Talk:Aziz Khan Mokri

Mokri or Mukri?
I know you were in the loop on the edits that set the spelling at "Mokri". What sources have you got for that spelling? I'm trying to figure out what the common Romanization would be. —C.Fred (talk) 21:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)


 * You might be interested in this in the meantime. Although Masoud bukani's final comments at the ANI thread of today hinted at some sort of "change in approach", they're still unfortunately insisting, as we speak, to push through their demands without any sort of discussion nor usage of proper WP's such as WP:RM. Their attempt at opening a new front at Commons is obviously a big no-no, done deliberately in order to avoid any sort of possible scrutiny and/or rebuttal at Eng.Wiki. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I will leave a comment later here vis. the Mokri/Mukri thing and WP:COMMONNAME. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I declined the speedy-rename request at commons. DMacks (talk) 23:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * They're also being process-abusive/trying to end-run around an actual discussion or sources at commons:File:Aziz Khan Mokri, military commander in Qajar Iran.jpg. DMacks (talk) 23:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I don't get why we're using more time on what is more and more starting to look like a WP:NOTHERE user. This is the WP:RS I could think off the bat;


 * Hamzeh'ee, M. Reza (1991‎). The Yaresan. Klaus Schwarz Verlag. p. 61. "In 1610 A. D. Shah 'Abbas carried out a systematic massacre of the male members of the Mokri Kurds"
 * A. Amanat, F. Vejdani (2012). Iran Facing Others: Identity Boundaries in a Historical Perspective. Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 90–91. "...Emir Khan’s capture and death and the massacre of his followers including and the pro-Ottoman Mokrî Kurds."
 * Perry, John R. (1979). Karīm Khān Zand: A History of Iran, 1747–1779. University of Chicago Press. p. 67. "They approached via Garus (Bijar) and Mokri, recruiting additional Kurdish troops..."
 * Pierre Oberling (2017). The Qashqā’i Nomads of Fārs. De Gruyter Mouton. p. 57. "The Governor-General accepted the invitation and sent Aziz Khan Sarhang (Colonel) Mokri..."
 * Richard Tapper (1997). Frontier Nomads of Iran: A Political and Social History of the Shahsevan. Cambridge University Press. p. 422. "Sardar'Aziz Khan Mokri"
 * Ulrich Marzolph, Philip Kreyenbroek (2010). Oral Literature of Iranian Languages: Kurdish, Pashto, Balochi, Ossetic, Persian and Tajik: Companion Volume II: History of Persian Literature A, Vol XVIII. I.B. Tauris. pp. 2. "The central group includes the dialects of northern Iraq called Sorani, as well as the neighboring dialects of Iranian Kurdistan called Mokri, Kordi, or Sene'i."
 * --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * In the interest of assuming good faith, I wanted to know what the source situation is like. Or, when/if this situation comes up again from the realm of proper discussion, there's some record of the sourcing situation.
 * I agree with the concerns voiced above about abuse of process in attempts to move this article from "Mokri" to "Mukri". I have no problems with a discussion to determine what the common name is. I do have problems with edit/move warring and abuse of noticeboards. —C.Fred (talk) 00:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * In the interest of assuming good faith, I wanted to know what the source situation is like. Or, when/if this situation comes up again from the realm of proper discussion, there's some record of the sourcing situation.
 * I agree with the concerns voiced above about abuse of process in attempts to move this article from "Mokri" to "Mukri". I have no problems with a discussion to determine what the common name is. I do have problems with edit/move warring and abuse of noticeboards. —C.Fred (talk) 00:07, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Only iranicaonline wrote the names like this. Because the author of those articles is a Kurd. You can see Vladimir Minorsky's research:


 * Mongol Place-Names in Mukri Kurdistan (Mongolica, 4)
 * The Messiah of Shiraz: Studies in Early and Middle Babism
 * E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam: 1913-1936. S - Ṭaiba, Volume 7
 * GAZETTEER OF PERSIA. VOLUME II (BUKAN)
 * Kurdistan & Mukri. Britannica
 * louvre (Aziz Khan Mukri)
 * Asnad (Aziz Khan Mukri)
 * Bahai (Aziz Khan Mukri)
 * Mukri Tomb (Tomb of Aziz Khan's children and grandchildren).

Common Romanization word: Mukri is like Kurdistan.

The word mokri is not wrong, but the word Mukri is more common and most English sources write it that way. As I said, the Kurds use o instead of u. like the: use Bokan instead of Bukan. Masoud bukani (talk) 05:27, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

user HistoryofIran in this edition, it deletes the sources and does not use these sources in the article. I think he insists on using his preferred name.

