Talk:BBC Two 1991–2001 idents

Cleanup
I added the cleanup tag to this article after the nomination of a number of similar articles due to WP:FAIR concerns. See Articles for deletion/ITV Idents and Presentation for more information --tgheretford (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair Use cleanup
Fair use images should be a minimal use, if any, and the presence of per-item fair use in lists such as this are clearly out of bounds with foundation goals and policy, particularly our Non-free content criteria. This article has been listed as needing fair use clean up for months, as noted above, and it's listing on the fair-use overuse list. Do not readd the images. - M  ask?  15:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:BBC Two Copper 1991-1999.jpg
The image File:BBC Two Copper 1991-1999.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --15:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I have proposed that this article be condensed and merged into the BBC Two section of History of BBC television idents. What do you think? Cloudbound (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I really hope not! I'm so glad that the 1991-2001 idents have their own article and it would be a shame for it to be merged. I respect your opinion, but the 1991-2001 idents were really famous, and i'm happy they have their own article. - even more so seeming i've just added to it.--77.99.231.37 (talk) 19:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article needs its own seperate page, and all those like it need a seperate page as there simply cant be enough information on one article. They should have their own articleRafmarham (talk) 18:39, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Splitting 1991-1997 and 1997-2001 era up
I am considering to split the 1991-1997 and 1997-2001 eras up because the article would be too big. I wish for not only idents but also bumpers, stings, etc, where having a seperate article would work better. Presentation sites have the eras in individual pages so why not Wikipedia's?--NGMan62 (talk) 15:03, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Because this is the same set, just spanning two eras. -- ILikeThemTwos (talk) 08:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They should be split up because there would be too much information here as I would also like to include like bumpers.--Capsoul (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Non-free images
This article utterly fails WP:NFCC, notably WP:NFCC and WP:NFCC. Could involved editors please decide which images are necessary to the article, and which are decoration. Otherwise the majority of images will be removed. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:00, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * This article uses more non-free images than any other article on Wikipedia. This usage level is absolutely extreme. Also, almost all the images are set to 100px; too small to be of any real use within an article that properly uses non-free content. Further, the article itself is seriously lacking in references. 7 of 11 are to youtube, which is discouraged by External links, and the other 4 are all to an online television museum at www.tv-ark.org.uk. Not the strongest of references by any measure. I'm having a hard time believing this article should even exist, much less contain more non-free images than any other article on Wikipedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not fair. Articles like this need images. Some do like "List of Presidents of the United States".--Capsoul (talk) 18:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. WP:NFLISTS applies whether it's "fair" or not. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Images for idents?
I feel that a screenshot for all of the idents, bumpers etc should be included into articles so that readers would know how they looked like. Since thumbnails are not allowed on on tables, perhaps we could make a gallery of them or something?--Capsoul (talk) 17:44, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the way Wikipedia works would mean that all those images, all non free by their very nature, would attract attention and they would be removed. I'm afraid we can onyl get away with an image so people know which presentational package we mean. Any others would be seen as unnescesairy. Rafmarham (talk) 10:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Dubious
I very much doubt the sentece "they have become one of the most popular television idents in history" can be verified or conclusively evidenced. No doubt the editor who wrote this article feels very strongly about these logos, as can be seen from the long, long tables about, well, some logos. but that sentence is going a bit too far even allowing for such obvious passion, no? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Serious article issues
In September of 2009, this article was tagged as needing additional citations for verification. At the time, it had two references, both of which pointed to tv-ark.org.uk. From that point to January 2011, the number of refs increased to 11. However, 7 of those 11 were to YouTube, and the remaining 4 were to tv-ark.org.uk. I noted this in a posting here on this talk page at the time. As of today, there are now 10 citations. 7 of them remain to YouTube, and 2 to tv-ark.org.uk. Per External links the use of YouTube as a citation source is problematic for a number of reasons, not least of which is copyright violation problems. All of the YouTube links appear to be copyright violations, and should be stripped immediately from this article. The 2 citations to tv-ark.org.ul are problematic as this is a fansite and per WP:FANSITE should not be used. The remaining citation of the 10 is to lambie-nairn.com. This is a primary source, and while usable isn't very strong. It's also dead from it's original source. Further, the citation supports a single sentence of the article.

In short, this article is 30 pages worth of printable body text and contains 1...just __1__ usable (albeit weak) citation. This issue has been extant for three years and the contributors of this article have done nothing to improve the situation.

In March of this year, this article was tagged as possibly not meeting Wikipedia's notability guideline. Five months later, the tag is still there with nothing being done to address the issue.

