Talk:BMT Fourth Avenue Line

FourthAv comments
I added some links and also station data. More is need, clearly -- history of the line, etc. --FourthAve 8 July 2005 20:45 (UTC)

A massive reorg and rewrite. The history is weak and some additional links are needed. I particularly would like to see someone do a write-up on the Atlantic Avenue-Pacific Street station complex. I see someone has done a redirect. --FourthAve 9 July 2005 01:02 (UTC)

Service history
pre-1940:
 * 2a
 * 1916-1940: local 95th-tunnel
 * 3a
 * 1916-1940: express 36th-bridge
 * 3b
 * 1920-1931: express 36th-tunnel (rush hours)
 * 1931-1940: local 36th-CW loop (rush hours)
 * 4
 * 1915-1940: express 59th-bridge
 * 5a
 * 1931-1940: local 36th-tunnel (later only weekdays and Saturdays; CCW loop rush hours; express rush hours)


 * 1916-present: RR/RJ &rarr; R
 * 1916-1986?: local 95th-tunnel
 * 1986?-present: local 95th-tunnel (all times; cut back to 36th late nights)


 * 1915-present: N &rarr; M &rarr; N
 * N 1915-1967: express 59th-bridge
 * N 1967-1986: express 59th-bridge (all times; local south of 36th late nights)
 * N 1986-1987: express 59th-bridge (all times; local via tunnel weekday daytime [and late nights?])
 * M 1987-1994: express 36th-tunnel (weekday daytime)
 * N 1994-2004: express 59th-tunnel (local late nights)
 * N 2004-present: express 59th-bridge (local late nights)


 * 1916-present: 3/5 &rarr; T &rarr; B &rarr; W &rarr; D
 * 3 1916-1957: express 36th-bridge
 * 3 1957-1959: express 36th-bridge (weekday and Saturday daytime and evenings)
 * 3 1920-1931: express 36th-tunnel (rush hours)
 * 5 1931-1959 express 36th-CCW loop (rush hours)
 * T 1959-1967: express 36th-bridge (weekday rush hours and evenings and Saturday daytime and evenings)
 * B 1967-1968: express 36th-bridge (weekday and Saturday daytime and evenings)
 * B 1968-1986?: express 36th-bridge (all times; local late nights)
 * B 1986?-2002: express 36th-bridge (all but late nights)
 * W 2002-2004: express 36th-bridge (all times; local via tunnel late nights and weekends)
 * D 2004-present: express 36th-bridge (all times; local late nights)


 * 1931-1967, 1987-present: 3/5 &rarr; TT &rarr; M
 * 3 1931-1959: local 36th-CW loop (rush hours)
 * 5 1931-1954: local 36th-tunnel (all but rush hours)
 * TT 1959-1967: local 36th-tunnel (weekday daytime)
 * N 1987-1994: local 59th-tunnel
 * M 1994-1995: local 36th-tunnel (weekday daytime)
 * M 1995-2001: local 36th-tunnel (rush hours)
 * M 2001-2004: local 36th-tunnel (weekday daytime and evenings)
 * M 2004-present: local 36th-tunnel (rush hours)


 * 1967-1968: NX
 * 1967-1968: express 59th-bridge (rush hours in peak direction)

Newspaper articles
This is part of (1908). --NE2 12:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

10. WON T alter SUBWAY PLAN. Utilities Board Refuses to Abandon Ashland Place, Brooklyn, Loop. the Public Service Commission announced yesterday that It had decided l Against the proposal of the l'nited Bor[ Transit Association for the modi cation of the plane of the Fourth Avenue, ' Brooklyn, SUBWAY, so that the Ashland !Place Loop should be abandoned m. of four additional tracks on Flatbush i Avenue. i the Ashland Place route was originally .selected in order to provide AN independent line for the Fourth Avenue SUBWAY. It extends from the Junction of Fult(,n Street and Flatbush Avenue along Fulton Street to Ashland Place, and then through Fourth Avenue, crossing under the present SUBWAY at Flatbush Avenue. It will cost $7000000, including the necessary cost of the real estate. If four additional tracks on Platbush Avenue were built the tube would have to pass under the present Sub,'ay and would be so deep that It would be below the level of the East River.

