Talk:BDORT/Archive 6

Proposal to allow edits during mediation
Should edit be allowed during the mediation process? The mediation process was started on or before August 17th (based on the edit history for /Mediation on this page) and the edit history since then shows various efforts to create a stable version of the article until mediation was resolved.

The argument for not allowing this is the difficulty it creates in resolving an ongoing dispute related to the article and this argument has some weight--other mediators have walked away from mediating this article, and making more work for the mediator may increase the difficulty in resolving an already difficult mediation.

My argument, which is also discussed below, is that we should not effectively freeze edits to an article due to a content dispute between two editors. Pages should only be frozen during mediation (if at all) for a limited period using a protected tag and a deadline set which is tied to specific goals that the disputing editors must achieve or see their case closed, to not waste the time of editors who want to fix the article and aren't aware of the 'informal freeze' on edits (since there is no policy stating that they cannot edit). Changes coinciding with mediation can be integrated into the article if they are still relevant to the current version or dropped if consensus has build against them through the normal editing process.

Allowing edits should have the effect of getting more outside input into the article since most editors don't want to wade through a long mediation history to make contributions and this may also resolve some or all of the disputes that are being mediated. Antonrojo 14:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Allow edits. Mediation is one of several dispute resolution processes and peer review should get its chance. Antonrojo 14:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Antonrojo, I have no doubt that you mean well and you want this article, and WP in general, to become as well sourced, informative and objective as they can be. The situation here is that there is a fairly intense conflict, that has been going on since the article was created. The conflict resulted in prologed edit warring that has driven at least two editors to leave WP. The solution that was agreed upon is to stop the edit warring and try mediation. The concept of mediation was that instead of making multiple conflicting edits and reversions per day or even per hour, we would try to agree in the Talk  page (or subpage) on a mutually acceptable version, and only then include the change in the article. This was and is the premise for mediation. If we start editing the article directly again, it will again become a free-for-all, a major time and energy drain for all involved, and a sore spot for WP as a whole. I think the bottom line is simple: either we mediate and agree on changes in a civil discussion on the Talk page before they are entered in the article, or we resort to the old free-for-all. I thought that decision was already made, but obviously we can revisit it at any time. Crum375 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by 'quiet mediation'. If edit aren't allowed on the article at all it should be protected and if only edits of a specific type are allowed, this should be indicated by adding the mediation template to Talk, as well as in the article if an appropriate template exists since editors don't always read Talk when editing, to avoid wasting editors time. Note that this template states only that substantial edits should be avoided until editors have read the applicable talk page discussions, in other words that editors don't need to get involved in the mediation process to make changes. Antonrojo 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I am no expert on templates, if there is something that would be appropriate, then I would have no objection to it. I don't see however, how any editor could just start editing a contentious article that is undergoing mediation without instantly provoking mayhem. Yes, if you change a typo I can see it being 'safe', but I doubt there are many typos left. Anything else would step on some delicate issue that is under mediation and immediately disrupt the mediation process. I think the mediation is not between some specific parties with specific view points - it is intended for any or all editors interested in this article. If you would like to help, by all means join the mediation and feel free to voice your opinion on any issue (or raise new issues). But if someone just makes arbitrary changes to the article at this time, it will be disruptive and will nullify the effect of the mediation process, IMO. Crum375 15:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits during mediation

