Talk:Azande people/Archive 1

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Request for edit
We need to amend various articles in here to reflect who are the real Azande. It doesn't seem, the Azande has ever practiced homosexuality's in the past nor having being a witchcrafts. This is a humiliation and disaffirming to the Azande society written by the whites and must be changed with immediate effect.

Unsubstantiated changes
The last two changes to the article by two anonymous editors are very strange, and I can't make up my mind if it's vandalism, someone being very confused, or I'm simply wrong. These changes include changing the statement that the plural of Azande is Bazande (a statement that appears in many web pages!) into a statement that the singular is Zande and the plural is Azande. Another change explains their whichcraft beliefs (source???), and another change talks about a tribe with a tail (?!). I'm itching to just revert all these bizarre changes, but I'm waiting for other people's comments, or some time to do some more research myself. Nyh 10:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Except for the last change (the tribe with tails) these all appear to be from E.E. Evans-Pritchard's "Men Bewitch Others When They Hate Them" in Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic Amond the Azande Oxford: Clarendon Press 1968, pages 107-117. 131.247.37.100 00:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Nyh,

I agree with the revert, but it would be nice to include some of the new information as HISTORY. Evans-Pritchard originally wrote that book in the 30s. I said it down below, but I'll say it again: We need to use up-to-date information; otherwise, we'll perpetuate stereotypes and what is now misinformation.

By the way, in Pazande, the plural of Zande is Azande; in Lingala/Bangala (the regional language the Azande speak in the DRC), the plural is Kizande.

Also, I think the reference to Niam-Niam is passé. I never heard of the term until I read this article. No Zande ever told me "Don't confuse us with the Niam-Niam." Maybe it was pertinent in Evans-Pritchard's day, but not now. Dblomgren 04:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Like the "The Name" section (that I wrote) explains, the name "Niam-Niam" is indeed "passe" - it was common in the 19th century, but isn't used today. Should we mention it? I think the answer is yes; In fact, the reason I started contributing to this page at all was that I read a book by Jules Verne which mentioned the tribe "Niam Niam", and didn't know it was a real or fictitious tribe, and wanted to learn more about it. As you can see in the "external links" section, Jules Verne was not the only person using the name "Niam Niam" - in the early 20th century the Encyclopedia Britannica had an article with that name. So I do think it is worth mentioning this archaic name. Nyh 13:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I decided to be bold and revert to the December 8th version. I've copied the text from the December 12th version and will insert it where appropriate. User:129.81.146.18 apparently noted their sources by writing "s-1" etc., which I assume refers to the sources listed at the bottom of their text. My only worry is that User 129 wrote may have taken the text verbatim from the sources and I'll be plagiarizing. Therefore, I'll probably reword the text and note the source. If there are any comments, questions, or snide remarks :), you know how to reach me. --Dblomgren 02:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through the text posted on December 12th and find that what I thought were source notes do not correspond to the sources cited. For example, source 8 was http://www.gurtong.org/resourcecenter/people/profile_tribe.asp?TribeID=29 but the text supposedly based on this was not on that webpage. Neither that webpage nor the other webpage cited, http://lucy.ukc.ac.uk/EthnoAtlas/Hmar/Cult_dir/Culture.7829, give sources for their information, so I'm not going to include info found on those sites.

The other seven sources cited by User:129.81.146.18 are books that I don't have access to, so I'm not going to cite them either.

In the meantime, I'm going to try to start a research project on the Azande by Azande so we can get some up-to-date information. --Dblomgren 21:12, 26 December 2006 (UTC) I conquer with argument to remove out the niam niam name from records. This name does not have any basis, no Zande person knows that they are called niam niam. In the old days, villagers from far places used names to call people who were not part of their ethnic groups but this did not amount to adopted names for the concerned groups. As Dinkas called Zandes niam niam, Zandes called them Zenge meaning naked people. This has not amounted to dinkas being being called Zenge.

