Talk:BM-21 Grad

Title
I am concerned that the article title "9K51 Grad" does not appear at all in the lengthy article itself. - cohesion  &#9733;  talk  04:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If you are concerned that the article might be about the wrong weapon or that the designation BM-21 or 9K51 is incorrect, it is not. As far as I know, BM-21 is the launching vehicle (BM probably stands for "Boyevaya mashina" - "Combat vehicle"), while 9K51 is the whole system including both BM-21 and a fire control system called "Vivariy". The article needs work, though. Bukvoed 10:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Combat Weight
The Combat Weight listed in the article is 13.7 m. m is for meter, a unit of length, not weight.

Range
Looking "grad rocket range" up on the web I see that reported range is on the order of tens of kilometers: e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket and not 250-450 km as reported here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.90.237.34 (talk • contribs).


 * Don't confuse the vehicle's combat range, i.e. driving on a tank of gas, with the weapon system's effective range. —Michael Z. 2006-07-19 14:01 Z 

Does Hamas have Grad rockets (as reported by Israeli news)
I added Hamas to the list of operators as Haaretz reported Grad rocket fire from Gaza. I doubt the truck and even the launching tube array are in Gaza as they can only bring in the missles via tunnels. I wonder if the Israeli news sources are calling generic 122mm rockets Grads. A knowledgable person should confirm if Hamas actual has a Grad weapons system, as opposed to some other. Geo8rge (talk) 03:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know too. Note that the news outlets started talking about grads after the fall of the Gaza-Egypt barrier, so they may not come via tunnels. Emmanuelm (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I already posted Hamas uses grad systems (with refernces) but there is a big but - Hamas Don't use the BM viechles but only the rocket systems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.61.76 (talk) 12:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In the video where the rockets are loaded into a truck the projectiles seem to be 2 meters or less in length. The only variant that even comes close would be the 9M28F. So are they another rocket or perhaps a variant not described in this article? - Berkoet (talk) 19:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I interpret “Grad rockets” as referring to the 122-mm rocket ammunition which can be fired from the BM-21 Grad and probably a hundred variations of it, as well as portable and single-shot launchers. But I haven't seen any indication that the BM-21 is in use there, and so Hamas/Gaza doesn't belong on the list of operators of this launch system. A more suitable place for this information is the generic article Katyusha rocket launcher.

In 2006 some news release quoted “Katyusha rocket” and was quoted repeatedly, and now another said “Grad rockets”, but we should look at these critically instead of getting hung up on a single turn of phrase. —Michael Z. 2008-12-31 23:02 z 

On 28 February 2008 at least 10 Grad rockets hit the coastal city of Ashkelon, about ten miles from the Israeli border with the Gaza Strip. At least 60 more Qassams, targeted Sderot that day. During the first few days of March 2008 dozens of Qassam rockets and Grad-type Katyushas were fired at Ashkelon, Sderot and communities bordering Gaza. Ashkelon is only a few minutes away from the Qassam-battered city of Sderot, the principal target of Qassam attacks. The western edge of Sderot is about a mile from the border with Gaza. The Israeli Center for Victims of Terror and War found that 28 percent of adults and 30 percent of children of Sderot have post-traumatic stress disorder. when Hamas broke open the border with Egypt, Hamas was able to bring in more of the manufactured Katyusha rockets(globalsecurity.org). While it is true that HAMAS carries grad rockets, they do not number at "2000" launchers as stated in this article but much less at perhaps dozens of launchers with ~100 rockets in inventory. HAMAS mostly operates the portable qassam rockets which are easier to launch and less detectable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Immortals (talk • contribs) 19:55, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * They have Grad rockets, that is 122-mm ammunition, which is smuggled in through tunnels, and fired from small launchers carried by individuals or in the back of a pickup. They don't have a single BM-21 launcher.


 * Please don't count other launchers in the operators list of the article “BM-21”, and please don't enter figures based on speculation at all. And sure as heck don't pull a number out of the air, and remove a “citation needed” tag from an article, as you did here.  This is an encyclopedia based on verifiability, not a rumour mill. —Michael Z. 2009-01-08 20:18 z 


 * This is getting out of hand. We now have several articles coming up in Google news searches which completely confound the BM-21 launcher with 122-mm ammunition (like this one which states that the 13-tonne “BM-21s weigh 150 pounds and are nine feet long”).  It's important that we clarify, and not contribute to this confusion.  Let's keep the article's nomenclature unambiguous.


