim two things: A) Indian census does not collect information pertaining to sects of a religion. B) This is why followers of Ayyavazhi are not counted. C) This is why they are counted along with Hindus. This makes no sense. If Ayyavazhi was considered a different religion then it would not follow under "sub-sect" category and its followers would be counted.  This sentence has no support and its one more of many flawed circular sentences in this article.  I am getting rid of it.  --Blacksun 09:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The reply for this question is right on the second sentence that "majority of the folllowers declare them as hindus in Census". This is the reason that Ayyavazhi is also considered as a Hindu sect. This sentence have nothing to do with the 'number of followers' matter. And for the number of followers, the reason is, ' Indian census doesn't collect datas over sub-sects. And as per the previous (second) sentence and as per the citations, they are difinitely counted as Hindus. ==>  Д = | Ω  | =  Д   PaulỸ 00:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You cannot have it both ways: Either they are sub-sect of Hinduism or they are a different religion. You cannot use the fact that Indian census does not collect data on sub-sects to imply that is why they are counted as Hindus.  I am not sure why you are not seeing the very obvious hole in that logic.  --Blacksun 12:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't agree; If two such thing exists then both should definitely be noted. Then, this is not finding every loop hole, that is the very nature of it in this matter. So if not, despite of these evidences, are you tellng that no such thing (either as a sub-sect or a religion in WP POV) ever exists? ==>  Д = | Ω  | =  Д   PaulỸ 14:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow
Lots of References...Kmarinas86 07:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC) In which religion does Ayyavazhi belongs?

Yes, some need to be removed if possible. Cuts off sentence flow too much. 70.128.84.135 11:29, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

A brief assessment
On the Hinduism project page I saw a request to review the assessment of this article so I thought I would offer my opinion.


 * 1) I find the sheer amount of references to be distracting. It seems that almost every sentence, and sometimes even sentence fragments have mutliple references.  I believe that this is overkill.  I think someone familiar with the topic should review the article and rewrite it so that references are used more sparingly.  In my opinion, references should be used for the ideas developed in the article, not for every sentence.
 * 2) I also find the sheer number of Wikilinks in the article to be distracting. A starting point might be to find all instances of words that are linked multiple times in the article.  The manual of style seems to Wikilink a word only the first time it is used and not thereafter.  There are some exceptions for really long articles, but I don't think this one fits.
 * 3) There are a lot of external links, some seem to be multiple links to the same website. Please consider reducing the number of links to only those reliable sites that expand upon the material in the article.

The article would also benefit from a more formal peer review process. Please see WP:PR for instructions on how to start a formal peer review. Once reviewed, an interested editor can create a To-Do list and once concerns are addressed, perhaps upgrade the status.

In it's current form and without a formal peer review, I don't see this article receiving any more than a B rating. Just my opinion.

TheRingess (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I had done some works removing too much of wikilinks from all sections. And regarding citations I havn't done anything, but IMHO citing too much is not worse than citing too lesser. Also it seems that this article is once questioned heavily for lack of reference. I personally also feel that this article since it's online citations are comparitively very low to those offline, it may benifit the article if cited largely n numbers. - white dot...!!! 23:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that having 2 or 3 citations for just about every sentence (and having them in the middle of a sentence) makes the article unreadable. Having too many citations is just as bad as too few.  Find a balance.  For example, the first paragraph consists of 3 - 4 sentences, 9 references and looks like there's a reference about every 5 words.  Do you really feel that 9 references for 3 sentences is absolutely necessary?TheRingess (talk) 00:18, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I too feel uneasy that the article carry heavy reference. But it seems that there had been once a strong debate over the lack of citation of the article which leads to so much refernce. Pls see the discussion over here. And why dis you remove the template for the Ayyavazhi series down in the article. Only a few links there in the template are already found in the article and all else were fresh and new links. You also removed the sister-links, see also and Portal templates. I feel that these links deserves a place over there. Thanks - white dot...!!! 13:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What is done here?
Friends, I already told that these much of citations are essential for the article since the authenticity of the article and its contents are highly quenstioned once. Right now, see in the above discussion Talk:Ayyavazhi/Comments, what an user opinioned. He is doubtful that the entire article and it's series is an elobrate hoax. This is what I told more or less; single or multiple; all references especially those from the Tamil News papers should be there in the article. Please understand. - Paul Raj 11:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

In the History section
I feel that the following points should be how ever in the History section of Ayyavazhi since these were (i feel) important historical facts


 * The realeased version of Akilam in 1939.
 * The inaguration of the Nagercoil, Thiruvanantha Puram and Tiruchendur processions.
 * The other versions release (especially the Thirukkudumbam version).
 * Ayyavazhi conferences

I may have missed some points too. So Paul pls take a overview in the section and add if anything had been ommited. Thanks - White Dot...!!!&reg; 20:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion
Almost a century after Akilam was written down, it was released in printed form for the first time in 1933. The first printed form of Arul Nool came on 1927. While some others view that it released first on 1918. And then onwards Ayyavazhi is spread on the base of the teachings of Akilam rather than by hear-say, which was active until then. As per the reports from the headquarters, from the period of Indian Independence Ayyavazhi spreads fastly and further more from 90s of the 20th century. The first Tiruchendur as well as Thiruvananthapuram Processon symbolising the birth and release of Vaikundar respectively was held on March 3, 1975 and was continued every year. Many Ayyavazhi based social welfare movements raised in the late 20th century. And after fifty-six years the release of Palaramachandran Version, The controversial Vaikundar Thirukkudumbam version of Akilam was realead in 1989.

