Talk:BGR-34/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 20:53, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Reading now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you:-) &#x222F; WBG converse 05:53, 5 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The drug has been heavily criticized as a sham treatment.[2] – The source does not explicitly condemn it as a sham treatment or placebo, it just states that scientific evidence was not adequately provided.
 * Good point and will need to think on this; need to re-read all the sources.
 * Probably, we need to re-frame that, w/o using the word. &#x222F; WBG converse 13:48, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Removed word. &#x222F; WBG converse 16:42, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Make sure that all information from the lead also appears in the body. This way, you do not necessarily need references in the lead.
 * ❌It (near-entirely) appears in body and I remember at least 2 FA with abundant citations in lead. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:13, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * That is fine, at least for an GA. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * ; Berberis aristata (daruharidra), Tinospora cordifolia (giloy), Pterocarpus marsupium (vijaysar), Gymnema sylvestre (gudmar), Rubia cordifolia (manjeestha) and Fenugreek (methi) – I suggest to use a colon . Also, scientific names need to be in italics, while common names are not written in italics.
 * ✅; concur in entirety.
 * References often lack publisher, author or other information, and formatting is not uniform (e.g., "CSIR launches ayurvedic anti-diabetic drug BGR-34". @businessline.). Also, there are some errors highlighted.
 * Those citation data were automatically  pulled by Citoid engine, almost always.
 * So damn boring.
 * was uploaded months to Clinical Trials Registry of India (CTRI) months later – something off here.
 * ✅; struck the first months.Stray word insertion.
 * Claims of high clinical efficacy in multiple clinical and animal trials were reported by CSIR. – Do you mean claims were made by CSIR? If they only reported them, who made the claims?
 * ✅; they (CSIR) made the claims :-)
 * and it was near-unanimously described as inefficient. – this general statement contradicts an earlier statement that news outlets first favoured the drug.
 * ❌; once detailed investigations by media-units were over, (post the initial phase, which I deem as a plain rebroadcast of press-releases), the myth was busted from all quarters and favorable coverage trickled to zero. See WP:FALSEBALANCE.
 * Still, "near-unanimously" is a very strong wording, which is not supported by the cited source. I would read from the source that it was criticised by many, but that "it was near-unanimously described as inefficient" is not covered by the source as far as I can see. What about using "widely" instead, which seems less absolute? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Concur to an extent. ✅. Note that the Ken piece mentions:-Mainstream media, without a peep into its conspicuous claims, kept it in circulation by publishing reports of how BGR-34 is a breakthrough drug.......But other scientists and doctors are asking questions, and they can’t find any answers......A non-trivial feat if the mechanism of action, safety, efficacy and evidence of clinical management of diabetes is proven and peer reviewed. Except, it is not.......There are inconsistencies galore......
 * A Lancet paper described. Also with other cited papers: We usually give the authors, not the journals. In this case, it makes sense to name the journals, but think about to also name the first author (+ "and colleagues")
 * ❌ The Lancet is regarded as the gold standard for publication in medicinal fields and it is criticism published by such a respected piece, that matters. The emphasis will be lost by much, if we remove that. Also, the authors are hardly any notable and it does not aid in the reader's understanding of the topic. If a reader wants to retrieve bibliographic data; the citation has all that stuff.
 * That is fine. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Diabetes needs to be in lower case
 * ✅ for one case; barring the upper cases(s) stemming from quoted stuff.
 * commercialize-able – I think this word is not possible, can you reformulate?
 * ✅; that will be commercializable.
 * Harsh Vardhan, Minister for Science & Technology has claimed of the drug being well received by people – "has claimed that the drug is well received by people"?
 * Meh. Feel free to change, at your discretion.
 * It's fine as is, this was maybe not a good suggestion. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * blood glucose level – levels
 * ✅ for one case; barring the plurals stemming from quoted stuff.
 * and noted that the ministry was not any involved in the affairs. – do we need the "any"?
 * ✅; concur.
 * There still is a "citation needed" tag.
 * ❌ Don't spot any.
 * I'm sorry, I menat "clarification needed". Please make sure that all maintainance tags are resolved. If you disagree with one tag, I think it is fine to remove. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)


 * This is my first go; I have the general impression that the article does not fully delivers a neutral point of view; in parts it reads like an opinion piece. Maybe some language adjustment/more careful wording is all that is needed. I will think about it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:40, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the feedback. I feel this to be complete NPOV stuff but am very willing to listen to criticisms:-) &#x222F; WBG converse 15:13, 9 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Without high quality trials, the efficacy of the drug remains unproven.[3][4] – This statement is not covered by the two sources. The problem is that it relates to the presence. This trial was published after the two sources were. So you would need a source stating that this trial did not prove efficacy and was not high standard, or reformulate in some way. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:44, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Sorry, the book by Nirmal Sengupta indeed does not support the exact line:-( I wanted to cite the AltNews piece and it was an error on my part. FWIW, can you access the Ken piece?
 * Unfortunately not; I recommend asking at the WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request if somebody has access. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:50, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Your second point is quite good and merits a detailed reply. &#x222F; WBG converse 08:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I just fixed the reference errors. As soon as you resolved the two outstanding sourcing issues, I will probably be able to pass it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:02, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing the references. RL is hectic for the last few days and I will tend to those two issues, soon enough. &#x222F; WBG converse 13:48, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * One left. &#x222F; WBG converse 16:46, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