And here's one from 1910. --NE2 12:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

FOURTH AVE. SUBWAY ROUTE FOUND FAULTY; Service Commissioners Maltble and Bassett File Report Describing Defects. Incidental to a letter from the Public Service Commission to the Board of Estimate yesterday regarding a proposed shift of 10 feet in the course of the Fourth Avenue, Brooklyn, Subway where it passes through Ashland Place, between Fourth Avenue and the Flatbush Avenue extension, a vigorous memorandum by Commissioners Maltble and Bassett became public. the two Commissioners HAVE op. posed from the start the FOURTH Avenuo ROUTE as planned. in the memorandum referred to here they declare that the entire scheme of that SUBWAY under which CONTRACTS HAVE BEEN LET was going to bo needlessly expensive and Impractical an operating point of view. the Commission has always BEEN three to two on the FOURTH Avenue Sub* way so far as routes are concerned^ Ohaii* man \Vlllcox and Commissioners MoCai* roll and Eustls constituting the majority. as it stands the protest of Commission1ers Maltbie and Bassett cannot accomplish any practical ends, particularly now that the CONTRACTS HAVE BEEN LET, for che majority of the Commission, while the possibility of changing tho CONTRACTS for construction by agreement with the contractors and the contractors' sureties, does not consider the question at ROUTE an open ono. a good deal of attention, nevertheless, owas attracted by the memorandum the dissenting Commissioners, wUo argue that the existing Plan of sending Traffic from both the FOURTH Avenue aiw the Broadway-Lafayette Avenue Subways in Brooklyn into the four tracks running down the Flatbush Avenue extension ami over the Manhattan Bridge would causa a general choking of Traffic and seriously with the profitable operation of any of tlio Brooklyn lines. the reason tor the shift in tho Ashland Place section of the SUBWAY, which the majority of tii1/2 Commission propose to the Board of Estimate, Is that the present layout in Asnlaud Place Will Be dangerous to the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

Fortunately th1/2 construction has not yet so far that it Is too late. the extravagant cost of this SUBWAY layout occurs between the corner of Flatbush and FOURTH Avenues and Fulton Street and Flatbush Avenue, where, instead of going direct it Is forced through Ashland Place and Fulton Street, taking two wide turns and requiring tho use of a very large amount of private real estate. " Ashland Place Is only 60 feet, and to LET the SUBWAY through all the buildIngs on the westerly side of this Street Will need to bo torn down for two '. as it swings into Fulton Street Hie o building frontage on the southerly side of Fulton Street, between .Asliiand Place and Kockwell Place, Will iiu destroyed. on the northerly side of- . Street all of the buildIngs Will Be 1/2' for a distance of two blocks. this destruction of buildIngs and taking of private real estate Is far greater than was originally expected, and If it had BEEN anticipated would probably havo BEEN sufficient to HAVE caused tho lino to Be placed elsewhere.

the result Is that a" SUBWAY originally designed to pass through the Public streets Is now too largo to Be contained within the streets, and to make room for it the buildIngs along the SUBWAY, where land Is very valuable, must Be torn down and private land- pur-^ chased.

