Talk:Azawagh

This is Azawagh, not Azawad nor Azaouad, please stop redirecting azawad/azaouad here
I'm sorry if you guys cannot read French, because most of the research on Tuaregs have been made in French so far, and if you can read "Encyclopédie Berbère", there is two distinctives articles, one for the Azawad, which have ALWAYS BEEN the Malian desert, and the other one for Azawagh and Azawak, which is a more general term about the area where Tuaregs can speak "TAWELLEMET" dialect. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I'll soon provide an article on AZAWAD with crystal clear references and I hope that it won't be reverted again as I'm getting sick of it. Best regards --BabyFoot (talk) 15:35, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Totally agree with you. There should be two distinct articles, one named AZAWAD and one named AZAWAGH, clearly differentiated (although with explanatory notes at the start of each, referring to the other article; that should hopefully stop further reversions). But that means changing the title of this article from Azaouad (which is simply the French spelling of the name Azawad, as French doesn't use a "w") to Azawagh. Rif Winfield (talk) 08:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

MOVE REQUEST : Azaouad to Azawagh
Azawagh

This article named Azaouad describes Azawagh. The differences between the two is clear : - Azawad/Azaouad refers to a geographical area (Northern-Mali), early sources from Ch.Foucauld describes this word as geographic (it includes all saharan nomads living in...) - Azawagh instead, describes the extent of ethnic Tuaregs speaking area and exlude other nomads groups. A single search on Google helps to see the differences between the two word. Azaouad content need to be moved into Azawagh. On French Wikipedia, the differences between the two is very clear. Azaouad needs to redirect to Azawad article. --BabyFoot (talk) 17:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Your proposed move makes sense, but can you please provide more specific sources that make this distinction? (I do read French if necessary.) The French wikipedia doesn't appear to have a source for the claim that these need to be considered separate entities.
 * Also, you'll want to follow the directions at Requested moves to file a move request other people will notice and comment on. Thanks! Khazar2 (talk) 06:41, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * If you could provide reliable sources confirming that Azawagh is the correct name for what is described in this article, I would support a move. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Azaouad/Azawad/Azawagh
I've opened a discussion on this issue here to try to get it all in one place. Khazar2 (talk) 03:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

removing unsourced material
I've removed the following unsourced and arguably POV material from the article, but I'd be fine with its reintroduction if it can be reliably sourced:


 * After Mali gained independence in 1960, Azawad become a part of Mali. With independence, the numerous black African peoples (Soudanais or Haratines) and the Azawadis (Arab and Tuareg, Songhay) lived peacefully in Mali . Many of the Azawadis became clerks, soldiers and civil servants.


 * A schism then developed between those Moors who consider Azawad as a part of Arab countries and those who seek a dominant role for the non-Moorish peoples in this region. Various models for maintaining the country's cultural diversity without conflict were suggested, but none of them were implemented successfully. Ethnic discord was further evident during sectarian violence that broke out in 1991 as a result of the killing of about 50 civilian men of Arab origin. Azawadis saw the event racism directed at them. Following the violence, the Azawadi people left their homes in Mali to go to refugee camps in Mauritania, Algeria and Burkina Faso. Some Tuareg also went to Libya where they were integrated into the Libyan Army.


 * With the discovery of oil in 2006 in the Azawad region, as well as the War on Terror and the presence of Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, the issues of discord came to light.
 * -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

How to overhaul this one?
This article needs some pretty serious work. The one source it has that clearly refers to "Azawagh" describes Azawagh solely as a part of Niger.p. 13-14 Otherwise, it appears to be predominantly original or unsourced research, all of which was added when the article had the title of "Azaouad", which appears to be synonymous with Azawad rather than Azawagh. Honestly, I'm tempted to just cut this down to something the size of the French wiki article, while leaving in place that "See Also", which seems helpful. But even then we still have the problem of definition. Any thoughts on how to resolve this? I'll probably start chopping in 24-48 hours. Khazar2 (talk) 17:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This source focuses solely on the Azawagh basin (which is, in my opinion, the most practicable option to define Azawagh) and seems to be comprehensive and full of information in terms of geography and pre- and early history. Alas, I have some difficulties with translating geographic specialist terms from French to English (neither being my native language). So, how is your French? --RJFF (talk) 18:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * My French is pretty good, but I may not be able to handle the technical stuff either. I'll try to give it a whirl later on today. Thanks for finding this! Khazar2 (talk) 18:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Population
The sources seem to contradict each other. While Mr. Paris describes the basin having 420,000 sq.km, Mrs. Popenoe says that the "Azawagh region of Niger" has the size of Austria (i.e. 84,000 sq.km). Also her map displays only a part of Niger, not a cross-border region stretching into Mali and Algeria. Paris and Popenoe seem to use different definitions of Azawagh. If Mrs. Popenoe regards only a section of the Azawagh basin, we should not use the number of inhabitants according to her (or, at least, use a formulation like "Nigerien Azawagh" or "the Azawagh region of Niger"). --RJFF (talk) 21:25, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point. Let me review that source again and consider phrasing. Khazar2 (talk) 21:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)