I'm posting here to give the contributors to this article another opportunity to improve the article. I'll wait a couple of months, but if nothing is done to improve this situation I will be placing the article for deletion. Thank you for your attention to this matter, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's difficult, but the problem lies in the fact that the BBC themselves don't publish information on this subject - they refer to TV Ark. There are few secondary articles on the topic as a whole and by the nature of the topic you don't get secondary sources of the idents - you just provide the video, something that can't be done here. Rafmarham (talk) 21:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Unsure whether any of these can be used or referenced?
 * BBC Logo Story
 * BBC Cult BBC2
 * Lambie Nairn
 * BBC2's distinctive style - BBC News. Rafmarham (talk) 21:30, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Three of four of those links are primary sources, being from the BBC itself. The last is I believe someone contracted to BBC. These aren't very good I'm afraid. The reality is if there aren't reliable secondary sources on the subject, it's hardly notable. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look at books about television and branding, may be just a lack of web material. Rafmarham (talk) 22:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I have found a research book by Catherine Johnson of the University of Nottingham about the subject and will be adding the references soon. On an interesting note, she references TVARK and sees it as a reliable source - I still see it as a good source for the material concerned (not the text but the videos). Rafmarham (talk) 09:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Time for a clean up
I've taken the bold step of removing much some of the unreferenced content from this article - much of it appears to be original research, and the lack of references has probably allowed a certain amount of vandalism to remain undetected too. If reliable sources exist for any of the removed content, anyone can of course put it back as long as they provide references. —S MALL JIM   11:17, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Setting aside the question of notability, which someone else can take up if they feel it is appropriate, we need to decide which sources can be considered reliable enough to support statements made in the article. Obviously anything from the BBC itself and from Lambie-Nairn is good. I think there's enough evidence to treat tv-ark.org.uk as reliable too (see its about us page). I'm not so sure about http://www.theident.gallery/. It seems to be a one-man effort, like tv-ark, but doesn't appear to have gained the same degree of recognition. The usual concerns apply about YouTube content and unless it's posted from a confirmed account, one has to assume good faith regarding the accuracy of the content. What other sources are there?

To reiterate our policy on original research: if content hasn't been published by a reliable source, we can't include it in our articles. Since the idents themselves have been published (per WP:SOURCE), it's OK to describe them in terms that anyone would agree to, in the same way as describing the plot of a fictional work (see WP:WAF and WP:PLOTSUM). However, other details such as the name of the ident, the dates it was broadcast, the feelings it is intended to evoke, etc. are not evident from the idents themselves, and so require a separate reliable source for inclusion. The descriptions in the tables abound in this sort of detail for which no sources are apparent: this unreferenced material should be removed. —S MALL JIM   15:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Weetabix advert inclusion?
Should we include on this article that some adverts for Weetabix actually referenced some BBC2 idents? Visokor (talk) 11:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2015
BBC Two the '1991-2001' idents

109.255.226.253 (talk) 23:26, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  23:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Has Network follow NI's suit yet?
Has BBC2 in England have followed the suit yet to show other idents (including Shadow), but I'm sure that the people in England were real pres fans as well. Are you going to tweet BBC Two and they will planned to follow the suit. I hope Network will be the leader of all the idents than NI, Tell me when its done :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.215.253.26 (talk) 07:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Needs to be updated to include more modern idents
The idents are continuing to be very popular viewing on BBC2 TV and need to be updated so the article should be moved to 1991-2015. QuentinUK (talk) 22:27, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that BBC Two will getting a new look, despite remaining the '1991-2001' idents, but the box will remove from the text (just like NI). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.71.149.244 (talk) 12:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2015
BBC Two 1991-2001 and 2014-present New Idents

5.157.103.227 (talk) 18:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ". Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 18:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a change.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2015
There will be new idents that I can make as soon as I've confirmed

5.71.128.120 (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2015
BBC Two The 1991 2's Brand New Idents 2015 2016

89.101.224.214 (talk) 10:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Bazj (talk) 10:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2015

 * BBC Two page on idents
 * Idents wall poster (750KB)
 * idents.tv the new BBC Two idents
 * BBC Two 1997-2001 idents at TV Ark
 * Ident Gallery Special Pres 2013
 * BBC Two 1991-1997 idents at TV Ark

79.16.179.159 (talk) 11:22, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Added the new external link. Altamel (talk) 01:05, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2015

 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  True CRaysball  | #RaysUp 19:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

During the run of the idents, there were also quick, usually humorous short animations shown before the trailers known as 'Stings'. Examples included a 2-shaped pancake landing in a frying pan, a '2' performing stunts on a bicycle, or a set of spinning plates in the form of the '2'. These were sometimes themed to suit a particular event, such as sport coverage; for instance, a set of snooker balls racked in the '2' shape. Animations were also created to match the theme of a year's Christmas symbol. During the 1995 Christmas period, for example, a set of short animations featuring Wallace and Gromit were used, along with a similarly themed ident.