Also Ayyavazhi and its leaders played an important role in resolving the religious tentions during the Mondaicaud dispute. In 1993 a democratic body, Anbukkodimakkal Thirucchabai was formed by the head-quarters to organise Ayyavazhi and its followers. And part of it, many Ayyavazhi conferences are held towards the end of the 20th century in various cities including Chennai and Thiruvnanthapuram. - White Dot...!!!&reg; 21:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I had added a paragraph. Pls take a look. And regarding citations, pls don't remove anything. We removed a few, see they started saying that 'no reference', 'elobrate hoax' and all. - Paul Raj 22:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Reference
"Samuel Mateer, The Land of Charity, page 222 - 223, 'this singular people display considerable zeal in the defence and propagation'"

How does this source back the idea that Ayyavazhi has been considered an independant religion? S facets 14:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Samuel Mateer in his book The Land of Charity describes the social as well as religious history of Travancore and midst, identifies Ayyavazhi autonomous or a seperate mass which is not mingled to any other social or religious mass existed then. Find the term "Singular people" in that sentence which says Ayyavazhi as an independent religion. Others are given for the continuation. - PaulRaj 17:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Could we get the full quotation? "Singular people" could mean any number of things. S facets 17:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, presently that book is not with me. I refer to it from some other books. In fact that book is no more to be published I think. Anyway, I shall try in some way to get it from some where. - PaulRaj 17:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

In the template
I request Paul and other users who has more knowledge in Akilam than me to add more informations to the articles that are mentioned in the template Ayyavazhi. It carries some stubs also, Thanks. - White Dot...!!!&reg; 08:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments

 * TOOO LONG 90+ KB
 * Place a date for the historical Mudisoodum Perumal. (Ayya Vaikundar)
 * "The internal evidence states that the Akilattirattu Ammanai was written down by Hari Gopalan Seedar in 1951 [48] by hearing the contents of Akilam told by Narayana to his consort Lakshmi." has a different than the ref "It is presented as if Vishnu is narrating the whole story to his consort Leksmi"
 * In "Scriptures and holy places" UNDUE to disputed Pathis, while recognized Pathis not mentioned.
 * Both of the Ayyavazhi scriptures[64] [65] refers to Thirunamam, but not the Lotus. - What is Thirunamam??
 * Ref 97 speaks of Vaikunta Swami (1809-1851). Is he same as Ayya Vaikundar??? Neither the article nor the ref says so. However ref 101 is indicative of it.
 * Ref 98 is a dead link, thus invalid as ref. Thus need refs for "Sociologically speaking, Ayya Vaikundar was the first[97][98] to succeed as a social reformer[99][100] in launching political struggle,[101] social renaissance[102][103] as well as religious reformation[104] in the country"
 * Ref 101 says "The life of Vaikuntasami, the man who preached philosophy, religion and social justice 175 years ago and who is worshipped in many areas of the South, particularly Nagercoil, is being made into a film — Ayya Vazhi." Noting about a political struggle.
 * I am confused. A section is devoted to Santror, but not to Ayya Vaikundar. Who is more imp???
 * In 'Relation with Hinduism', suddenly a full story of emergence of Vaikundar is told. I dont understand why. Shouldn't the section discuss 'Relation with Hinduism', instead of telling telling the tale?
 * 'Tri-Kumbas' are pictured, but not mentioned in text. What is the context of the pic???
 * At many places, there is UNDUE bolding in img captions. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Place a date for the historical Mudisoodum Perumal. (Ayya Vaikundar)
 * DONE.
 * Add Mudisoodum Perumal and Vaikunta Swami names.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "The internal evidence states that the Akilattirattu Ammanai was written down by Hari Gopalan Seedar in 1951 [48] by hearing the contents of Akilam told by Narayana to his consort Lakshmi." has a different than the ref "It is presented as if Vishnu is narrating the whole story to his consort Leksmi"
 * It means, The contents of Akilam is told by Narayana to Lakhsmi in the upper world and it was presented (written down) by Hari gopalan Ceedar in 1841.C.E. It was told so in Akilam.
 * The article sentence now has the sense "It happened that way". The ref - "It is written as though it happened that way". Hari Gopalan Seedar heard Vishnu speak is an overstatement (NPOV issues). Something like "It is believed by Ayyavazhi......" is better IMO.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems that the very suggestion by you is right over there in the article; It was mentioned that "Internal evidence states that...", which means, something told in the book about itself and hence the statement itself says that it is the POV of the scripture towards itself. - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * In "Scriptures and holy places" UNDUE to disputed Pathis, while recognized Pathis not mentioned.
 * ''Done.
 * Still undue to disputed Pathis exists. The whole para can be summed as "Other Pathis with disputed claims are...."
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Name the Pathis.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Both of the Ayyavazhi scriptures[64] [65] refers to Thirunamam, but not the Lotus. - What is Thirunamam??
 * Thirunamam is the 'flame shaped symbol' present in the top of the Lotus in the Ayyavazhi symbol.
 * Include this short summary in brackets.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ref 97 speaks of Vaikunta Swami (1809-1851). Is he same as Ayya Vaikundar??? Neither the article nor the ref says so. However ref 101 is indicative of it.
 * Yes, Vaikundar is Vaikunta Swami. (The term 'Swami' refers to God in Tamil)


 * Ref 98 is a dead link, thus invalid as ref. Thus need refs for "Sociologically speaking, Ayya Vaikundar was the first[97][98] to succeed as a social reformer[99][100] in launching political struggle,[101] social renaissance[102][103] as well as religious reformation[104] in the country"
 * The dead link had been removed and the removal don't affects the content of the sentence since the other provided citations confirms the statement.