One item is Zande has not been associated with any other groups according to Wikipedia records. The Azande people are actually part of Bantu group. The origin, language, cultural practice are evidence that Zande ethnic group is part of Bantu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.138.35.174 (talk) 08:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello Nyh, I believe what Sir E.E. Evans-Pritchard wrote was based on his own opinion not of the Azande opinion. First of all, when he (Evans-Pritchard) visited the Azandeland, not many of the Azande did speak English. I even wondered what language did they used to communicate in as none of the Azande speaks English and Evans-Pritchard didn't speak Pa-Zande? I can even say by then, the Azande didn't have time to speak to Evans-Pritchard, as they were afraid he'll eat them. If I may suggest, if anyone wanting to write about the Azande please visit Zandeland or speak to one of Azande intellectual so they may give you correct information about who the Azande are. In fact, the word Niam-Niam is neither offensive or acceptable among the Azande people. Hence, it should be eliminated. As I stated in other articles, the Azande are one of the Bantu groups. They're known as: Azande for plural (the word Bazande is use in Lingala language for Azande and the language is call Kizande), Zande for singular speak, Pa-Zande "Zande language".

Niam-Niam
Someone added to the end of the paragraph explaining the old name Niam-Niam, a sentence saying:


 * The Niam-Niam (or Nyam-Nyam) a subgroup of the Azande multi-ethnic group.

This sentence outright contradicts the paragraph before it, so the two cannot stay together! I'm removing this sentence because I cannot find a reference for it. Can someone find a reference? Which subgroup does the name "Niam-Niam" refer to? Is this only the case today, or was the Niam-Niam as used by Encyclopedia Britannica, by Jules Verne (see http://jv.gilead.org.il/pg/cinq/19.html), and by other contemporaries also referring only to a subgroup? Does this subgroup agree to its naming "Niam Niam", or is it still a pejorative term?

Nyh 10:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I'm starting to answer myself. I'll start with sources supporting the above line. In in the following paragraph can be found:


 * Niam Niam (Nyam Nyam) A subgroup of the Azande, a multi-ethnic group known for warrior qualities who live in northern Democratic Republic of Congo. They are an agricultural group that raises maize, yams, manioc, nuts, and bananas. They grow cotton, tobacco, and jute as cash crops.

In, the following paragraph appears:


 * The Azande, as they exist today, are an agglomeration of indigenous and invading Sudanic peoples, whose different origins, languages, and cultures over a period of two centuries have become homogenized into a more or less common social pattern. This process has taken place through the military and political domination of the Ambomu conquerors under the leadership of the ruling sib, the Avungara. The name "Azande" is spelled with many variations, such as Asande, Assandeh, Asandeh, Badjande, Bazende, Basingi, Sande, and Sandeh. In common usage, "Azande" is used when referring to an individual, or simply as an adjective. Sometimes the name of a section is used to signify the whole group, as in Abandiya, Adio, Avungara, Makaraka, and Niam-Niam (also called Gnam-Gnam, Dem-Dem, Jem-Jem, and Lem-Lem).

The first problem with these sources is that they don't really answer any of my question (is this more-specific designation 'niam-niam' something new, whereas the equation of niam-niam with Azande something from the late 19th century? Is the name 'niam-niam' no longer pejorative?)

Moreover, other sources say something else. Encyclopedia Britannica says that "Azande" is another name for the Niam-Niam. MSN Encarta says the same: Azande, also known as the Nyam-Nyam, not that Nyam-Nyam is only a subgroup.

appears to be an interesting letter from 1945 about names of dog breeds. It says:


 * ... these names are ridiculous and should be altered while there is yet time. Nyam-Nyam was the old slavers' name for Azande and allied races. It was probably coined from the Dinka name "Nimyam" which is onomatopoeic, meaning cannibal. As a name it is locally considered insulting and has died out.

Again, this doesn't agree with Niam-Niam being a modern name for part of the Azande.