The question is - can there be a Good Article about a bad product, and would there be a perception that a GA reflects favorably on the quality of science for the product? Also, I agree with the opinion expressed in the preceding section, that this article is extremely over-referenced, belaboring minor factual statements with a long string of references that do not cumulatively add to the support of the statements. Less is more!!! David notMD (talk) 17:18, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It can be a Good Article if it meets the criteria and is neutrally written, no question about it. I don't necessarily agree that this is over-referenced; sometimes you need multiple references to demonstrate a consensus. I don't really see the point of "more is less" in this case; additional references don't hurt. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:33, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Given that you are the reviewer I will not remove any more references (but in my opinion the last section is way over-referenced). I intend to take a careful look at the results of the clinical trial. David notMD (talk) 23:10, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Confirming that there is one published, placebo-controlled trial, published in two journals (and presented at at least two conferences). There is statistical analysis, but weak - given design of four months duration with monthly testing, analysis of variance would have been the correct test. Instead, the authors did a student's t-test on beginning and ending data. In the U.S., one clinical trial would not be considered sufficient evidence to market a dietary supplement with strong claims (this would not be a 'drug' in the U.S.), but legally, a company would be allowed to bring such a product to market with claims that use what is referred to as Structure:Function wording. Example: "Helps maintain normal blood glucose levels." I am not familiar with legalities in India. David notMD (talk) 09:39, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Wot Jens sez. I don't see any minimal over-referencing apart from a line in the last subsection with about 23 refs. Will tend to that and cull to about 12:-) &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 18:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Addressing the sole remaining issue of this GAR:--
 * Jens has noted
 * I thank David for invoking my attention to the fact that this newly published trial is a new trial. The bunch of researchers (or charlatans, as you prefer) had conducted a CTrial way back in 2016, which they did not publish for long. As there was a lot of hullabaloo post the initial charm as to the complete dearth of any data, they chose to upload the same to CTRI database and subsequently published the same over EJPMR, a journal deemed to be predatory per both Beall's and Cabells' list. It did not take long for the media to pinpoint EJPMR as a shitty journal. So, they chose an OMICS conference, the most shittiest of all predatory publishers out over there, which had the dubious distinction of being summarily awarded a 50 million USD fine, courtesy a FTC suit for mass-fraud. Finally, they latched on to IJTCM for publishing the same stuff. And, Elsevier AND China has an extraordinarily high rate of ........... Days back, it was assigning peer review of one of it's journal to some quasi-governmental institute having numerous crank-heads and raised a storm in social-media.
 * A very recently published book:- also devotes pages to the BGR-34 case but makes the same observations and does not mention about the new publication over IJTCM.  &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 18:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * What is not known is whether the authors tried for a quality journal, were rejected, and then went with journals (twice for the same study) that either have no or only cursory peer review. My own concerns are no so much the choice of journal, but that the authors published incomplete reporting on their data, and with suspect statistical analysis choices. David notMD (talk) 00:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Per WP:MEDRS a clinical trial would not be considered a valid reference, but as the article is about the weakness of evidence for BGR-34, it becomes evidence.David notMD (talk) 02:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

, Where do we stand? Do you two agree on the current version on the article? I have two additional concerns about the more recent additions. If you could address them, we should be good to go.
 * The AIMIL website does not list the amounts per serving of each plant-derived ingredient. – as the source is only the AIMIL website, I would see this statement on the fringe of WP:OR. This also somehow implies that this website is the primary reference for the properties of the medication; this would also need a source to be on the safe side. Is this sentence really necessary?
 * The use of the word "unethically" is also hard on the border, and imho too much. If this attribute hasn't been attached to the thing by a reliable source (in which case this source needs to be cited), it is a unsourced judgement and as such should be removed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 01:28, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I removed "unethically." That was my condemnation for publishing same study in two journals. The other sentence (also mine) can also be removed. David notMD (talk) 02:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I removed the sentence and the ref to AIMIL website. I am not familiar with label regulations in India. In the U.S., labels must list all ingredients, but are not required to provide the amounts of each ingredient. David notMD (talk) 09:50, 25 April 2019 (UTC)


 * , I think we are good to go. None of us - three have any concerns about the current state of the article. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 09:56, 26 April 2019 (UTC)