 * Ref 101 says "The life of Vaikuntasami, the man who preached philosophy, religion and social justice 175 years ago and who is worshipped in many areas of the South, particularly Nagercoil, is being made into a film — Ayya Vazhi." Noting about a political struggle.
 * As per the citation, i feel it not says Vaikundar, a person who launced political struggle, but as a preacher in the fields of philosophy, religion and social justice. And it created a reformations in the then society and was cited by the following citation [102], as the citaton calls the movement of Ayya as a reformation movement. Also this very sentence carries seven other citations which also states almost the same thing.


 * I am confused. A section is devoted to Santror, but not to Ayya Vaikundar. Who is more imp???
 * Vaikundar is more important than Santror, definitely, but in all sections, Vaikundar and the centrality of Ayyavazhi on him is focused in one way or another, especially in the capter theology. So there is no seperate section for Vaikundar is provided.
 * Are Santror so imp that they desire a para in the article? --Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, because the Santror are the Protagonists as per Akilam towards the ultimate focus point or goal, Dharma Yukam. But since both seem inter-related I've merged the topics Santror and Dharma Yukam. Take a look and suggest if any. - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * In 'Relation with Hinduism', suddenly a full story of emergence of Vaikundar is told. I dont understand why. Shouldn't the section discuss 'Relation with Hinduism', instead of telling telling the tale?
 * This section is specially dedicated to the mythical and ideological relation of Ayyavazhi to Hinduism. That is Ayyavazhi scriptures vs Hindu scriptures. By means of scriptural narration how Ayyavazhi is related to Hinduism is portraited in that section. And for the social structure of Ayyavazhi and social relation to Hinduism is presented in the next chapter.
 * I disagree. The section IMO is not well-written and the story telling is not encyclopedic.

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding this topic, can you please rewite it in encyclopediaic terms; Afterwards i may assist you and tell my suggestions. - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I read Ayyavazhi and Hinduism (the article has many tags like ref), there is no much written there, which is not summarized in the article. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 *  'Tri-Kumbas' are pictured, but not mentioned in text. What is the context of the pic???
 * The tri Kumbha represents the Hindu trinity their presence with in Vaikundar. In the over all storyline of Ayyavazhi, the central point from and about the incarnation of Vaikundar is the presence of Siva, Brahma and Vishnu (Hindu trinity) within him. So that image is placed there.
 * Add explanation in img cap.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * * At many places, there is UNDUE bolding in img captions.
 * I can't understand this statement. Pls tell in other words.
 * Remove bolding of Words in img captions--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  19:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your opinion and suggestion and please suggest (if any) more to improve the quality of the article. Thanks very much. - PAUL   RAJ  20:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Remove repeat links for e.g. the Pathis is provided n no. of times. By MOS, there should 1 link to an article (eg Pathi) per section.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed one of the repeatation, still have to do and will be done soon. - PAUL   RAJ  17:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Check other instances of repeat links. e.g. Vaikundar, dhramic in lead. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Ten Incarnation door.jpg is so low resolution that you can't see the ten avatars. What is the point in keeping it/???--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no other images for that section. Let me found some other suitable image. - PAUL   RAJ  17:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is there bold text in refs????--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't we use bold text in reference section? - PAUL   RAJ  17:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have never seen bold in ref. Words are bolded for importance. By bolding, the refs are given WP:UNDUE imp.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are same as Vethan, Thirumal, Sivan of the template. Then why are these names used in the template. Use standard names to avoid confusion.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is because Akilam is Tamil based and the Tamil usage of those terms are mostly found in Akilam. So that Tamil names are predominantly used in the Template. - PAUL   RAJ  17:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * IMO, Merge "Santror and dharma yukam" in summarized form and "Mythology". The story in "Relation with Hinduism", is also better suited for "Mythology". If then there is left nothing to write in "Relation with Hinduism", just delete it.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I personally disagree with the merge of 'Ayyavazhi mythology' with 'Ayyavazhi and Hinduism'. Because, the section 'Ayyavazhi Mythology deals with the overall conclusion of the whole mythology and a very few comparision, most probably the vast differences between. But Ayyavazhi and Hinduism deals with the mythical power relations of God heads that changes with respect to time, which coincides with the othersect views inside Hinduism. That is, this topic doesn't carry anything other than the events related to the power changes and relations btw God-heads. Also in this section, the coincidences are, and diffences are not focused. So we need seperate sections for both. But if needed we can summarise the section. Also if can, please summarise the section Santror and Dharma Yukam, Thanks. - PAUL   RAJ  17:13, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Unneccessary links are many starting from the lead eg reformation, revolution, feudual, million etc. Also such links exist in ref e.g "The 'zhi' (ழி) portion of the word, 'Ayyavazhi', is a retroflex, and it is correctly transliterated according to the National Library at Calcutta romanization as ayyava l i". Links should be given at first instance, the Hinduism link should be given in 1st para of lead, not 3rd. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There are many non-English ref, which are not desired in an English encyclopedia as per WP:RSUE. Can English refs be found?--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * For some web ref, cite web template is not used.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

