Talk:Aziz Herawi

Tajik?
Is he ethnically Tajik? Badagnani (talk) 06:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. If he is Then please provide a source otherwise he should mention his ethnicity why should we label him as Tajik. When he himself, proudly calls himself "Afghan". Alishah85 (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Dadagnani believe me I have looked around and searched for his source of being Tajik but I found non. In fact I have many other links from his interview where he proudly says "I am Afghan". I think this was changed by few member who really don't know much about him.


 * thnaks Alishah85 (talk) 17:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If he's a Dari speaker (i.e., Tajik) it seems worthy of mention. Badagnani (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Badagnani: Dari is spoken by majority percentage of Afghanistan (89-99% of Afghanistan). In fact Dari had always been a national language from all known Afghan empires, it has historical roots and Afghans were involved in completing the formation of this language which is why modern Dari has Pashtu/Avestaic roots aside from Middle Persian Pahlavi and Arabic. Even today if you don't want to go back to history then look at Karzai he is fully Dari speaker so is he a Tajik? I can name 100s like him who clearly speaks Dari but their last name identifies them "Afghan". Remember Tribalism is practiced by over 75% of the people and every person from Afghanistan has a identified Tribal name. In here his last name is "Heriwi" meaning a native "HErati" its not a tribal name but a more accepted and respectable name identified with Herat and representing all people of Herat.


 * Therefore his name identify him as native of Herat. But this we cannot say oh he must be divided by language and therefore since 95-99% of Heratis speak "Dari", therefore 95%-99% are all Tajiks, in fact Herat's of the population  has large number of people whose names identifies them as an Afghan, and closely associated with tribes whom majority are Pashtu speakers, in west we assume they are [Pashtuns]]. whom one of the 4th largest tribal system  True 55% of Heratis speak Dari but still over 40% speaks "Pashtu". Afghan is a origin of people, a different meaning from being Afghanistani, like those who are immigrants of Afghanistan, came countries in north of Afghanistan.  Karzai is a Dari speaker and you should see his TV speech its almost always "Dari".


 * If you still don't agree then you should know at least this, that by speaking a language identified with neighbors does not mean he/she is of that neighbor, unless the person claims himself openly that he is "Tajik" like Latif Pedram.


 * Further more Tajiks speaks a different Persian known as Tajiki a dialect different from Iranian Persian Farsi, or Afghan Persian Dari.


 * Anyways Tajik in Terms of Origin refers to people of Central Asia. Which is closely related with people can easily be grouped as one ie their facial looks, etc etc. Those many Afghans think of Tajiks as Immigrants from Turkistan. According to themselves Tajiks did cross border into Afghanistan, and because 27% of Afghans identify their mother language as "Dari" a dialect of Persian. Therefore they were all assumed into one group called "Tajiks" the first sources of the word "Tajik" is from Russian era not English. Anyways Afghans believe Tajiks are non-Afghans. And they view them as "Outsiders" what gets worse is that Afghans themselves who speak "Dari" has also been identified as "Tajiks". Ouch! Tajik (Tajiki Persian, Galcha) is a member of the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Tajik is the local name used for Persian in Tajikistan, a former Soviet Tajikistanrepublic in Central Asia, where it is spoken by 3.3 million people. Tajiks are the principal ethnic group in most of Tajikistan, in northeastern Afghanistan and in the cities of Kabul, Mazar-e-Sharif, and Herat. Tajiks also dominate the population of the cities of Bukhara and Samarkand in Uzbekistan. The worldwide population of Tajik speakers is estimated at around 4.4 million people (Ethnologue). There are several unproven theories about origin of the name Tajik.

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/february/Tajik.html As you see main cities of northern Afghanistan has been mentioned including Herat.


 * Consider this to be true

Heraties are mad up of many groups but Afghans make up 70% of Herats. How?


 * Well here is how it may go if i claim 70%.


 * First of all Herat Province has some 1.8 million people (2008) with some 23% of the population of approximately 1.8 million is situated mainly in the rural areas.


 * We already know 35% of Heratis speak Pashto, identified as Pashtun and therefore fallow the link and there you should see a map, watch the areas colored as Pashtun. SO there goes 35% Pashtun. to prove myself we still have 35% to go, Ok pay attention to these Afghan tribal names, remember Tribalism is only practiced by true Afghans not by others. So watch it closely the Afghan tribal areas do not necessary speaks Pushtu, therefore they cannot be Pashtun, but this is not to say they are not of Afghan origin, clearly majority of those tribal people speak Pashtu which over all represents 38-48% of Afghanistan.


 * They are nicely colored 1.Achakzai Durrani, 2. Other Durrani, 3. Nurzai Durrani, 4. Taimuri?? Right on these people should represent at least 10-15% of Herat province.


 * Again since central region of Herat (watch in the map) alone according to Wikipedia holds some 0.35 million or 350,000 people. Pay a close attention to center region basically divided by two colors, half of Western Herat is colored as "Mixed Tribes" referring to Afghans tribes, on the east the other half of central Herat is colored as "Tajik & Pashtun". Again remember 350,000 of 1.8 million is like like 25%, yet even the center of Herat city is being challenged to be 50% Afghan tribal people, and other half is shared by Tajik & Pashtuns.


 * ALSO CHECK MY SOURCES BOTH OF THEM WHICH I USED ARE WELL KNOW FAMOUS SITES of NON-GOV or researched sites.


 * People specially in Wikipedia is playing around otherwise if everything worked out in Wikipedia, it would too be recognized as a first source, but unfortunately because of narrow minded people in general despite having greater hands in Wikipedia are not working into making sure this lovely site gets supports.