 * ''See: /Mediation

I think it only stands to reason to refrain from editing the article during mediation. Otherwise it would be a major waste of time to spend days and weeks debating issues that are no longer in the current article. In addition, if anyone starts editing, the parties to the mediation will edit also, while mediation is ongoing, which will create a major disruption. bottom line: please leave the article as it is for now, until mediation is completed. Thanks, Crum375 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * While I agree that it's thoughtful not to edit an article that's being mediated, an admin did see fit to unprotect the article, which means that editing it is sanctioned. I don't think it makes sense to start edit warring about whether editing during mediation is okay. If the changes made conflict with the outcomes of mediation, they can be, in whole or in part, reverted -- that's not a problem. - Che Nuevara  01:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree. I think that during mediation we should have a stationary target. Otherwise the mediation process becomes a meaningless exercise. In addition, the article was protected because of edit conflicts that occurred due to the issues that required mediation. Those issues are not resolved. If we were to start editing the article, it would end up in an edit conflict within a day or 2. I think it makes no sense to invite this unnecessary disruption at this time. Crum375 01:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * My two cents is that I have seen outside edits of a contentious article result in a version that passed consensus (Kaiser Permanente, maybe six months ago). Often long edit debates get caught up in a wealth of details and the interested parties have a difficult time moving forward without debating even small changes in detail. Shifting targets are the nature of the wiki philosophy, even if a more traditional editing approach, such as 'versioning' would be easier to manage.
 * So for what it's worth, I'll add an edit comment to the effect of 'first edits since mediation was begin, roll back to this point if edits made disagree with the consensus'. If this sets off another edit war, or violates policy, or a consensus builds against doing so, I think a rollback to that point would be called for as well. Antonrojo 04:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There are several reasons why I disagree with your approach:
 * Other editors may soon join you, and spend a lot of effort on a version that is 'precarious' in that we are mediating an older one
 * The mediation itself might get affected by the 'current' version, which will be a moving target as people are modifying it on a daily or hourly basis
 * The parties to the mediation, not wanting to be outdone, will start editing the 'current' version themselves, soon culminating in an edit war
 * Other contributors, who unlike you may not be aware of the situation with the potential rollback hanging over the article, will invest effort in good faith and edit, with their work potentially disappearing when we revert to the pre-mediation version
 * I can probably think up of some more reasons, but for me this is enough to be convinced that a changing version during a mediation in which the version is being debated is unproductive and disruptive. OTOH, I can see doing something else, that we have done before: you can start a test version, that will be in a temporary subpage of the pre-mediation version. In that version you can make all your proposed edits. As long as there is nothing outrageous in it (WP liability extends to subpages too) I personally see no problem with it. Crum375 13:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Antonrojo, I have restored the mediation version and moved your version to Talk:Yoshiaki Omura/Test. Please feel free to present your proposed changes in that version, while keeping this one stable for mediation purposes. I hope this is acceptable to you. Thanks, Crum375 14:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And Antonrojo, as Che noted elsewhere, please feel free also to join in the mediation discussion. As background, be advised that I personally joined this article while trying to informally mediate it, and got stuck here ever since. Crum375 14:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