GAR
The word preachings should be replaced with either preaching or preaching's.
 * Ayyavazhi is centered on Ayya Vaikundar's life and preachings, and its ideas and philosophy are based on the holy texts Akilattirattu Ammanai and Arul Nool.'
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Minor spellings as follows (correct those which can be. If they are Indian-English dialect leave a note following the word) .  identifyied.  --> identified / travelled. -->traveled / a eleventh --> an eleventh /15000 verse --> 15000 verses /seventeen section --> seventeen sections / Where Vaikundar unifyied six -->Where Vaikundar unified six / Where Ayya unifyied --> Where Ayya unified /  inturn -->  in turn / incarnational year -->incarnation year / meditational focus-->meditation focus / ubiquite --> ubiquity / So all the qualities of Ekam are within each souls --> So all the qualities of Ekam are within each soul / primari -->primary / Flagmast --> flag mast (in image description) / since an universal change  --> since a universal change / specially--> especially /  thinkings--> thinking / vedas--> Vedas / describtion -->description / worshippable-->worshipable (used three times)/judgement-->judgment (shows up twice) / previled-->prevailed / unsensible -->insensible /practises.-->practices / exlusively -->exclusively / hindu -> Hindu (in image description) /taken as as a Hindu offshoot--> taken as a Hindu offshoot / uniquness-->uniqueness / world's religious knowledges -->world's religious knowledge /censuses --> censeii / literal-style -->literally-style / Panchappathis'  -->Pancha pathis (for consistency in the article one spelling should be adopted).
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * fastly (not a word) should perhaps be a word like quickly
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word to Ayya's path - from the direct synonymous derivation, Ayya Vaikundar's direction or course of action. Re-word please (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)
 * Ayya's path - from the direct synonymous derivation, which takes Ayya as a noun (naming word) of Vaikundar
 * I can't understand this. pls tell in other words. - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-word to either (for subject verb agreement)...
 * It contains the prayers, hymns and instructions for the way of worship in Ayyavazhi, rituals, prophesies and also many acts
 * It contains the prayers, hymns and instructions for the way of worship in Ayyavazhi, rituals, prophesy and also many acts
 * It contains the prayers, hymns and an instructon for the way of worship in Ayyavazhi, rituals, prophesies and also many acts
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Change to one of the following choices for subject verb agreement please.(If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)
 * Also the incarnation year of Vaikundar is 1008 M.E. Backing these scriptural identities, 1008 petal lotus is followed in Ayyavazhi symbolism
 * Also the incarnation year of Vaikundar is 1008 M.E. Backing these scriptural identities, 1008 petal lotus are followed in Ayyavazhi symbolism
 * Also the incarnation year of Vaikundar is 1008 M.E. Backing this scriptural identity, 1008 petal lotus is followed in Ayyavazhi symbolism
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

re-word to (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)... The 'Natham' (voice), Trimurthi, other lesser gods and the entire universe further evolved.
 * The 'Natham' (voice), Trimurthi, other lesser gods and all the universe further evolved. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re word please to (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)...
 * Also Ayyavazhi scriptures succeeded very much in making understand this commonly insensible things (Philosophical ideas) to the common mass.
 * Also Ayyavazhi scriptures succeeded very much in making understand these commonly insensible things (Philosophical ideas) to the common mass.
 * Also Ayyavazhi scriptures succeeded very much in making understand this commonly insensible thing (Philosophical ideas) to the common mass.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Change to the following for number agreement please. There is also a view that these seven boys are the ancestors of the whole human race, and hence the term 'Santror' refers to the whole Human race
 * (minor) exclusivism could be wikilinked.
 * There is also a view that this seven boys are the ancestors of the whole human race, and hence the term 'Santror' refers to the whole Human race
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please change dharmas to dharma (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)
 * So a total universal transformation of the power relation of god-heads, the rules of scriptures, the dharmas, etc. took place and Vaikundar was given birth by 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please change to since Vaikundar was given birth to perform the duties of Vishnu, which he could not do
 * since Vaikundar was given birth to perform the duties of Vishnu, which he coudn't do
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please change...(census is from Latin, and the plural is censeii) It is conceived as an independent monistic[4] religion by newspapers[5] and academic research,[6][7]. In Indian censeii the majority of its followers declare themselves as Hindus.
 * It is conceived as an independent monistic[4] religion by several newspapers[5] and academic research,[6][7] although in Indian censuses the majority of its followers declare themselves as Hindus. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please change to (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)... Vaikundar's activities and the growing number of followers, created a reformation and revolution in 19th century Travancore[13] and Tamil society,[14] surprising the feudal social system of South India
 * Vaikundar's activities, as well as the growing number of followers, created a reformation and revolution in 19th century Travancore[13] and Tamil society,[14] surprising the feudal social system then in place in South India
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please change to something like... The Thuvayal thavasu, or washing penance, of 1840 is the origin of Ayyavazhi as an alternative religio-cultural phenomena.
 * The Thuvayal thavasu which was conducted in 1840 is considered as the period of origin of Ayyavazhi as an alternative religio-cultural phenomena
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The majority of who?? Please re-phrase. The majority of those who took place in the Thuvayal thavasu were from the marginalised and poor sections of the society. or...  The majority of those who worshipped Vaikundar were from the marginalised and poor sections of the society.
 * The majority of them were from the marginalised and poor sections of the society.[28]
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re word to something like this, as it is hard to read (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)... For the Christian missionaries underataking their proselytising mission Ayyavazhi posed a great challenge. Adherents to Ayyavazhi resisted conversion to Christianity.
 * For the Christian missionaries Ayyavazhi posed a great challenge from its inception in their proselytising mission, resisting conversion
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