If this issue is not resolved in this discussion, I invite admin's. Deleting resources and replacing them with your own resources is a form of disruption edit and forgery. Masoud bukani (talk) 06:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It's clearly not only Iranica per my comment. Also, here in Wikipedia we follow what WP:RS says, thus random links such as mapsus, bahai-libraryain't, Louvre, asnad, qdl.qa, ain't it. Also, if you slander me one more time, I will report you to WP:ANI. EDIT: He just made another undiscussed move, sorry but how much rope is he going to get? --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * How should we deal with cherry-picking references and using them to go against the preponderance of sources, then? —C.Fred (talk) 11:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Masoud bukani won't be able to participate in this discussion for the next 31 hours. DMacks (talk) 14:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello again Masoud bukani. As I said on your talk page, I'm not interested in whether these entries should be spelt with an 'O' or a 'U'. I do not have the subject knowledge to weigh the academic sources. But again I remind you that you need to work in a cooperative manner. I strongly suggest you read WP:ASPERSIONS, and No personal attacks. Continuing you accusations against HistoryofIran, in the manner that you are doing, will only get you blocked from editing. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 12:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

It is important that the name is common. Which one is more common? If you do not recognize this, please invite users who specialize in English to this conversation. Masoud bukani (talk) 05:18, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Did I miss your comment about common name? On the 4th, you said you'd be making one, but I don't see one in the thread. —C.Fred (talk) 12:51, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Here it is now: Jstor search: "Aziz Khan Mokri" gets 19 hits, "Aziz Khan Mokri" gets 15. Google.books search: "Aziz Khan Mokri Army" gets 151 hits, "Aziz Khan Mukri Army" gets 150. Google scholar search: "Aziz Khan Mokri Qajar" gets 19, "Aziz Khan Mukri Qajar" gets 27. Its a pretty close one. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:40, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. And good point on it being close. —C.Fred (talk) 13:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:48, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Place of birth
Since you haven't opened a discussion yet, I have done it for you. This is what WP:RS says regarding his place of birth;


 * "He was born at Sardašt, southwest of Mahābād, in 1207/1792-93." - Iranica


 * عزیزخان مکری،درحدود سال 1793م/ ۱۲۰۷هـ.ق در سردشت متولد شد، وی - > "Aziz Khan Makri was born in Sardasht around the year 1793 AD/1207 AH" - Sardar Azizkhan’s Role in Internal and Foreign Policy of Qajar (the years 1253-1258 / 1838-1871))

Yet you keep insisting that we use a outdated source (see WP:AGE MATTERS) from 1926, written by Basil Nikitin, who seems to be have been a minor historian. Why should we use him instead of the two sources up above, especially Encyclopædia Iranica? HistoryofIran (talk) 00:08, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * He was born in Nastan. Nestan village is between Sardasht and Bukan! Basil Nikten has mentioned the return of Aziz Khan to Bukan (after the exiled)! Please read the source.188.212.246.110 (talk) 06:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not how a discussion works. Can you please address my comment? --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:22, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Aziz Khan Mukri and Bukan
This person lived in Bukan (a city in West Azarbaijan province of Iran), the graves of his sons and daughters are in Bukan, and now there is a tomb for his family in the same city. Sardar Castle is one of the important works left by Aziz Khan Mukri in Bukan. There are many documents that show that Aziz Khan Mukri and his children lived in this city. Check out Qatar Library, Islamic Library, Persian and Russian sources.

Nestan village (located near Bukan city) is between Bukan and Sardasht! Aziz Khan's eldest son's name was Ali Khan, there is a large neighborhood in Bukan called Ali Abad (in honor of Aziz Khan's son)!

Saif al-Din son of Aziz Khan expanded his father's castle in Bukan, built the village of Sardar Abad near Bukan. He built a large water fountain near the castle. (Historian, Jacques Demorgan)

The history of this city is with the Aziz Khan family. 188.212.246.110 (talk) 06:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

1857
'''In August or September 1857, he was exiled to Sardasht. Nevertheless.'''

This text is wrong! According to local historical sources and also the statements of Basil Nikten (The Kurd: 1925 - p276 arabic version), who was a member of the Russian Consul in Savojbolagh Mukri, Aziz Khan Mukri had returned to his castle (home) in Bukan during his exile! Not in Sardasht.

At that time, Sardasht was bigger than Bukan. For this reason, some sources preferred to mention the name of Sardasht province rather than a small village. 188.212.246.110 (talk) 06:22, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are you creating two sections? Just stay in the one I created, this is not practical. Fyi, repeating random stuff does not that make your case stronger. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran Unfortunately, you only argue with force. You have the least research about this Kurdish region. Why only in Iran, there is a football team called Sardar Aziz Khan only in the city of Bukan?? Do you know the connection of this city with the family of Aziz Khan Mukri? How many researches have you read? You obviously know nothing.188.212.243.249 (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Pretty rich coming from you. Also pretty embarassing that you can't write a single line without attacking me or ranting about random stuff. Attack me again and I will be the one that reports you next time. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran Yes, I have read your conversations. At the top of this page, I see that you argued with users about the Latin name of Aziz Khan Mukri :)! It is really impossible to talk to you. I advise you to read and research more, your information is very poor.178.131.29.174 (talk) 06:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * What does my past conversations have to do with anything? You still havnen't adressed the comment I wrote to you, yet I am the one impossible to talk with? I advise you read to read guidelines such as WP:RS and stop wasting my time. Also, I'm reporting you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)