in other words, the detour through Ashland Plaoa and Fulton Street Will make the about $5.000,000 more than it would Be If a straight layout near the surface could bo obtained. this detour Is necessary because the FOURTH Avenue SUBWAY Is planned to go under and across the line of the present Interborough SUBWAY. " tho worst feature of the present layout, however. Is that the SUBWAY when completed Will lack the capacity in Flatbush Avenue extension and on Manhattan Bridge to carry the Traffic that Is being planned to pour into it. the Manhattan Bridge Will accommodate four Rapid Transit tracks. Flatbush Avenue extension all its throat Is planned to contain the same number. Those four tracks feed into four tracks upon the Manhattan side of the Bridge-two going west in Canal Street and two south via Centre Street to city Hall Park. If the Traffic Be equally divided between these two lines they Will not limit the capacity of the tracks over the Bridge. But by far the greater ber of persona Will wish to go south to city Hall. Consequently'many more trains Will need to Be run through the Centra Street line than through the Canal Street line, and the two tracks to city Hall Will become the limiting factors. the four tracks in Flatbush AventtS extension Will ultimately Be called f.pon to take care of express and local trains" from Fort Hamilton and Staten Island* express and local trains from Coney Island, and Lafayette Avenue can Be used in only a portion of their capacity so long as the line in the Plat bush Avenue extension Is the only outlet/ " Whatever affects capacity affects future earning ability. If, for Instance*' the Lafayette Avenue SUBWAY in tha future Is compelled to run trains four minutes apart instead of two minuted apart, because of congestion at the Manhattan Bridge, the .future net earnings OS that line Will Be very greatly reduced. " Some HAVE pointed out that there la fl v/ay to obviate this choking by building a Sub-way south of the Chambers Street sta-J tlon in Manhattan through "William Street! to Old Slip, thence under the Blast River, up Montaerue Street in Brooklyn, ana through Willoughby Street to its Intersection with Flatbush Avenue extension. But William Street Is in places not mora than thirty-nine feet wide, whereas a typical two-track section of the FOURTH Avenue SUBWAY la thirty-one and a Hall feet wide, exclusive of stations. the ATV pel late Division on the 12th dav of March, 1907, refused to sanction a. SUBWAY in lower William Street on account 01 damage to abutting buildIngs, narrowness of the Street, and the presence ofj quicksand. Likewise on the 23th {Jay o January, 19O7, the Appellate Division ol the Second Department refused to tion a SUBWAY in Montague Street. " the FOURTH Avenue SUBWAY should brf turned down Atlantic Avenue and the East River to tho Battery, where"!! should become aj>art of the Broadwayl Lexington Avenue SUBWAY, this simple: change would make possible a southern sr.bway system wholly south of Fulton Street, a central SUBWAY system, consist* tr.g of the Interboroush, with possible x? tensions out Flatbush Avenue, Eastern: Parkway, and to Flatbush, and a northern SUBWAY system composed of the Lafayettq Avenuo SUBWAY and its branches : to Rldsewood and East New Tork, :o. " tha. trunk portion of the northerly SUBWAY system, would enter Brooklyn^ business district through Lafayette Aw nue, turn into Fulton Street, and run through 'Flatbush Avenue ! o and across Manhattan Bridge. Whei enlarged to a four-track line. it " HAVE abundant capacity, and a ! straight out Fulton Street would not b(" precluded. If the FOURTH Avenue Subwa; Is constructed as now planned, riders de siring to go north or south in Manhattai must change cars at the corner of Cana Street and Broad-wav, to become T>art o ' the rush Traffic on the Broadway-Lexlng ton Avenue SUBWAY every '-'am : morning, whereas via an Atlantlo Aven1/2i tunnel they go .Jrr 'dj o: to ::tra1/2-;te -ro' Blotesi ^^fl^tq^^e 6.

External links modified
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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:IRT Lexington Avenue Line which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 06:45, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Mentioning the service patterns in the station layout and the lead
I'd like to discuss Jemorie's objection to the inclusion of service patterns in the station layouts of BMT Fourth Avenue Line station articles (example: 53rd Street station (BMT Fourth Avenue Line)). He says None of them repeat the sentence "The __ train stops here at all times. The __ train also stops here during late nights but uses the express tracks to bypass the station during daytime hours." term besides the summary lede and the info box. Like I repeatedly said before, it is overly wordy and unnecessary. Hence my repeated protests. Kew Gardens 613 disagrees per MOS:LEAD, and I agree with Kew Gardens 613. The previous discussion was on Kew Gardens 613's talk page. epicgenius (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2020 (UTC)