Another page says this:


 * The Bahr el Ghazal Handbook says that the name is probably of onomatopoeic origin and was originally applied to the unknown conglomeration of people whose cannibal propensities were a matter of common report. It now seems to have become the general name in the Sudan for the Azande, though it is not used by the Officials in the South of the Province, who have to differentiate between many different tribes all of whom are described further north as Nyam-Nyam. This name, being as I have said completely meaningless, might be discarded.” Major R. G. C. Brock. Some Notes on the Azande Tribe as Found in the Meridi District (Bahr El Ghazal Province). Sudan Notes and Records. 1918; 1: 249-262.

The last two quotes imply that the name Niam-Niam was once used for the Azande and more, rather than for just a part of the Azande! It also imples that "Niam Niam" is an archaic name which should not be used today.

Nyh 10:37, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Almost daily rituals to protect against witchcraft?
Quote from article: "Because witchcraft is believed to always be present, there are several rituals connected to protection and cancelling of witchcraft that are performed almost daily." I put the "citation needed" remark because I lived with Azande for two years and never saw these almost-daily rituals. I only saw one ritual and that was at a funeral (washing your hands after shaking hands with family of the deceased). I suspect this information is from some outdated anthropological source. I think we need to use up-to-date information; otherwise, we'll perpetuate stereotypes. Dblomgren 05:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a source for it but the source may be outdated. We should explicitly date the sources when we use possibly outdated sources. Andries 18:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Template for ethnic group articles
I just discovered this template for ethnic group articles. I'm posting it here so I and other interested editors can follow it. --Dblomgren 00:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sexual Inversion among the Azande
There is nothing mentioned in this article about the practice of bachelors in the military companies who would take boy-wives due to the scarcity of women (due to harems). The boys were treated as wives and served their husbands, including satisfying their husbands' sexual needs. The men would eventually take a wife and the boys would become men that could take on their own boy-wives. Source: "Sexual Inversion among the Azande" by E.E. Evans-Pritchard. In American Anthropologist, 1970, 72: 1428-1434. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.53.85 (talk) 18:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello again here, This is 100% untrue story about the Azande. Azande male practice polygamy till this day, how can they go start sleeping with boys while they've many wives at home? The wives themselves do convince other woman to marry her husband. This is a total damage to the Azande image and need to be change with immediate effects. What I know as one of Zande intellectual is: The Azande like to have sex, but they do this with opposite sex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbakote (talk • contribs) 17:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Zande and Wichcraft.
The Zande people believe that witchcraft is a real danger to their people. They have been know to believe that people can be born with the inheritance of witchcraft and that they can cause harm to others without releasing their influences onto other people. The perform rituals to try and release people from this burden and even use oracles to help them pinpoint the members of their community that are damned with this gift. The source is old and from other readings i feel like the information is not correct. Some of the readings i am referring to are anthropologist that have spent time with the Zande people and they say that these rituals hardly ever happen. I am not sure what to believe but would like to have some clarification. Anyone with more information please comment and help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.171.94.162 (talk) 19:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello everyone, Other Azande intellectuals and I have 100& disagreed with this so called E.E Pitchers articles on the Azande that they believe in "Witchcraft", "Oracles" etc. What the other Azande intellectuals and I know is, the Azande do practice "Oracles" known as Iwa in Pa-Zande. Other team for Iwa can be described in English as DNA and in real life, the do the Iwa spell as Hi-wa in part to prevail justice whether the criminal committed crime or not and before court of law. We do see this things everywhere especially in western countries. Hence, we the Azande intellectuals are seeing all these bad writing as portaging us the Azande as bad people, people who know nothing other than practicing witchcrafts yet we don't and do see witchcraft as treat and harm to the community. I'm suggesting all this bad writing damaging, the Azande image need to be change with immediate effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbakote (talk • contribs) 17:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

never been conquered
It should be added that they are one of a few african tribes to have never been conquered and the fact that even to this day they view muslims/arabs as their enemies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.173.73 (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually they were conquered by the Belgian Force Publique in 1904-05. There is an entire chapter on this in "Small Wars & Skirmishes" by Edwin Herbert. 69.115.242.114 (talk) 00:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)Correction- The Zande were not conquered by any Belgian forces before during or after 1904-1905. The Belgians made two separate attempts to colonize territory inhabited by the Zande and were slaughtered both times. The first time happened in 1893 and the second time occurred in 1910. The Zande although known for not taking "prisoners" on both occasions allowed a few Belgian soldiers to survive but were made slaves. This was covered in depth in the book "Colonization Failures" Steven Rothberg