REword so that their reports is clear as to whose reports they are... Ayyavazhi's fast growth in its first century was noted by Christian missionary reports reports of the mid-19th century.
 * Ayyavazhi's fast growth in its first century was noted by their reports of the mid-19th century too.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re word to something like...as this agrees with the formatting of the previous sentence. Nizhal Thangals under guidance from Akilattirattu Ammanai arose across the country to also recognise Ayyavazhi.
 * On the other hand hundreds of Nizhal Thangals arose across the country.[39]
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a sentence fragment and not capitalised.
 * almost a century after it had written down
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it necessary to the context of the article? Since it's history have started and happened almost a century before its release (in printed form) it is, i feel, fit to the context. - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC) If so, which text was written down a century earlier, the Arul Nool or the Akilam. Both are are released almost a century after they are written down. - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Re word, this one is very lengthy and wordy...perhaps.. Headquarter reports state that Ayyavazhi spread quicker and further during the period of Indian Independence in the 1940s than in the 1990s
 * As per the reports from the headquarters, from the period of Indian Independence Ayyavazhi spreads fastly and further more from the 1990s
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-word- This reference is a book which I don't have access to...should it be... Many Ayyavazhi based social welfare organisations were established in the late 20th century.[43] Many Ayyavazhi based social welfare organisations were established following the late 20th century.[43]
 * Many Ayyavazhi based social welfare organisations were established from the late 20th century.[43]
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) ... Controversial versions of Akilam were released in the same period.
 * On the other hand several alternative versions of Akilam were released including some controversial versions by the same period
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Long sentence with two ideas or concepts...Reword to something similar (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)... The Anbukkodimakkal Thirucchabai, a democratic bureau was established by the headquarters in the early 1990s to organize and govern the religion. Conferences are held in various cities in South India including Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram. OR The Anbukkodimakkal Thirucchabai, a democratic bureau was established by the headquarters in the early 1990s to organize and govern the religion. Organisational conferences are held in various cities in South India including Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram.
 * The Anbukkodimakkal Thirucchabai, a democratic bureau was established by the headquarters in the early 1990s to organize and govern the religion, and on behalf of it many conferences are held in various cities in South India including Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-word Considering the growth of Ayyavazhi, Ayya Vaikunda Avataram, the day of incarnation of Vaikundar, was declared a holiday by the state administration for the district of Kanyakumari in 1994 followed by the districts of Tirunelveli and Tuticorin in 2006,[45]
 * And considering the growth of Ayyavazhi, the day of incarnation of Vaikundar, Ayya Vaikunda Avataram was declared as a holiday by the state administration for the districts of Tirunelveli and Tuticorin from the year 2006,[45] while for the district of Kanyakumari it was announced as so from 1994
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) Currently Bala Prajapathi Adikalar, a Payyan dynasty descendant, is considered as the leader of Ayyavazhi.
 * Currently Bala Prajapathi Adikalar, one of descendant of Payyan dynasty is considered as the leader of Ayyavazhi
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Reword ...(If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)... The Akilattirattu Ammanai was written by Hari Gopalan Seedar in 1841. Re word as sometimes version is stated in the sentence and sometimes not, it should be consistent for all.. Other release versions include the Sentrathisai Ventraperumal, Kalai Ilakkiya Peravai, Vivekanandan as well as the highly criticised Vaikundar Thirukkudumbam Version (VTV)
 * The internal evidence states that the Akilattirattu Ammanai was written down by Hari Gopalan Seedar in 1841
 * Other release versions includes, Sentrathisai Ventraperumal, the Kalai Ilakkiya Peravai, the Vivekanandan Version as well as the highly criticised VTV 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word The symbol is considered as the ideological summary of Akilam-based philosophy.
 *  But inturn the symbol is considered as the ideological summary of Akilam-based philosophy.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word please The first Neetiya Yukam, is Bindu and the final state, Dharma Yukam is Sahasrara or absolute bliss.
 * The first Neetiya Yukam as Bindu and the final state of absolute bliss, Sahasrara is said to be the Dharma Yukam.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word No comma needed after the. (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) In this series energy of consciousness(Namam) of oneself is raised from Bindu (Neetiya Yukam) to the final Sahasrara (lotus) to experience the absolute 'bliss'.
 * In this series the, energy of consciousness(Namam) of oneself is to raised from Bindu (Neetiya Yukam) to the final Sahasrara (lotus) to experience the absolute 'bliss'.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a new sentence, so should have a capital letter. Ayyavazhi's symbol seems to be derived from Akilam, and the symbol of Ayyavazhi,  'Lotus with Thirunamam'  shows "Vaikundar's experience in Sahasrara."
 * and so, the Ayyavazhi's symbol seems to be derived from Akilam. And the symbol of Ayyavazhi,  'Lotus with Thirunamam'  shows it — "Vaikundar is being experienced in Sahasrara."
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) The lotus may also represents the heart and the flame shape (Thirunamam), the divinity.
 * How ever there is also another opinion about the symbol that the lotus represents the heart and the flame shape (Thirunamam) the divinity
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word, possibly... Ayyavazhi has used other symbols including Vaishnavite ' Triple Namam '(not used currently), and Conch.
 * Besides this, some other symbols including Vaishnavite ' Triple Namam '(not used currently), Conch etc are also used in Ayyavazhi.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word. just the word to missed for ease of reading. Followers are encouraged to refer to God as Ayya, "dear father", and thus to strengthen their intimacy and affection towards God
 * Followers are encouraged to refer God as Ayya, "dear father", and thus to strengthen their intimacy and affection towards God
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.)
 *  The evil of Kali is the one which blocks that ultimate or supreme oneness prevailing between individual souls and the universe, giving an individuality and extreme pride for them and make them departing from the quality of the oneness and motivating against it

RE-word Should contest be context?
 * In this social contest, the intermingling of the castes brought about in Ayyavazhi centres was one of the vital elements in the transformation of society.