These 'sting' animations were usually only a few seconds long and, particularly from 22 March 1993 onwards, the '2' would become a character as well as merely a symbol, an idea that was carried on for the BBC Two yellow idents from 2001.

Below is a complete list in short summary of BBC Two Stings.

Since 19 August 2014, BBC Two Northern Ireland has been airing a selection of stings from the set. Three days after, Network followed suit. Bizarrely, only ones related to idents have been shown (Sub, Jaws and Ducks, Woodpecker, Swan Change Mind and Kebab). Swan Change Mind has become the opening sting on all BBC Two programmes available on BBC iPlayer since 13 November 2014. However, as of 13 January 2015, stings from the 1990s that are not related to idents are starting to make a comeback and are airing between programmes as part of the 2015 rebrand, which include Newton's Cradle, Bowling Alley, Shoal, Slinky, Spider's Web, Spinning Plates, Whirlwind, Magnet, Whacky, Boombox, Robot, Seeing Stars (currently in Northern Ireland only), Pounce, Milk, Stay-Puft, Cuckoo Clock, Harley's Bike, Ballet and Pump (currently across the Network).

79.16.179.159 (talk) 09:23, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2015

 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  True CRaysball  | #RaysUp 19:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

79.16.179.159 (talk) 09:24, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2015
BBC Two the 1991's 2 brand New Idents in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018

109.255.226.253 (talk) 13:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2015
BBC Two the 1991's 2 brand New Idents in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019

109.255.226.253 (talk) 08:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC) It also appears to be a future prediction, which we do not cover as per WP:CRYSTAL. More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 09:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as your requested is unclear, not a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2015
New ident for India Season earlier tonight: http://theident.gallery/player.php?id=BBC2-2015-ID-INDIASEASON-1

FanofPresIdents (talk) 23:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done. --  EpicPrime  (leave a message | edits) 08:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2015

 * Car || 1 November 1993 – 19 November 2001; 18 July 2014 – present || One of a new series of idents introduced in 1993. It featured a viridian '2' with an aerial moving about on wheels in a yellow studio, in the same manner as a remote-controlled car. The car noise varies in pitch as it whizzes around at varying speeds. It is possible that this inspired the 2001-2007 series of idents. Two variations were made: one with the car coming from the left hand side (the more common version) and one coming from the right hand side. The former variation made a 2014 comeback on BBC Two Northern Ireland in April 2014 for the Afternoon Classics strand; and two months later shown in Wales for the 90s Night. The same variation has been brought back in July 2014 for the channel's 50th anniversary, and was one of a few to air in its 50th Anniversary form in Northern Ireland before showing in Network and Wales (alongside Woodpecker, Duck, Zapper, Dog and the currently Northern Ireland-only idents), being the second (after Dog) to show on Network afterwards two days later.
 * Car || 1 November 1993 – 19 November 2001; 18 July 2014 – present || One of a new series of idents introduced in 1993. It featured a viridian '2' with an aerial moving about on wheels in a yellow studio, in the same manner as a remote-controlled car. The car noise varies in pitch as it whizzes around at varying speeds. It is possible that this inspired the 2001-2007 series of idents. Two variations were made: one with the car coming from the left hand side (the more common version) and one coming from the right hand side. The former variation made a 2014 comeback on BBC Two Northern Ireland in April 2014 for the Afternoon Classics strand; and two months later shown in Wales for the 90s Night. The same variation has been brought back in July 2014 for the channel's 50th anniversary, and was one of a few to air in its 50th Anniversary form in Northern Ireland before showing in Network and Wales (alongside Woodpecker, Duck, Zapper, Dog and the currently Northern Ireland-only idents), being the second (after Dog) to show on Network afterwards two days later.

Edited in October 1997.It is used as the opening ident on all BBC Two programmes on the iPlayer.

79.25.186.7 (talk) 12:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2015
BBC Two the 1991's 2 idents 2015 2016 2017 2018

109.255.226.253 (talk) 22:02, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.
 * You have made this same request multiple times. Repeating it will not get the changes you want unless you actually tell us what you want to change.  In addition please read WP:CRYSTAL.  We don't normally make posts regarding future events as we cannot know for certain if they will occur or not. --Stabila711 (talk) 22:13, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2015
During the run of the idents, there were also quick, usually humorous short animations shown before the trailers known as 'Stings'. Examples included a 2-shaped pancake landing in a frying pan, a '2' performing stunts on a bicycle, or a set of spinning plates in the form of the '2'. These were sometimes themed to suit a particular event, such as sport coverage; for instance, a set of snooker balls racked in the '2' shape. Animations were also created to match the theme of a year's Christmas symbol. During the 1995 Christmas period, for example, a set of short animations featuring Wallace and Gromit were used, along with a similarly themed ident.