Unsourced changes
A quantity of unsourced changes have been made repeatedly. Could we discuss these here please, and name the sources from which the information came? Wikipedia has a policy of using only Verifiable facts, so no matter how sure anyone is that something is true, it is essential to cite Reliable Sources to enable other editors to check the facts. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:36, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Zande bantu?
If zande speak an Ubangian language they are not bantu. That section needs a correction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.227.73.176 (talk) 15:10, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The Azande are Bantu speaking groups. For example: Azande have only 24 alphabets, we don't have "C", "J" "L" and "X". We use K for Kanada instead of saying Canada. G for G and we use it for J too, There is no "L" in Pa-Zande, we call Lime as Rime and no vowel for "X" in Pa-Zande at all. So the Azande can be describe as: "Adamawa–Ubangi a branch of the Bantu family" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbakote (talk • contribs) 17:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Undermining "The Azande People"
It has come to our attention as, "The Azande People" that, many especially the Whiteman are overstepping and undermining us the Azande people right now by removing what we strongly believe are relevant to us as people. Please let's know if those of you overstepping and undermining know more about us than we "The Azande" do know about ourselves. Once again, below are genuine link to what we believe are relevant to our history not what was written by a Whiteman E.E. Evans Pritchard and many other Whiteman

https://epauf.wordpress.com/2020/09/18/azande-post/

Please re-add back what we did added and if you can't please stop reverting our article as you're just a contributor as we're. We also have many of our writers who are willing to contribute what are relevant to us the Azande. Thanks,

Azande Intellectuals
 * , please read reliable sources to learn about sourcing requirements for Wikipedia articles. A Wordpress site is not a reliable source. Schazjmd   (talk)  16:10, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Alright, then what if an individual person want to contribute to the site and have relevant info based on his/her knowledge? What are the criteria of doing so?
 * , on wikipedia, that's considered original research and is strictly forbidden. Content in articles must be verifiable by readers. Schazjmd   (talk)  16:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, does that mean what we write as Azande Intellectuals are strictly forbidden and what was written by E.E. Evans Pritchard and other white people are true story about the Azande and that's the only article that can be publish about the Azande right?
 * It means that Wikipedia must rely on reliably published sources for information in our articles, such as information published in journals, books, magazines, and newspapers. Academic journals and books are preferable. Schazjmd   (talk)  16:58, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Adding to article
Hi, I am adding some infomation to history and traditional beliefs. Also, creating a new section about their art. Here is a link to my sandbox draft if you have any concerns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:NKUstudent/Zande_people NKUstudent (talk) 15:18, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced lead, failed verification in "Name" section
The lead contains the most important part of any article: the definition of the term discussed. It also offers the main info for those not willing to read the entire article. A poorly sourced lead diminishes the entire article or renders it useless or misleading.

I found the lead containing almost only unsourced material, which is also never dealt with anywhere in the article. This is deadly.

I have added material and changed content according to the short entry on the British Museum website, maybe not ideal but at least something. For the distribution area, BM says NW DRC, NE is unsourced; same for specifically southeastern CAR; "south-central and SW part of" South Sudan unsourced (BM entry possibly predates est. of South Sudan, that would explain why it doesn't mention it).

"Google Search" is not a source. It's cited as the only source for the Zande-Bantu connection.

In the "Name" section, Kramer et al. was left to cover for a lot of claims it doesn't contain. Arminden (talk) 06:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

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