RE-word It also created many social changes in southern India impinging greatly on society highly resulting in social and Self-respect movements broke out such as Upper cloth agitation, Temple entry agitation, Narayana Guru and Chattampi Swamikal.
 * In addition it also created many social changes in the southern India impinging the society highly so that several social and Self-respect movements broke out such as Upper cloth agitation, Temple entry agitation and movements of Narayana Guru and that of Chattampi Swamikal, etc.
 * DONE (with minor modifications) - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word a fact is needed not just another As per (state here the name of the other statistic) there are more than 8000 worship centres in Tamil Nadu and Kerala alone.
 * As per another statistics there are more than 8000 worship centres in Tamil Nadu and Kerala alone
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word for clarity. Is this that there are reports from the LMS which speak a lot about the worship centers. or that the LMS reports a quantity of worship centers?
 * The LMS Reports of the mid-19th century also speaks in abundance about Nizhal Thangals
 * A lot of LMS Reports speaks about such worship centers (not lot of worship centers) - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Pathis were the important centres of congregational worship, being relatively bigger structures.''
 * ''The Pathis earns more importance among the worship centres.[110]

Is this not the same concept said two times in a row?
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word These centres are considered the abode of Dharma. The Nizhal Thangals formed an important institution in the socio-religious life of the people of Ayyavazhi. Panividai may be conducted up to three times daily, but all worship centres provide Panividai at least once daily.
 * These centres are considered abode of Dharma. The Nizhal Thangals formed an important institution in the socio-religious life of the people of Ayyavazhi. All these worship centers conducts Panividai at least once a day, while some others do twice or thrice.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word. This is a very obscure sentence which really doesn't say too much in a direct way.
 * In Akilam, the ethical abstracts are pointed out as "told by God" at several places at different situations to lesser god-heads, devas, saints etc when asked by them. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) This shows how society, its people, the ruling king, etc., lived in absolute harmony with nature, placing the power of almighty in all their works, deeds and activities, during early ages. In return, nature and the divine beings protect the society which follows the Neetham.
 * This shows separately that how the society, its people, the ruling king, etc., lived in absolute harmony with nature, placing the power of almighty in all their works deeds and activities, during early ages. And in turn how the nature and the divine beings protects the society which follows the Neetham.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word or it just about is repeating itself again... Chastity and 'life in ultimate union with nature' form the central theme, an ethical form that is to be followed.
 * Chastity and 'life in ultimate union with nature' form the central theme. This Neetham is quoted in Akilam as saying how the people of early age lived in detail and was derived from there as an ethical form that is to be followed
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Reword. Verb and subject agrreement. (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) As in Akilam, Vinchai are the rules and regulations provided by God (Narayana) to Vaikundar.
 * As in Akilam, Vinchai is the rules and regulations provided by God (Narayana) to Vaikundar. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) There are three such Vinchais. These were regulations provided by the Father, Narayana to the Son Vaikundar. Acts found there also fit to humans to improve their moral code.
 *  Three such Vinchais are there. Though this was found as regulations provided by the Father, Narayana to the Son Vaikundar, it was considered that many of the acts found there fits also to humans to improve their moral code. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word .... Charity in social ethics and 'attempting to realize the ultimate truth of oneness' in spirituality are the ethical codes under the banner of Ayyavazhi dharma.
 * Charity in sociology and 'attempting to realizing the ultimate truth of oneness' in spiritual are the ethical codes under the banner of Ayyavazhi dharma. 
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word - (If this is Indian-English dialect leave a note please.) Akilam narrates the central themes of the scriptures regarding Ayyavazhi ethics. Akilam is given to mankind because Kaliyan destroy the vedas and Shastras and at the beginning of Kali Yuga several additions were given to the previous scriptures.
 * This above sentence is followed by three also words. None of the also words are required.
 * On one hand Akilam outputs a view that the central themes of the previous scriptures are churned-out and are assembled in it and on the other hand is says that Kaliyan destroy the vedas and Shastras and also performed several additions to the previous scriptures at the beginning of Kali Yuga and hence the Akilam is given to mankind
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

RE-word...rejecting them could refer to either rejecting the view points or rejecting the scriptures the way this is worded. Also is it pertinent to the article itself?
 * These both view points give the view of Akilam on Hindu Scriptures, and place them as reasons for rejecting them.
 * Akilam rejects the whole Hindu scriptures(not only their view points).. - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * IMAGES
 * The Image:Swamithoppe pathi .jpg needs a fair use rationales on the image description in wikicommons which is explicit for your article on Ayyavazhi. For an example of what to do look at the Image:Krishna-arjun.jpg for the article Bhagavad Gita or even the Peter Jennings and how it has used fair use explanation for the featured article on Peter Jennings.  See also Non free content.
 * DONE. - PAUL   RAJ  21:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * REFERENCES
 * Process of checking all internet references.
 * Footnote 6 is not really a reference as all links are to wikipedia articles, and is just extra clarification. It would be an addition to the article proper rather than a footnote.
 * Reference 48 gives a library catalogue database referring to the book cited. For the article fact, a page number from the book is requested.
 * DONE - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Reference 75 does no longer exist.
 * Cinesouth (Daily News). Bhagyaraj acts as Viakuntaswamy in 'Ayya Vazhi' : "Vaikuntaswamy was a thorn in the flesh of royalty with his views where people themselves were considered gods.". Retrieved on February 16, 2007.
 * DONE(The page was missing and so removed) - PAUL   RAJ  20:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Reference 108 no longer esists.
 * ^ www.nairs.org Are the Travancore Kings Nairs?. "It is worth mentioning here that Chattambi Swamikal and Sreenarayana Gurudevan were ardent devotees of Lord Muruka, so also their predecessor Ayya Vaikuntar." :This statement says that Both Chattampi Swamikal and Narayana Guru are the predecessors (disciples) of Vaikundar. Retrieved on September 9, 2007.
 * DONE(The pages were moved and the current URL is placed.) - PAUL   RAJ  20:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Reference 109 No longer exists.
 * ^ www.nairs.org - Marutwamala : Heritage Site Threatened 15/9/2007, "as two of the great sages and social reformers Chattambi Swamikal and Shree Narayana Gurudevan, born in the leading Nayar and Ezhava communities, lived and did penance here before embarking on their mission of liberating the caste ridden people. They were believed to be influenced by the teachings of Ayya."
 * DONE(The pages were moved and the current URL is placed.) - PAUL   RAJ  20:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Reference 122?? no longer exists
 * ^ See http://www.vaikunt.org/AyyaVaikuntar/index.htm
 * This URL is still working. - PAUL   RAJ  20:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The numbering system for the references is going wonky. Perhaps two columns is better than 3.  The numbers are tending to start over again, and repeat themselves.
 * I believe that is all to check for now...I looked over grammar, images, references, broadness, controversy. You caught up to my comments extremely well.  I will close for tonight, and peek in again.  Then it should be good to go, if the last few points can be tweaked as well!! :-)  Kind Regards 04:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)SriMesh |  talk