While I understand your objection, Crum, that simply isn't how Wikipedia works. We don't own this article just because we're discussing it extensively, and nothing we can do will supercede the wiki process. Editing an article which is under mediation is not inherently bad faith. "Moving targets" are the way of the wiki. If the mediated parties start edit warring "not wanting to be outdone", then that's bad faith action on their part and action can be taken accordingly. Any post-mediation version can easily incorporate appropriate material written during mediation -- that's not a problem at all. I highly recommend you not start telling other editors not to edit an article -- it is a slippery slope that you would be wise to avoid. - Che Nuevara  17:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that no one owns an article, individually or collectively - that is not an issue here. The issue is one of practicality and temporary stability. The issues I raised all had to do with practicality and stability - how do we mediate a moving target, how do we prevent an edit war during mediation. I think the current solution is logical - Antonrojo (and possibly other neutral parties, not involved in the mediation or with BDORT/Omura) can continue to edit the test version while we focus on the stationary target version during mediation. I am open to other ideas to prevent conflict and to preserve stability during the mediation process. Crum375 18:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that simply isn't how it is. The mediation does not ask for article "stability", but only for cooperation among the mediated. It is an informal, unofficial process. You can recommend, if you like, that people editing the article join the discussion, but asking people not to edit the article is unreasonable. We mediate a "moving target" by addressing the issues in the conflict -- mediation is about conflict, not about content, and once conflict is over those involved can back to normal editing. We avoid edit warring by not edit warring, period. It's simple, really. - Che Nuevara  20:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Che, I understand the theory very well, and I appreciate all your efforts thus far. I would be extremely happy if we can continue to mediate the article in a civil and orderly fashion. Let's just keep going and see where we get. Do you have a suggestion of how to proceed from here? I guess we are still waiting for Richard to chime in on the Mediation page? Crum375 20:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well obviously mediating one person is rather easy, so there isn't a lot we can do until we hear from Richard about this source. But I'll discuss that on the med page. - Che Nuevara  20:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked a few moderators to post feedback on this page since there are good arguments on both sides and because there doesn't seem to be any specific policy that is relevant. Antonrojo 22:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been asked to comment on this, and it seems to me that edits shouldn't be made that relate to the conflict that has gone to mediation. If you end up with an edit war then by definition you're not mediating - and any edit war has to be laid at the door of the person who made the first disputed edit, not the person that reverted or altered it. (It may take two to tango but someone still has to lead.) So the rule has to be - if your edit is going to be controversial, don't make it in articlespace for now. That may mean that most of the editing on the article might stop, but it still leaves room for stylistic edits and for outside editors to come in (if they come in on the same issues that are being mediated, they can be invited into the mediation), so full protection isn't necessary. It's often a good idea to work on a version of the article outside articlespace, like Crum created at Talk:Yoshiaki Omura/Test - that way, you can show exactly how you think the article should look when making your points, while the fact that the article isn't being shown to readers dampens the urgency that people feel when they're edit warring (the "must revert before someone reads the article and thinks this idiot's ramblings are true" syndrome.
 * I don't believe there's an actual policy on this, and it doesn't seem to me an issue that needs one. There's a common sense issue which is that you can't mediate while edit warring - and if you find simple discussion insufficient, then use a 'sandbox' version of the page, while allowing business as usual to continue on the main article itself, until you've settled on a version that's acceptable to all. I might suggest paring down the sandbox to the paragraphs that are under dispute, otherwise you're more likely to get conflicts with outside/minor edits to the article.
