Talk:BMW M1 Procar Championship

Comments from
Hey! So generally a well written article with a lot of love put into it, but a few things:

I didn't see a reference to things like lap counts, lap sizes, duration of the race, the size of the competition, etc. - this may not be important for racing type events, but would have made interesting stats nonetheless.
 * In terms of race length (lap counts), it's stated in the format section that "Races varied in length, but each lasted for approximately half an hour." As to the size of the competition, that also varied, although a mention of the approximate size will be added.

Also, the idea of one-make auto racing series is rather interesting - did Procar suffer much from this restriction (I'd imagine that other car manufacturers didn't much like the idea), and did this contribute to BMW's decision to stop running Procar? And what role did Procar play (if it did play a significant role) in the development of its host company BMW? Are there any reasons behind BMW's present plans to revitalize Procar, especially given the deteriorating state of the automobile industry in general? Just some interesting questions that would be cool to answer.
 * One make series are actually quite popular in motorsports. We have things such as the Porsche Supercup, Ferrari Challenge, TVR Tuscan Challenge, Spec Miata, and numerous others.  It's not seen as a restriction for the series but more as a promotion tool as well as a way to concentrate on driver skill rather than mechanical workmanship.  Other manufacturers played no part or had no influence in the creation or end of Procar.


 * Procar on the other hand did help BMW develop their motorsports program for the World Championship, which in turn helps the company in general through advancements, although none really came specifically from Procar. The revival was just a one time event, a historical look back on what was the 30th anniversary of the launch of the M1.  There's no plans to continue the revival, especially as these cars are very old and cost quite a lot to their collector/owners.  It is simply nostalgia, not a future plan for BMW.

 Valce  1   (talk)  00:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A word of note, regarding Peer Review. It's actually best if you provide your critique at the article's actual Peer Review page, instead of on the talk page.  This at least lets everyone easily see your comments on the Peer Review area. Your work is appreciated however. The359 (talk) 01:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved.  Ron h jones (Talk) 19:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Procar → BMW M1 Procar Championship — This is the name of the series as listed in the first line of the article. Also allowing Procar (disambiguation) to be moved to Procar. —-Falcadore (talk) 01:19, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

BS Fabrications?
... as well as the head of BS Fabrications, who had built several of the Procar M1s. Really “BS Fabrications”? I thought several Procars were built by Project Four Racing/Ron Dennis. Please check Ron Dennis. Olli1800 (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Earlier in the article: "All cars used in the Procar Championship were built to identical standards, although their origins varied. BS Fabrications constructed five cars for the BMW factory team, while cars for other competitors were constructed by the British Formula Two team Project Four (led by Ron Dennis) and the Italian constructor Osella." Ron Dennis' article also states that Project Four "participated in the build programme for Procar BMW M1 racing cars".


 * The source for the article states "The remaining entries were built up and prepared by Osella in Turin and Project Four in Woking although in reality, all but two of these customer cars were built by the English outfit run by McLaren boss, Ron Dennis." and "1979's works cars were white and red and prepared in Luton, England by BS Fabrications on behalf of FOCA and BMW, this deal concluded by Bernie Ecclestone."


 * Seems to all check out to me. The359  ( Talk ) 18:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello The359, thanks for your reply! I guess you refer to this (no longer supported) reference QV500. 1979's works cars were white and red... That is obviously very doubtful. Please take a look at films and pictures of the 1979 season. Works cars were white and crosswise lined with BMW Motorsport colours (blue violett GLASURIT-BMW 4000, light blue GLASURIT-BMW 5002, red GLASURIT-BMW 353). But the Project Four M1 Procar driven by Niki Lauda (article: initially earning a spot in the factory BMW team in the first round, before running the remaining seven races for Project Four) had a white and red finish (see picture at QV500). all but two of these customer cars were built by the English outfit run by McLaren boss, Ron Dennis. Ron Dennis arrived at McLaren not before September 1980, so McLaren was non-involved in the preparation of the BMW M1 Procars. Furthermore the reference states Niki Lauda who finished the championship in first place with 78 points, second placed Hans Stuck just two points behind. Hans-Joachim Stuck gained "only" 73 points... the German having won twice in his Alimpo entry... Toine Hezemans drove the BMW M1 of Alimpo Sport / BMW Holland in the 1979 season, Stuck was the pilot of the Cassani Racing car (please check here QV500-1979 Season and here Tin-top kings). Unfortunately a lot of mistakes...