Stopped at Reference 48 upon reviewing the website citations of references and their facts. As it was getting late. Will continue again. The Manual of Style peer review was given previously, and not addressed in the article itself yet. Still have to study references, scope and images for GAR. I will continue to make comments as above, submitter has not replied. If my comments change from the Indian English dialect too much, state such. However, I believe, that many of the above comments are just about content, and spelling as well. Even in english grammar, it is requested that vague terms of size which are often unnecessary and redundant be eliminated. Such is the case here as well I believe as it is a lengthy article. Some concepts are stated twice in a row as well. Submitter has replied, and seems like he will do well in making improvements to article, though lengthy.


 * NOTE: I read the article on the Indian English dialect article, but this article has both English and Indian English dialect, as there must have been more than one editor already on the article, and it should be consistent.  My comments are not for the Indian English dialect.  Some comments or spellings may not be correct for the Indian English dialect, however, just as articles must choose between English, American or Canadian spellings, so must this article be all the way Indian English dialect or all the way English dialect, and not half and half.  Choose the comments of grammar and spelling above which can be corrected, whilst retaining the Indian English dialect, and leave a note for the others please which need to be the same as stated.  Thank you.

SriMesh | talk  04:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * SriMesh, Sorry for the delay; I've no access to web for the last two days. I've made some changes and now its late night(almost early morning) over here and am going to bed. I'll make the further corrections tommorrow. Thanks. - PAUL   RAJ  21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your note. I added a bit more progress, now I am in the same boat, will need to stop for the evening and begin again.  You have made simply awesome progress!!  Kind Regards and good night for tonight.  SriMesh |  talk  03:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * User:SriMesh, I've made almost all the corrections as suggested by you and the remaining few will be done soon. I request you, please suggest if any to improve the quality of the article. Thanks. - PAUL   RAJ  20:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

SriMesh | talk  18:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC) As the main member of the Assessment Team for WikiProject India, I have reassessed the article and found that this article was, and still is not up to the standard of a GA, and should not have been passed as a GA. See GA Reassessment below. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality:
 * B. MoS compliance:
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources:
 * B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * B. Focused:
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Pass or Fail:

GA Reassessment
As the main member of the assessment team for WikiProject India, I've suggested that I might reassess this article based on several concerns that have been put forward.


 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

These prose is unclear in several places, and too many non-English phrases have been used to contribute to this. The use of the word Vaikundar makes no sense (except in the lead section due to the linking to another article). However, even the other article adds to the confusion with similar prose issues. If this article is to be a summary style article of other articles (as suggested by the tag that I have removed at the top of this talk page - please do not assume WP:OWN), then those articles need to be up to scratch first. The article lacks focus with entire sentences having to go on a tangent as a result of the heavy use of non-English words, such as Poovandanthoppe. In the scriptures section, there is reference to internal evidence - what is this internal evidence? Why refer to it as internal evidence? The next sections, like the rest of the article, and the image captions, are packed with so many non-English words to add to the confusion, and these don't adhere to the manual of style guidelines for foreign terms. The beliefs section lacks much in content as it mostly focuses on reincarnation, despite the main article suggesting that there are several others. The first image in the scriptures section does not have an appropriate fair use rationale with no reference being made to what book has been used, its copyright status, what page has been photographed etc. Similarly, there are other photographs/images in the article that have doubtful licences and fair-use rationales. Please note: falsifying an image's license and fair-use rationale in Wikipedia can result in serious consequences. In addition to this, significant doubt has been cast over the reliability and verifiability of many of the references used with no consensus reached by editors. Even if the references issue could have been overlooked, I'm sorry to report that this article failed the GA and clearly, should not have been made a GA to begin with. In addition to all the above comments, a discussion about references should be opened separately until consensus is reached. Good luck! Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Re-rating of article. The two terms in particular referred to, Poovandanthoppe and Vaikundar are both names.  There is no getting around this even if they are non-English phrases.  Poovandanthoppe is the name of a village now called Swamithoppe.   Vaikundar is the name of a person who was born as Mudisoodum Perumal and later called Vaikundar.  The other terms can be re-explained in English terms  when necessary, but not the two specifically chosen.  SriMesh |  talk  01:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure there are other articles that have managed to find a way of 'getting around' issues like the one that you have mentioned. However, if it is indeed impossible to make the prose both well written, and clear throughout the article (even with respect to these names), then the article is destined to staying at a B grade as it does not come up to the required standard of other articles that are at a higher grade.