 * As I was asked to comment on what seemed to be general principle, I haven't looked into the dispute here in any great detail. If anyone thinks my reasoning doesn't work with this particular article then I'd be happy to look into it in more closely. --Sam Blanning(talk) 23:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was also asked to comment and am in agreement with Sam Blanning.  To summarize, its okay to edit, but not to edit war.  However, there's already policies against that.  It is generally a bad idea and highly discouraged to edit in regards to the disputed text, since that could easily lead to the aforementioned edit war (See The Wrong Version for a somewhat related and slightly sarcastic essay on this.) Do be careful before implementing Sam's idea of a sandbox though.  While this can and does work, the merging afterwards is often messy, error prone, and may even require admin intervention (for merging histories, if required).  In my opinion, it's not worth the trouble.  I would just recommend waiting until the dispute is resolved before making disputed or controversial edits.  Good luck! -- ShinmaWa(talk) 02:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * While I understand what the two of you are saying, we're talking about someone who was not involved in the mediation. He came along and edited the article, and someone involved in the mediation saying that it wasn't right to edit an article that was being mediated.
 * If someone not involved in a mediation edits an article, it really ought to have no bearing whatsoever on that mediation. If they begin edit warring, that's another question altogether, but mediation is entirely informal and entirely voluntary. Antonrojo never agreed to mediation, he is not bound to or restricted by it. To say that he is would be illogical, and it would be an affront to everything that is the mediation process. It may be nice and thoughtful of him not to edit, but good faith edits are always welcome. He's not edit warring, he never was, and because he wasn't involved in the dispute, he's not likely to start.
 * I'm sorry, but the day we start telling people not to edit based on a process that they're not involved in (excepting, of course, when policy dictates it, because that's another matter entirely) is the day we become ArbCom. And the day MedCab becomes ArbCom is the day MedCab should be dissolved once and for all. - Che Nuevara  02:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we are all in agreement then as both of us said that, in our respective opinions, it's okay for anyone, including those in mediation, to edit the article. Neither one of us said people can't or even shouldn't edit the article.  We both, however, encouraged those in mediation to refrain of editting the specific text in dispute to avoid an edit war -- which, given your additional context on the basis of the inquiry, sounds like it's not even applicable to this discussion at all.  I do apologize, though, for not fully understanding the situation before commenting.  I hope this clarification helps unmuddy the waters a bit :)  -- ShinmaWa(talk) 03:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that those involved in mediation should refrain from making potentially controversial edits without the consensus of the mediation -- that goes right down to good-faith willingness to participate. I don't fault you (or anyone else) for being unclear on the circumstances of this mediation -- they are many and complicated, and it took me a while myself to figure out what was going on here. Your opinion is naturally welcome and appreciated, and I'm sorry if I came on a little strong in my response. Happy wiki'ing! - Che Nuevara  05:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My main concern with the 'no significant edits during mediation' approach is that mediation is an open-ended process without a specified time limit. From the few cases I'm familiar with, at least one of the parties involved is a POV warrior and the result of this policy is that editors with a more neutral view of the article are likely to move on to articles where their efforts are more appreciated rather than enduring barriers to editing put in their way by formal edit processes or stubborn editors who effectively freeze changes that don't agree with their POV. Asking outside editors to fork an alternate version of an article is one of these barriers. Antonrojo 03:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, Antonrojo.  As you are not a part of the mediation and I assume that the edits you wish to make have absolutely nothing to do with the dispute, I can see absolutely no reason at all why you can't make your edits.   Enjoy and happy editting!  -- ShinmaWa(talk) 21:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * May I ask on what you base that assumption? Crum375 22:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * --- Note: below is a copy of the exchange I had with Shinmawa on his Talk page ---Crum375 13:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ---
 * Shinmawa, may I ask why you assume that Antonrojo's edits "have nothing to do with the mediation"? Crum375 22:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I'm just going to bow out of this discussion for now. I really don't have the context I need to understand the issue, and I'm afraid I'm just making things worse.  -- ShinmaWa(talk) 22:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the situation is now such a mess, with the current version up flying back out of nowhere with hours of discussion effectively ignored, that I dont know how to proceed; if I edit the article as has been done by others just recently there will be an edit war in a few hours; refraining from editing - which means effectively saying that some people will edit while I will not - also does not make any (WP) sense. Anyone can suggest what to do? Che, re the affidavits, I am working on another source. But how can we proceed now?!

