Talk:Babi Yar in poetry

Talk:Babi Yar (poem)
I think this might be one of those cases where it's better if this was NOT a redirect so that a redlink can alert users that this is an article in need of creation. Volunteer Marek 01:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

If I can make another suggestion, it seems like right now this article would be more appropriately under something like Babi Yar in poetry or Babi Yar in literature. I'd suggest Babi Yar Massacre in poetry but it seems that "Babi Yar" by itself refers to the massacre (with "Babi Yar Massacre" being a redirect). The title Babi Yar (poem) should be a disambiguation page. It's an interesting article though.

Also, if you want to expand the arts here, there's also Babi Yar: A Document in the Form of a Novel. Volunteer Marek 22:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I see your point. But the idea of moving it to "Babi Yar in literature" is way too broad I'm afraid. However, I have nothing against a different title if more feedback from the community comes in. The "Babi Yar in poetry" sounds reasonable... either way, the new title could narrow the scope. Poeticbent talk 00:51, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Most poems mentioned here don't qualify, at this time, for stand alone articles which would justify a new disambiguation page. We don't even have articles about majority of the writers who wrote them. A disambiguation page cannot contain citations as well as interwiki links to bios in non-English Wikipedias. Poeticbent talk 05:10, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your add-ons, Volunteer Marek. Quite valuable indeed, Poeticbent talk 22:15, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting argument

 * Quoted from the 2013 Grammarist: When they are synonymous with named or called, there is no substantive difference between entitled and titled. Some people object to this use entitled, but the objection is baseless. The use of entitled to mean named goes back centuries, and entitled was in fact the preferred term until recently. Google Books uncovers only 23 instances of the phrase “book titled” in works published in the 19th century, against some 31,000 instances of “book entitled.” (Titled in those days was much more often used to mean having a noble title.) End of quote.
 * Quoted from Mignon Fogarty, Tips for Better Writing: Of course, "entitled" can indicate that someone has a certain right, but major dictionaries and usage guides state that "titled" and "entitled" are synonyms in the "name of a book, article, or speech" sense. End of quote. Poeticbent talk 17:03, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Babi Yar in Russian and World literature
This article is a valuable piece of scholarship, but also a bit misleading in its failure to evaluate the literary and political impact of the authors and poems it mentions. While Ilya Ehrenburg was (alongside his also jewish colleague) the most famous and respected Soviet war correspondent of the period, it was certainly Yevtushenko who brought the whole awful atrocity and war crime of Babi Yar and issue of the Stalin regime's anti-semitism that its long suppression to the attention of the world, and his poem by that name is by far the best, and most internationally-known.

It might be better to start the literary-history part of the article by acknowledging the act of courage Yevtushenko's poem represented, and its huge international and soviet impact in exposing the rather sadder and more complex moral universe in which the German conquest, occupation and genocide was able to take place.

The complex nature of Soviet anti-semitism should also not be forgotten. The very fact that Ehrenburg and Grossman were such popular and in-demand writers suggests, that they, like many other jews were an important part of the fabric if sometimes contested part of Soviet life, as jews had been from the time of the Russian Revolution and before.17:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)17:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)17:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)~e — Preceding unsigned comment added by ErichK (talk • contribs)
 * I agree with the sentiment expressed above. In my editorial judgment too, Yevtushenko's role here is not prominent enough. Rather than rewrite the text, I opted to add his picture near the top, where he's mentioned and move the painting, which is not even mentioned in the text, down to the paragraphs of text describing the events portrayed in the image. Apparantly, an owner of the article thinks otherwise. Woulda been nice to see a response to the first post in this thread before this edit. Woulda been nice if the edit summary wasn't quite so dismissive, too. David in DC (talk) 01:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

There's no national poetry contest here to be won by anybody. "О, русский мой народ! — / Я знаю — / ты / По сущности интернационален." Yevtushenko deserves his own section at the bottom, but will you write it? Probably not... – In terms of literary history, poetry written by Holocaust survivors is quite unique. It is inherently different from the Военная Литература written some 20 years after the Great Patriotic War. This article is not about an aesthetic experience, so let's keep things in perspective. Poeticbent talk 06:45, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably not? WP:AGF. WP:CRYSTAL. Before adding much, I was planning to continue fixing things like the reference to "by Blobel himself" which made no sense without his first name and some additional identification or wikilinks, and the misspelling of Ehrenburg that appears to have survived, uncorrected, for far too long.  The prose still needs additional copy editing, too.  Bad information is worse than no information.  Also, a lot of work was necessary to bring the article into compliance with the Manual of Style. I agree with one thing above. Let's keep things in perspective.  A good piece of advice not only here, but in all wiki-editing.  It's one reason for guidance like that found in WP:OWN. David in DC (talk) 12:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Will you please stop shouting and throwing things at me? Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 18:22, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I edited in accord with the only comment on the topic on this talk page, because I agreed. My edit was reversed, with no comment on the thread on this talk page. The edit summary was dismissive. I expressed mild dismay at both things. "Woulda been nice...." is hardly shouting. I can demonstrate shouting, upon request. The lack of discussion on the talk page and the dismissive nature of the edit summary led me to make reference to an owner. Again, that's hardly shouting.  I may have mentioned this, but I can demonstrate shouting if you like.