These 'sting' animations were usually only a few seconds long and, particularly from 8 March 1993, the '2' would become a character as well as merely a symbol, an idea that was carried on for the BBC Two yellow idents from 2001.

Below is a complete list in short summary of BBC Two Stings.

Since 19 August 2014, BBC Two Northern Ireland has been airing a selection of stings from the set. Three days after, Network followed suit. Bizarrely, only ones related to idents have been shown (Sub, Jaws and Ducks, Woodpecker, Swan Change Mind and Kebab). Swan Change Mind has become the opening sting on all BBC Two programmes available on BBC iPlayer since 13 November 2014. However, as of 1 January 2015, stings from the 1990s that are not related to idents are starting to make a comeback and are airing between programmes as part of the 2015 rebrand, which include Newton's Cradle, Bowling Alley, Shoal, Milk, Slinky, Spider's Web, Spinning Plates, Whirlwind, Stay-Puft, Magnet, Whacky, Boombox, Robot, Seeing Stars (currently Northern Ireland only), Pounce, Cuckoo Clock, Harley Bike, Ballet, and Pump.

79.50.134.20 (talk) 17:57, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am  k6ka  Talk to me!   See what I have done  22:49, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Article title
It's becoming clear to me that the title of this article is becoming more and more irrelevant and inaccurate. It was fine before they brought back the idents last year and even in the first few months of their re-usage as it wasn't clear whether the idents were going to become permanent or not after the 50th anniversary. But now they are permanent (at least as far as the BBC has announced), should we perhaps think about changing the article title? Maybe to something like "BBC Two '2' idents". It's far from ideal, I know, as the past three packages have had stylised 2s in some form or another but it's better than the inaccurate one we have at the moment. Another alternative is changing it too "BBC Two '1991-2001, 2014-present' idents" but that's a bit too cumbersome for a title. Any other thoughts? Aw16 (talk) 14:22, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "BBC Two '2' idents" is far too vague an article title, especially when you consider that all but one of BBC Two's ident packages showcase the number '2' so I would argue that a title like that would be worse than the current title. And how exactly is the title inaccurate?  The idents' original run lasted from 1991 until 2001 and unlike the "Personality" and "Window on the World" ident packages, the ident set, as a whole, lack an official name.  I agree, having "BBC Two '1991-2001, 2014-present' idents" as a title would be cumbersome but it could also be interpreted as infringing WP:IINFO.


 * The current title is fine as it is. --  EpicPrime  (leave a message | edits) 19:45, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Suggestions about BBC2's Xmas idents to return next week
So BBC One will be launching it's Christmas pres on Tuesday but i wonder if BBC2 going to bring us a new xmas pres and some old friends (e.g. Christmas 1991) this year. Any thoughts? StarWarsAndTheUserStrikesBack (talk) 18:02, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No evidence, as of yet, suggests that this is going to happen. Not only that but Wikipedia talk pages are not suitable places for ident predictions. --  EpicPrime  (leave a message | edits) 18:23, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2015
BBC Two Brand New Idents 2016

92.251.135.211 (talk) 18:39, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. /wia 🎄 /tlk  19:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

BBC Two China Season and Robot Wars ident 2016

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2016
BBC Two China Season and Robot Wars ident 2016

178.167.254.143 (talk) 18:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --allthefoxes (Talk) 19:10, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2016
BBC Two New Ident 2016

89.101.224.214 (talk) 11:26, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Aw16 (talk) 18:22, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Air Dates
Why did you remove the air dates? There was NOTHING wrong with them! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IMacG4pedia (talk • contribs) 21:19, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Because they were either completely unsourced or supported only by unreliable user-generated sources like TV Forum – neither of which is acceptable.  Super Mario  Man – Talk 01:48, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2017
176.240.100.40 (talk) 04:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER   ★  04:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Ident List
Why was the ident list removed? I used that list to remember the proper names of idents & I'm rather unhappy at their removal. Fair enough about the airing dates being unreliable, but removing the whole list seems unwarrented.

Logan Sheppard (talk) 09:02, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

It’s been removed as a it’s over  Descriptive But you’re right. There was no need for that. 82.18.105.207 (talk) 13:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Why was the ident list removed?
The other pages with BBC Two idents have an ident list so why did the ident list here got removed?

"Warp"
Has anyone here eaver heard of the "Warp" ident, which mind you was rejected? Visokor (talk) Visokor (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * No. — the Main Logan  (t•c) 02:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)