 * So, instead of making a separate sentence for explaining that the name has changed, incorporate it into the previous sentence in which the name was used. So in effect, you should be tightening the expression of the article so that every sentence is focused on the heading under which you've written it, rather than having indirectly relevent sentences floating around. Eg; Instead of having "Ayyavazhi began to be noticed initially by the large number of people gathering to worship Vaikundar (birth name 'Mudisoodum Perumal' )[28] (1809 C.E – 1851 C.E)[29] at Poovandanthoppe. Poovandanthoppe is the name of a village now called Swamithoppe. The Thuvayal thavasu..." -> try "Ayyavazhi began to be noticed initially by the large number of people gathering at the village, Poovandanthoppe to worship Vaikundar...." So a reader can click on Poovandanthoppe and after being redirected to the Swamithoppe article, the first sentence states that Swamithoppe was previously known as Poovandanthoppe. Similarly, the fact that there is no article on Vaikundar is another major concern. Anyway, good luck! Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "So, instead of making a separate sentence for explaining that the name has changed, incorporate it into the previous sentence in which the name was used. So in effect, you should be tightening the expression of the article so that every sentence is focused on the heading under which you've written it, rather than having indirectly relevent sentences floating around. Eg; Instead of having "Ayyavazhi began to be noticed initially by the large number of people gathering to worship Vaikundar (birth name 'Mudisoodum Perumal' )[28] (1809 C.E – 1851 C.E)[29] at Poovandanthoppe. Poovandanthoppe is the name of a village now called Swamithoppe. The Thuvayal thavasu..." -> try "Ayyavazhi began to be noticed initially by the large number of people gathering at the village, Poovandanthoppe to worship Vaikundar...." So a reader can click on Poovandanthoppe and after being redirected to the Swamithoppe article, the first sentence states that Swamithoppe was previously known as Poovandanthoppe..."


 * Done. -  PAUL   RAJ  08:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "if it is indeed impossible to make the prose both well written, and clear throughout the article (even with respect to these names), then the article is destined to staying at a B grade as it does not come up to the required standard of other articles that are at a higher grade... "


 * And regarding the Tamil terms there in the article, those are names. Names should be names; what ever the language. Then several terms which are mentioned in Tamil in the aritcle are called so in scriptures and by the people. So it should be mentioned so. For example "Chakra" is not a English word; But it was mentioned as so. May be, if needed its appropriate to describe a bit.


 * And Regarding Vaikundar, no need for any confusion. Vaikundar is mentioned throughout the article as if the view point of the article Ayya Vaikundar. -  PAUL   RAJ  08:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "Vaikundar is mentioned throughout the article". So what? Readers are not expected to look for what this means (or who this is) each time the term/word/name occurs. The prose of the article is certainly not clear, let alone professional. Also, as a suggestion; rather than attempting to justify the flaws of the article (including the issue of references, and the less-than-clear prose, whether it's names or words), taking on the comments and criticisms in a more constructive way may be more beneficial towards to the result you are hoping for. It would also help to take your time during editing rather than trying to finish things quickly as it is clearly compromising on the quality of the article. If a comment/criticism is made, then it would be wise to ensure that the flaw/error does not have another occurence elsewhere in the article (as it is not the responsibility of reviewers or the assessment team to point out every occurence of a flaw - we simply point out the different types of flaws that are present so you can go through and fix them and ensure that it does not occur anywhere else in the article). Again, this requires patience, time, effort and hard work, and can be a rather overwhelming commitment at times. However, it's an extensive process that editors have to go through to bring truely good/feature articles in Wikipedia. I suggest that you carefully read and re-read this suggestion, considering that the article has failed as a FA for the second time, and failed the GA too. Best wishes! Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly saying, actually I don't understand what you've told. Are you telling that the term Vaikundar mentioned in the article is not clear? If so, how? I feel that the Vaikundar article is good enough to introduce Vaikundar though it is not in a class level. I feel things here won't confuse anybody. -  PAUL   RAJ  13:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is not clear enough. You've mentioned Ayya Vaikundar perhaps only once in the lead section, all other sections simply refer to Vaikundar. If someone was to randomly pick a section of the article and start reading, there would be no sense in the loose use of the word/name 'Vaikundar' - there should be a wikilink to the article at the very least. They should not have to scroll up and read the lead section in order to find the link. Understand? I hope you understood everything else I said in the above reply too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So you are telling that there should be wikilink for the term Vaikundar throughout the article in good number. It was so once. But someone commented on it and asked me to remove those links and that there should be one link for one article in an article. So it was removed. It will be done soon, Thanks. -  PAUL   RAJ  20:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, yes, but one shouldn't get carried away with wikilinking either. Once per paragraph is perhaps ideal. Avoiding the overuse of such relatively unknown terms/names is another +ive. There are several other names/terms that similarly need wikilinking, including the name of certain Indian states. Good luck again! Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your suggestions; will be done soon. -  PAUL   RAJ  13:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Expertise needed

 * 1) This article, though containing significant amount of info, needs a thorough review to better organise the article and make it more comprehensible to English readers. I have commented about this in the FAC review as well. There are too many non-English words being used in the article which makes the article hardly readable.
 * 2) A websearch on the term "Ayyavazhi" hardly reveals any decent articles. Most of the articles and citations quoted are from books in the Tamil language. An expert is needed to judge the reliability of such books/citations, since these books can be written for the purpose of propogating the religion and could exaggerate facts which might not be the reality. As an example, books from publications like "Ayya Vaikundar Thirukkudumbam Publications", "Ayya Vaikunta Nather Sidhasramam", "Akilam Publications", "Ayyavaikuntanathar Siddasramam Publications" which have been used in the article. --  ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 17:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This (reliability of authors and Publications) is really a common problem when using books as citations, when published in regional languages especially when those lack ISBN.


 * But here in this case (quoted above), as used in the article, those from "Ayya Vaikundar Thirukkudumbam Publications" and "Akilam Publications" are belief oriented. So sentence quoted from these books can be there in the article as if the view point of them. Some thing like, ("As per Ayyavazhi belief...", or "Ayyavazhi's claim...") It, i feel don't violates the wiki NPOV policy. And in the case of "Ayya Vaikunta Nather Sidhasramam Publications" the reliablility can be assured since it had been accredited by an University (possibly from Kerala), though published by someone else. This citation can be considered as a NPOV statement and could mentioned in the article as so.


 * I remember i'd also added some citations. I too have copies of some of the books here in the reference section. Any clarifications needed on them please ask. Thanks. - White Dot...!!!&reg; 14:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)