 * In reply, it was stated that I could write a paragraph at the end of the article, but that I probably wouldn't. I wouldn't call that shouting either, but it is kinda snotty.  I replied, trying to explain that I thought the article, as it existed, needed to be cleaned up before more was added to it.  As you can see in the edit history, I've been engaged for a couple of days in intensive editing to make this article, on this interesting and important topic, more compliant with the MOS and with common sense.  When I found it, it was full of minor errors galore: "Blobel himself"  "Ehrenburg" spelled incorrectly. Its prose sucked, in various spots, too.
 * No worries. I'll keep at it. I'll also stop leting provocative comments aimed in my general direction provoike me. Life is too short.David in DC (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Oktyabr (Oktiabr')
The wikipedia article that's the heading for this thread says Oktyabr was a Yiddish newspaper that ceased operations in 1941. But this Babi Yar article refers to publication of poems in Oktyabr in 1945-46. Does anyone know these are two different magazines or if, rather, one of the two articles is wrong? David in DC (talk) 15:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a reliable source. For more info about "Babi Yar" poem published in Oktiabr' see Maxim D. Shrayer (PDF, p. 85), quote: "Ozerov composed his Babi Yar in 1944–45, and it appeared in the April–May 1946 issue of October, where Ozerov served as poetry editor in 1946–1948." See also, confirmation of fact by David Shneer (Google books, p. 134): "Lev Ozerov (1914–1996) published his longer poem "Babi Yar" in the April-May 1946 issue of the monthly October (Oktiabr')." <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:darkblue;">Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 18:22, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the paper was suspended during the war and resumed publication towards the end of it? Volunteer Marek 18:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The material on this page is well-sourced. I'll try to find sources with which to correct the "Yiddish Newspaper" page. Does anyone know if the Oktyabr magazine here was published in Yiddish? If it was, we're probably dealing with the same magazine, and the other page needs correction.  But if the Oktobyr referred to here was publish in some other language, most likely Russian, then I'm looking at two different magazines and the other page may be accurate.  Any insights? David in DC (talk) 20:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You might want to hold off on correcting the other page - this source does say the publication of Oktyabr was stopped in 1941. So either it was resumed in 1945 or we're talking about a different newspaper. Volunteer  Marek 21:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This guy edited the post war Oktyabr. Volunteer Marek 21:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's great, thanks. So I've got a source for the '41 shutdowm, and info on who edited it when it resumed.  That helps narrow my search.  Now I only need a source for the fact that it resumed publication.  I'll do the searching for that, to fix the other page.  Does it make sense to add the link to the wiki-article for Oktyabr on this page before the Oktyabr page is fixed?  My view is that it doesn't make sense to link to a page that contradicts this page, but I'd welcome other opinions. David in DC (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * My guess (i.e. "original research") as to what happened is that there was a pre-war Yiddish magazine but because it didn't follow the Stalinist line it got shut down in 1941 and then reconstituted after the war with the "right people" in charge of it, with the new publication appropriating the old magazine name in order to give it a veneer of respectability/reputation. This kind of thing was fairly common place (the pre-war and wartime Bund wasn't exactly the same as the post-war Bund, etc). There is/was a somewhat relevant WikiProject whose members might know more on this - Jewish Labour Bund Task Force - but it's been dormant for some time. It's actually a pretty interesting question. Volunteer Marek 02:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Frankly it's bullshit
> the poet denounced both Soviet historical revisionism and still-common anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union of 1961

That guy, Donald Patterson, is full of bullshit. The poem was written when the author saw that the place of Baby Yar massacre didn't have any monument but there was a junkyard there. I am sorry, but despite it means that the Soviet Union didn't particularly care of that tragedy and/or didn't have money for monuments there, it is not the "Soviet historical revisionism" in any way, its fact was never denied.

Then, the main reason of "Antisemitism" in the Soviet Union it was Israel and its anti-Soviet policy, so in 1961 it wasn't "still common", it largely was only beginning, at least on the state level. Quite a lot of the founders of the Soviet Union were Jews after all.

The poem was criticized by a few people in the Soviet Union because it was considered that Jews constantly tried to stick out their personal tragedy too much. 6 mln Jews died? So what, 6 mln of Poles died in that war too and who cares of those except Poles?

> [I]t spoke not only of the Nazi atrocities, but also of the Soviet government's own persecution of Jewish people.

Now, that's the complete bullshit. The poem mentions some anti-Jewish right wing pogroms in the pre-revolutionary Russia and evokes "The Internationale", which was the first Soviet anthem, at the end. Did that Donald Patterson bother to read the poem, I wonder? He blamed the Soviet Union in the historical revisionism while he himself is full of anti-Soviet revisionism.

IMO it would be nice to get rid of that Donald Patterson's crap and to quote a good book about the matter, but I don't really care of this pile of shit, i mean Wikipedia, to do it myself.

P.S. Pretending to be a persecuted nation gave Jews quite a lot including the ability to persecute other nations and to hold them in reservations without giving those full civil rights... I mean Palestinians in Israel. Jewish tragedies already were compensated, as much as humans can compensate the former massacres, but who and when will compensate the tragedies of those whom the modern Jews kill and mistreat? It rather seems they have the free ticket to do so, because some of their ancestors were killed by Nazi. Now I bet they will call me antisemitic because the modern Jews play their victim card pretty well, if you dislike the policy of their state or their constant seeking for the past offenses when they pretend to be a special snowflake nation who needs a special snowflake compensation, you are like a Nazi or something...77.34.16.108 (talk) 09:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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