OK, I have, like others have done, reverted to a version that I consider reasonable as a starting point, after a number of changes have been made to it, including all the regular WP policies/guidelines etc and what has been discussed (and agreed) in mediation(s) so far.Richardmalter 13:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Richard, I am sure you realize that edit warring is not a reasonable way for us to spend our time and energy. You asked for and agreed to mediation, please let the process continue to its resolution. Thanks, Crum375 13:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I still fail to see how this is a hindrance to our mediation efforts. We can continue to discuss the issues in the article even if the article is edited. So, are we discussing, or not? Richard, if you're still working on that affidvait issue, why don't we move on to a new issue in mediation and come back to this one? - Che Nuevara  16:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I note that you insist even in the interim on a version that you like, despite that it contains many points that you have agreed are WP unacceptable in Mediation so far. Why should your predilection remain during mediation rather than anyone elses? There are many versions of this entry. It just so happened that the total edit block was put on version-arbitrarily after you reverted to this, your preferred version, a while ago. This does not make the version you like any better than any other version, and since you et al have agreed that it contains many WP unacceptables, it is in fact considerably worse in WP terms than the version I have just reverted. So I do not accept this version remain there if the article is open again for editing. I would, in the interim, agree to the version that was reached at the end of the last round of mediation mediated by Andy, would you agree to that? Che, yes I am working on another source for the affidavits, which I think will arrive shortly. But yes, please lets continue to discuss, thanks for your continued help, which I continue to appreciate very much. I suggest the Shinnick citation next, OK? If so, lets resume on the Mediation page. Thanks.Richardmalter 13:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Richard, the version that was there during start of mediation is the one that should stay, unless we all agree to a change. Otherwise, IMO (and apprarenly I am not alone in that opinion) the mediation process will become disrupted. Let's focus on the mediation and try to move forward. Crum375 13:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Crum, unless you intend to dismiss mediation, which I ask that you declare now in good faith, as you have previously reverted mediated agreements that you were fully participant in, the only version that I agree that remains up in the interim, in this regard, is the one that we had reached at the end of the mediation effort by Andy as mediator, that you were voluntarily fully participant in and that you signed that you would respect. You state things like "should stay", but this lacks validity in the light of mediation that you were party to. Either we respect mediation or we have an edit war. Do you or do you not respect the mediated decisions that you were fully party to or do you not? I do not ask rhetorically. I guess if you answer anything other than a binary "yes", then the best thing to do is freeze the entry again; and I will hope that the freeze-dice will land on this version not the one you like. Richardmalter 05:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that trying to agree on a version to work from would rather undo the need for any mediation in the first place, so I won't say "hey guys let's agree on a version and go from there". And I won't come out in favor of a particular version, because doing so would undeniably counter my impartiality as a mediator. I will say this: opinion on a topic = bias. So if anyone says that they don't have a bias on a subject which they know something about, they're just being unreasonable. Bias does not mean you can't edit an article neutrally, but it does mean you can't edit objectively. If you'd like me to come out and lay my biases on the table, I'd be happy to do so, but I think that one person recognizing his/her own biases is enough. I think that, if we're going to get anything done, we need to get back to discussing the real issues, not which version is up when. There is nothing to be gained through another edit war, although if you insist on edit warring again, there's nothing I can do to stop you. It's your choice. Do we discuss the issues that are laid out on the /Mediation page, or not? You need not answer that question -- if you want to discuss, let's just go back there and discuss, eh? - Che Nuevara  07:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we are in agreement that edit warring is not conducive for mediation. I think that the version we had at the start of mediation, before someone needlessly (IMO) unprotected the article, is the one that should stay up while we continue. Otherwise, the constant reversions will only be a distraction. As I mentioned several times, I don't think the current version is perfect. OTOH, tweaking it at this time, before we get the important issues settled, would be disruptive to the mediation process, IMO. Crum375 13:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe you misunderstand the purpose of page protection. There is absolutely no reason for a page to be protected for the duration of mediation, which would in fact be contrary to WP policy. Page protection during mediation serves only the purpose of stopping an on-going edit war and allowing those involved a little time to cool down; after that, the page is supposed to be unprotected. - Che Nuevara  20:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's always possible I misunderstood it. It was done by Cowman109 to try to stabilize the article and calm the atmosphere while he was trying to mediate. Then he abruptly left us (like his predecessors), leaving the article protected. Let's just get on with mediation. Crum375 21:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's. Richard is working on the other source, so which should we discuss next? - Che Nuevara  22:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Whatever you two decide on, I guess. Crum375 22:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, just take the fact please, that for the reasons I give above, I dont agree that the version that you like remains all the time we have mediation. Many of these reasons you have explicitly agreed to in Mediation, so I did expect you would go along with. I hope it will be locked for editing - in a version other than the one Crum predilects. We should be clear, that the version Crum likes has no agreed (WP) basis to it - it is merely one that Crum likes, any suggestion of (WP) validity to it should be understood as merely POV. Re what to discuss next, please see the Shinnick citation on the mediation page. Thanks.Richardmalter 23:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have restored the version protected by Cowman109. I understand Richard doesn't like it, and I have some issues with it also. But this is the one that was protected so let's leave it and get on with mediation. Crum375 23:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, this is getting old. One of you step up and put an end to this by grinning and bearing the version that you don't like. I think that would demonstrate an awful lot of good faith. - Che Nuevara  04:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I think you know about the wrong version; it is incorrect to claim or imply even indirectly that because it was this version that was up when the page was locked that it is somehow sanctioned. Other than your like, there is no WP preference (and many against) this version. Che, sorry, I will revert now. I hope this demonstrates the need for mediation, and why we need you!Richardmalter 07:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, will you or will you not agree to the version that was reached at the end of the last round of mediation by Andy? as I have proposed. Bear in mind that your agreement to changes that led to it are fully documented, and I would take it personally as a show or trust and commitment to the mediation process. ?Richardmalter 07:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Richard, the version that our last mediator Cowman109 protected is the last stable version before the recent edit war erupted. You did complain to him about it at the time, and I myself was not totally happy with it, but it was the one he picked and froze, and this is the one that was there when Che, our present mediator, arrived. Going back to any other version would require us to argue about numerous issues - I doubt that we can reach quick consensus. If we are to argue, let's focus our energy on the mediation process. Crum375 12:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, as you know, that is not the whole story at all. Your words like 'stable version' sound possibly impressive, but are in fact meaningless due to the agreements you made and broke, and the arbitrary version that you reverted to at a point in time when you decided to. I will revert it back once you are asleep again.Richardmalter 12:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Richard, I did not break any agreement. If your point is that during the prolonged mediation process I agreed in principle to certain points, you are correct. But agreeing to specific points does not mean I agree to or endorse any specific version, and in fact I have yet to see a version I totally agree with. One reason there is no such version is that I myself have mostly refrained from directly editing this article, preferring instead to accept a 'best version' at any given time. Anyway, let's try to see if we can in fact get to any more agreements in principle by mediation. Crum375 12:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum: To say that the version Cowman protected is "the one he picked" is misleading -- an admin is in fact expected not to "chose" a version but rather to protect whatever version (barring blatant vandalism) is up when he decides to protect the page. That's what Cowman did. The truth is there was no "stable" version and that one just got picked out of a hat. Richard: The fact that there is now an ongoing edit war over which version should be mediated shows to me not only a desperate need for mediation, but also a complete unwillingness to, in good faith, more forward with the mediation process. Seriously, guys, are we going to work on this article or not? Edit warring is a waste of everyone's time. - Che Nuevara  17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"Simplification"
Right now this article is very much too long and complicated and can stand much improvement. Whiffle will help! Whiffle 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC) It will be a much better article then, clearer and simpler and easier to understand and everyone should be happy with it. Please help, too.! Whiffle 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't make it clearer, because it does not accurately describe the procedure. "Dumbing down" of an article necessarily makes it less accurate. Although this version isn't perfect, taking out information and replacing it with opinion and inaccurate "simplification" makes articles inaccurate and thereby not suitable to WP. - Che Nuevara  03:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