Moreover I checked the BMW publication Mobile Tradition live 2003 M1 Special – 25 years of the BMW M1: ''Instead of finishing up at Baur, the pre-assembled M1 cars in this case went either straight to BMW Motorsport or to the renowned tuning companies of Osella in Italy or Ron Dennis in England for final production, with the selection and supply of parts handled by the Munich company. Neerpasch viewed this diversification as a means of encouraging healthy competition in the attempt to achieve the best possible results. and ...with the models destined for Formula One drivers built exclusively by BMW Motorsport in Munich.'' Not a word about BS Fabrications... You may find a pdf of the publication on the website of the BMW Archive. Regards, Olli1800 (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Although the QV500 does make some slight errors, your interpretation of some of them is off. The "red and white works cars" are in fact from 1980, when the official entries were painted white with a singular red diagonal stripe (Monaco 1980) before later being painted white with a lime green stripe (Brands Hatch 1980).  Further, the factory cars from 1980 were entered under multiple names, with "BMW Motorsport", "BS Fabrications", and "Procar Association."  This thus implies that the reference simply had the wrong year.  Therefore, BS Fabrications, an actual team associated with F1 in the first place, obviously played some part in the Procar series if they were running the factory cars.  Remember, BMW Motorsport is usually just a title and not an actual team, the brains and muscle usually come from existing teams like Schnitzer Motorsport.  Therefore the word construction may be wrong, but BS Fabrications was certainly involved in the factory race cars in some way, either through maintaining or running.


 * As for the article stating that McLaren was involved, it's simple an error in the sentence structure. The sentence from QV500 is simply stating that Ron Dennis is known for being the boss of McLaren, it is not stating he was associated with McLaren at the time.  Exactly why a few words earlier it states that Project Four were the ones building the cars, as Dennis was the head of Project Four before buying out McLaren.
 * The359 ( Talk ) 08:10, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello The359, thanks for your comment and explanation. Is QV500 the only source for the assumption, that BS Fabrications was involved in the BMW M1 Procar-project? Maybe you can add a reliable source? For me, the publication of BMW stating that ...the models destined for Formula One drivers (were) built exclusively by BMW Motorsport in Munich seems more reliable than an internet source that is no longer updated. Regards, Olli1800 (talk) 12:34, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, just saw the program of the 200 Meilen von Nürnberg at Norisring. Interesting! But this was a race of the 1980 season. Do you have a source stating that BS Fabrications was involved in the 1979 season? Olli1800 (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not have anything directly linking BS Fabrications in 1979, but then again this article currently does not specify which year the BS Fabrication cars were built. Further, in the PDF you provided, I cannot find the statement you are quoting.  The359  ( Talk ) 17:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I found the citations in Mobile Tradition live 2003 M1 Special – 25 years of the BMW M1, more specifically:
 * * Page 16, middle column: Instead of finishing up at Baur, the pre-assembled M1 cars in this case went either straight to BMW Motorsport or to the renowned tuning companies of Osella in Italy or Ron Dennis in England for final production, with the selection and supply of parts handled by the Munich company. Neerpasch viewed this diversification as a means of encouraging healthy competition in the attempt to achieve the best possible results.
 * * Page 19, third column: ...with the models destined for Formula One drivers built exclusively by BMW Motorsport in Munich.
 * Olli1800 (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well then it's possible that BS Fabrication's role in this was effectively to run the 1980 team, thus "maintaining the cars", and that the cars in fact were originally built at BMW Motorsport. The359  ( Talk ) 21:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

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