 * BM-21 and Grad are names for this mobile launcher
 * 122-mm rockets are the ammunition fired from this and many other launchers, despite how sloppy the news writers are


 * Please avoid referring to “Grad rockets”, which confuses the two. —Michael Z. 2009-01-12 21:18 z 

Proposed move
There is a proposal here to move this article to a new name.-- Patton t / c 20:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

picture keeps getting changed, and people keep going into an edit war
there is a pic that i put and people keep changing it, it is a much more recent pic, compared to the old one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Look at picture description, it's says "BM-21 on display in Moscow", your new picture was taken in MSPO Poland 2007, and it is WR-40, maybe you should also change description of the photo?--Samez (talk) 20:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

thanks for pointing that out, just changed the description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 (talk • contribs) 22:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason why people kept changing it is because that BM-21 is an original Russian variant BM-21, the image of the newer Polish variant is still on the page though, but as I have earlier mentioned, it isn't an original Russian variant. Nohomers48 (talk) 07:14, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

ok, its the thing on the back of the truck that matters not the truck itself and the other picture is very old and does not look like the one in service in the russian armed forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Libya
On libyafeb17.com and possibly other sources there are reports of the pro-Gaddhafi Libyan army shooting artillery fire on rebel posts / cities in the form of "grad rockets". Please check whether Libya should be added to the list of operators. 84.188.226.228 (talk) 16:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

For anyone who needs proof of that, there is a short part in the middle part of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKoI6D_kRvc 91.37.171.187 (talk) 14:36, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

rockets?
This article is a start, but an article is needed on the rocket-versions that fit these tubes and their specific differences. There must be Russian drawings available. A big table with dimensions, weights (entire, propellant, payload), construction methods, claimed specs (range, accuracy)?69.72.27.246 (talk) 08:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

9M217 seem to be of the EFP-type http://www.splav.org/en/arms/grad/m217.asp And it has 2 sensor fuzed submunitions that can penetrate 60-70mm armor from 100 meters distance. Look for SADARM or EFP if you want any explanation I think it was used to take out ukraine armor from a video on youtube. No craters on the ground but a lot of destroyed armor. And nothing happend to a nearby tent on that video. Only armored vehicles destroyed.

Gaddafi used Grad rockets to destroy Misurata
In the period of the Libyan revolution of 17th of February, Gaddafi's brigades have fired thousands of Grad rockets for four months, starting in march ending in July towards Misurata, killing hundreds of civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.59.65.90 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Anti-ship Weapon
Various rocket types such as the BM-21 Grad system may be used in an anti-ship role in restricted waters such as the Straits of Hormuz.

Their purpose may not necessarily be to sink ships, but rather to degrade their combat capability so that other weapons such as anti-ship missiles and Fast Attack Boats could then be more effective.

By damaging or destroying radars and other electronic sensors on major warships they can be rendered combat ineffective, since the sensors and the associated computer systems which process the information are at the heart of their combat capability.

There is also the question of sustainability. Aegis cruisers only carry around 100 missiles, and have to return to port to reload. One BM-21 Grad rocket launcher can fire 40 rockets in one salvo. And then do it again in a few minutes.

With sub-munitions in the rocket warheads, the ability to damage or destroy electronic components on naval vessels would be enhanced. The Fajir-5 rocket launcher is said to be equipped with a naval search radar, so the Iranians may be giving some thought to this use for rocket launchers.

Another thought: helicopter operations could be degraded in an environment where numerous sub-munitions are blanketing the area.Azeh (talk) 01:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Syrian rebels
Here is a report they are being used by Syrian rebels

http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/08/were-un-inspectors-examining-chemical.html

The UN reports those 330mm rockets are built around a core rocket engine that is about 120mm in diameter Are they based on Grad rockets?

Defending against Grad
I'm looking for information about counter-defenses in countries like the USA who might come up against the Grad some day (directly or through allies). Would it be Blackhawks which can fly Nap of the Earth to avoid SAMs and take out Grad batteries? There is the Iron Dome, but considering the number of Grad rockets fired at once it would be impractical in particular for moving troops. -- Green  C  17:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

East Germany
It is mentioned in the German article about East Germany´s Army NVA that the BM-21 was also used by that Army: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstreitkr%C3%A4fte_der_NVA#Raketensysteme I suppose it was put out of service after Reunification, as most of the materiel of Soviet origin. Thus, Germany should be mentioned in the map as former user. Does anybody know how many systems were used there? Ernestito (talk) 13:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * According to RM-70 GDR had 265 of them out of which 36 were sold to Finland in 1991 & the rest apparently went to Greece, at least according to that article. Ape89 (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

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Picture of its rocket
There should be a picture of its rocket (unfired / unused) to display the shape, size etc. Venkat TL (talk) 18:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Order of Variants section
It appears as if there was some vague attempt to order this section alphabetically, but it may have been chronological. Before I'm WP:BOLD, I thought I'd ask around about a consensus. --Eliyahu S Talk 10:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Who's Kieran Grant?
One listed operator is "Kieran Grant". This must be a mistake right? I can't imagine there's a country called Kieran Grant and all other non-state users are listed under their respective nation. So is this just some guy who happens to own a Grad system or has someone just added themself to be funny? 2001:1BA8:170E:BA00:4556:795D:C848:549C (talk) 23:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)