So you disagree with my editorial judgement. Then work to make it better. There's no reason to think your idea is any better than anyone elses. I'm not dumbing anything down and to say that is insulting. Don't insult me because you disagree with me. Whiffle 04:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry if you take the term "dumbing down" as offensive, but it's not meant that way and it's not what it means. No disrespect intended, so let me explain: "Dumbing down" means "making things simpler at the expense of accuracy". You have indeed clearly done that. For instance, how are


 * The form of the test is the evaluation of opposing muscle strength consisting of the diagnostician's employing thumb and forefinger of each hand, formed in the shape of an O, to attempt to force apart an O shape formed by thumb and forefinger of the person being evaluated, as that person holds a slide of organ tissue, a sample of medication, potential allergen, etc, in their free hand, or is otherwise 'probed' at an appropriate acupuncture point by the use of a metal rod or laser pointer. The diagnostician then uses his or her perception of the strength required to force apart the patient's 'O-Ring' of thumb and forefinger to assess the matter being evaluated


 * and


 * n the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test the doctor pulls people's fingers apart to see how strong they are before and after he is testing something. If they are stronger after it means the thing he was testing was good for them. If they are weaker it was bad for them. This is a very simple test. It doesn't take any equipment except the Doctor pulling the fingers apart and the patient, and it is very quick and easy and effective


 * equivalent? The answer is that they naturally are not. - Che Nuevara  04:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to insult someone by saying they're dumbing it down then stand up and stand behind your words. My edits speak for themselves. If you can improve it, improve it, stop insulting me then claiming you're not. That's the worst insult of all. Whiffle 04:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nor is it my job to justify myself to please you. That isn't a discussion, and I'm not your student. Are we clear on this? Whiffle 04:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know where that came from. I wouldn't even dream of thinking of desiring to say that you're my student, nor would I fancy that it's your job to please me. I said you have to edit according to WP policy and guidelines, that's all. - Che Nuevara  04:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, gee, if someone said to you you had "dumbed down" the article in simplifying it I suppose you'd see that as a compliment, right? Have the courage to say what you mean, not insult someone then take it back. Whiffle 04:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I explained what I meant by that term, which is the common usage as far as I'm aware, and I apologized for offending you even though I didn't mean to. I suppose that "dumbing down" should be considered no more or less offensive that "Keep It Simple, Stupid", don't you? - Che Nuevara  04:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL just read your helpful message on my page. You have an inclination to casual insult, haven't you? Is this your notion of WP:Civil. Curious interpretation of the concept. Perhaps I'm too simple-minded to follow so subtle an intellect. Whiffle 04:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

KISS is a mantra in many design, engineering, and other circles. It isn't regarded as an insult save by those inclined to excessive complexity, so far as I'm aware. It's an ancient attention-getter. Whiffle 04:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reversion of cite ref corrections
Whiffle, your edits are not helping anything, and you've completely undone all the work done on making all the references fit into the correct citation method. I was only trying to make the references look right, and forgot to address the undoing of your edits (which only made the article more POV) I apologize for forgetting to address that, but your edits are only making the article worse. You need to discuss the drastic changes you're making before doing them, especially on a controversial article like this one. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  04:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I messed up some of the refs. The article is too long, too convuluted, and too incomprehensible, however much your efforts over time has convinced you otherwise. You need fresh eyes whether you know it or not. If you're uncomfortable with that, then you're uncomfortable with that. I have no reason to trust your judgement over my own. Is that hard to follow or simply hard to accept? Whiffle 04:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? I've made perhaps 3-4 edits to this article, and they've all been minor outside of the references fixing (and you messed up all of the ref corrections, not just some of them). Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make comments such as this. Based on that, your own judgement comes into question. On top of that, you need to adjust your attitude if you're going to be working here on Wikipedia. Acting in a condescending manner toward others' opinions goes against the civility policy, and refusing to discuss anything before making sweeping changes to a controversial article goes against the etiquette policy. You need to be able to work well with others if you're going to be doing things here. If you can't abide by these policies, you'll likely cause more and more problems and eventually run into problems with the administrators or others. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjo e  05:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Joe, but it isn't all about you. It's about the Wikipedia Entry. It's a mess. Quick, let's all look up what different dictionaries say "mess" means, then discuss it for a few weeks before we have a Mediator assist us in the, uh, uhm...MESS !!! Whiffle 14:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Let's cut through the clutter and cut to the chase here, okay? Is this an entry or an excuse for a virtual circle jerk of people who are Look, I Are A Editor !!! wannabees? Fish, cut bait, or hang, bated, thrashing your wings pointlessly about. I'm not your mommy, and I don't want to spank you. I'm here to be right, not to be kind. Got the concept? Good !!! Whiffle 14:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Make Haste Slowly ?
Opinions differ, gentlemen and ladies. Try and keep up.

Night. Night. Whiffle 04:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Protected
The article is now protected. Please work out your differences here and in mediation. -Will Beback 18:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed the protection. Please edit with consideration for all viewpoints. -Will Beback 07:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have applied everything so far discussed on mediation page.