 * Anyways Dear Badagnan if you still think Dari speakers=Tajik. Good luck because that's one of the reasons of confusion made by many westerners who misunderstood this "Complex" Afghan society, assuming people wrongly and classifying them. If Language truly represents Race, why not lets just assume 25% of India having English as their mother tongue should also be recognized as True English (Anglo-saxons), just as they word applied to them English for so many years before they reach into an Empire.


 * Believe me it would be wrong to assume everyone same as "Anglo-Saxons" or English people, spoken as a First language by some 309–400 million. (Wiki source English Language


 * http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/february/Tajik.html


 * http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/Herat/Herat.pdf


 * http://www.nps.edu/programs/ccs/Herat/Herat.html


 * Please read over see if i make made a little sense out of this, and if so I would recommend the word "Farsiwan" considering his Language or Afghan considering majority of its Racial group despite what language they speak.


 * Alishah85 (talk) 04:02, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Alishah85 (talk) 05:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

My user name is "Badagnani" and no one is playing here. The Tajiks article identifies ethnic Tajiks in Afghanistan (Afghan citizens) as Dari speakers. Badagnani (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All X are Y does not mean that All Y are X. What I suspect that the editor is saying is that speaking Dari, by itself, does not say anything about ethnicity. --Bejnar (talk) 20:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The Farsiwan article is very interesting. Badagnani (talk) 04:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Badagnani Please don't be disappointed by all means i was referring in general. You have a point, I mean that's how Tajik has been identified and its your and my job to make sure we Wikipedia and share the knowledge, along with sources.


 * Yes Farsiwan is very hard for many westerners to understand to whom it refers to but I as an Afghan myself know that this group refers to some 13-15% of the population who lets assume were natives of Afghanistan many have tribal names, but don't fallow tribalism. There are many people who belong to this branch like Naim Popal, Ahmad Zahir, and Abdul Rahim Sarban. For example I have a documentary Video where its all about Abdul Rahim Sarban and a prove of him being Afghan born in Kandahar and having a PAshtun tribal name as his last name Sarban tribe. Yet in Wikipedia it says Abdul Rahim Sarban a Tajik born in Kabul. well its ok to be born in Kabul but aren't people smart enough of knowing his tribal name? You should check it out and if you want the documentary regarding Abdul Rahim Sarban, and want to fix it up let me know.


 * Thanks


 * bye


 * Alishah85 (talk) 05:02, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ethnic data is inherently controversial. (WikiProject Ethnic groups says: "Let's be clear: ethnicity is a minefield.") "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source." and "Biographies of living persons should be sourced with particular care, for legal and ethical reasons. All contentious material about living persons must cite a reliable source." Wikipedia:Citing sources.  That article goes on to say, "If you find unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about a living person—whether in an article or on a talk page—remove it immediately." (emphasis in original).  Definitely, once ethnic data is removed or contested by another editor it must be properly sourced before reintroduction.  Additionally, "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Manual of Style (biographies) So, it seems that as a matter of Wikipedia policy we should be silent on ethnicity unless there is a citation to a reliable and verifiable source. --Bejnar (talk) 20:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Native Heratis
Native people of Herat are those who have lived in the region known by many names and many spellings such Latin Aryia, came from Greek Source Aria, Old Persian-Haraiva, Middle Pashtu-Haraeuua, and Arabic Hiryrat modern Herat. Today people may have difficulty knowing or defining native Heratis, most people of Herat share the exact culture, tradition, and facial characteristics like the rest of their country man Afghans. However since years have past and globalization did takes place or it may specially during Arabs, when Islam was promoting intermarriages, Mongolian Timurids, further later during two Persian empires Safavid and Khwarezmian, perhaps like Persian invasion the Uzbeks invasion may also had some influence. So How do we define Heratis, conflict does arrive, what should we do?

The only way back is trough tribal means, in order to define modern Heratis, we have figure the Ancient tribes of the region, perhaps modern living tribe can trace to that linkage.

Dear Bejnar on January 16 2009 at 08:34 pm this article was changed by one of wikipedia user IP: IP:71.107.11.87 with the excuse that [u]he is a Pure Herati, and Pure heratis are Tajik[/u]. Well I could easily come up with my own conclusion to who were these "Pure Heraties" if we refer to sources provided by famous well known European/Greek Historian, Herodotus, mentioining a tribe brought from Herat areas known as Saga-Rhuthia or Sagartioi, founded in the capital of Aria. According to Herodotus, Persian imperial King Xerxes bought out this fierce warriors with a high price, his army had total of 8000 strong Sagartioi riders dressed as Persian like the rest of army but were close to their neighboring "Pactyans"Pakthas in Race, "Their weapon of choice were also of Pactyans".

According to Caroe he points out the Darrani. Which can be true I mean they have three major tribes all origin of Saka or Saga and one of those Panjpai sub-tribes maybe those in modern Herat could be Sag-A-ratieo (Sagartioi) of Herodotus. Please refer to Herodotus's book, also the book called THE PATHANS 55O B.C.-A.D. by OLAF CAROE, ST MARTIN'S PRESS 1958, now without any knowledge and with some 40% of Heratis are Pashtu speakers with some 75% connected with the rest of the tribes of the Afghanistan, its impossible to say Pure Heraties are are this or that or non-Afghans. One has to define Pure and then refer to historical texts.

Again any source which supports their idea should be presented as Bejnar noted.

Thanks

Alishah85 (talk) 05:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC) Alishah85 (talk) 05:11, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

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