1) all extensive very obvious POV and OR deleted. 2) disclaimer statments (which would be a precedent for WP as discussed by many Admins) deleted. 3) correct description inserted. 4) 'en passant' citations agreed in mediation deleted. 5) obvious attempts at labelling in See Also section deleted 6) selevtive quoting from NZ Tribunial addressed, key quote of tribunial differentiating earlier on re BDORT and Gorringe included.

If any one wants to improve, I ask them to do so with regard to previous decisions made that has included them, and past and previous comments/discussions on the Mediation pages. I suggest, if it is contentious, dont add it.Richardmalter 03:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Richard, nothing has been agreed to in the mediation process. Please refrain from editing the article while the mediation process is underway. Thanks, Crum375 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Crum, you must have a problem reading your own words. What was agreed about the refs to quakery etc that you participated in in the last round of mediation have a look at the archives, you will see discussion "closed and action taken as agreed" - you know this.Richardmalter 03:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Richard, as you know, nothing whatsoever has been decided. If you can see me misreading my own words somewhere, please provide a link to my words, so we can discuss them. Thanks, Crum375 03:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed and action taken as agreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1 ""

I guess it must be a memory problem, is the only solutionm in good faith i can attribute to you.Richardmalter 03:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes it must be a memory as well as a reading problem on my part. I can't for the life of me see or otherwise recall where I agreed to all the changes you just made in the article, including removing the NZ reference from the the lead, etc. Crum375 03:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No, but you CAN see some of the changes that you agreed to, and that is the point you try to evade: you disregard all of them which is very disrespectful to me, other contributors/mediators/WP.Richardmalter 04:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Just above you declared nothing has been agreed to in the mediation process. Now you are corrected.Richardmalter 04:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The only changes I agreed to, were minor technicalities and included in other changes that you ignore. For example, regarding the Quackery reference, I agreed the specific linked page was wrong, but another link in the same site made the same point about quackery even stronger. You just removed the reference altogether instead of just fixing it. Hence you cannot just state that I 'agreed' to even that specific change. Can you point me to any of your changes that I actually agreed to? Crum375 04:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You agreed to the minor technicality that the 'Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant' usage was WP not OK. Usage of a citation, in itself and what for, are not minor. You may consult the wider WP community if you disagree.

'''You agreed to changes. Be respectful and keep to them please.''' Richardmalter 04:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The changes that I agreed to, were only agreed to by me, to the best of my knowledge (like the better Quackery reference mentioned above), not by the others. Hence, I contend that at this point no changes have been 'agreed to' in the mediation. 'Agreement' by definition is by everyone. Crum375 04:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Crum, your memory and reading are still lacking. See the archive again for documentation that there was a consensus decision. But at least you now admitt to agreed changes, which is something. So please dont revert mediated consensus decsions. Richardmalter 05:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected
I think it might be helpful if discussion preceded edit warring, and, hopefully, averted its necessity. Richard, would you care to make the case for your changes? TheStainlessSteelRat 04:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, AKA TSSR, see comments above re the protected version; summary: it is completely arbitrary. Your question just above applied equally to the version you reverted.

If you cannot see that, as one of many examples:

''The fact that patent was granted to the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test has been cited as an example of 'high weirdness' [8] by at least one firm of patent attorneys, and by another firm of patent attorneys as 'just plain offensive,' presenting an illustrative example. . .''

is original research, then I think we have a major problem with your understanding of WP policies. If Crum cannot do the same, the same applies to him in addition to his memory and reverting of his decisions.Richardmalter 05:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have blocked both user:Crum375 and user:Richardmalter for edit warring. Protection of the page clearly isn't being productive either, so it seems like blocking is the way to go so minor, uncontroversial edits can be made. Cowman109 Talk 05:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've taken the liberty, then, of reverting to the status quo ante so that, in time, perhaps, a more measured discussion may follow. TheStainlessSteelRat 06:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)