Talk:Babson College/Archive 1

POV
Please take a look at Avoid academic boosterism. I'm putting an NPOV tag on this page until it gets toned down into something resembling an objective, neutral article. It is promotional in tone practically from start to finish.

The entire Rankings section should be removed; no more than the most relevant one or two need be mentioned in the article.

Statements such as "The Babson campus consists of 370 acres (1.5 km²) of woods, rolling hills, and carefully landscaped grounds" are likely true, but need to have a verifiable source cited for them. Undoubtedly there is a travel guide or newspaper article that says somethiing like this. This sort of statement is an opinion or judgement, ditto soaring, light-filled atria, etc. It happens to be a very reasonable opinion, but Wikipedia does not report the opinions of editors. It's a secondary source. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Something ought to be said about the history of the college and the quirky Roger Babson, who made a fortune by some goofy theories about how the law of gravity applied to the stock market; using these theories, he predicted the Depression and profited greatly therefrom. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Update
I've removed the notice, as User:Anville has put the article into reasonable shape. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally I've just noticed that a good deal of the excised material seems to have been copied verbatim from the Babson website, which would have presented copyright problems if not removed. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Gravity monument
In describing the Gravity Monument I'm relying on Roadside America's description. Can anyone confirm that there is such a monument on the Babson College campus? our article on the Gravity Research Foundation indicates that numerous such monuments were placed on college campuses but doesn't mention Babson as one of them. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that the Roadside America article says:
 * While you're visiting, look for several odd monuments in the vicinity.

It then describes the Gravity monument.

Several odd monuments? What are the others? Dpbsmith (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I emailed George Rideout, Jr. President of the Gravity Research Foundation, and he responded that there is not one at Babson College. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It does not rotate! I lived in Coleman 2003-2004.

Recent Babson Globe edits
A user without an account recently made some unexplained edits to the Babson Globe section. With regard to the globe's deterioration, it documented in the references provided.

With regard to the Coleman Relief Map's disposition, the word "destroyed" is the word used by a Babson representative, rybnikar@babson.edu, as noted above. If, in fact, the map was removed but not destroyed, i.e. if it was in fact preserved, it would be interesting to know where it is and what, if any, future plans there are for it. If it was in fact destroyed, as Babson College says, then I don't know what the point would be of using imprecise language. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable alumni
I've removed this entry because it sounds like it might be a joke or a hoax: and because, being a redlink, we have no article on him and he isn't even identified.
 * George Laham (VP of Delivery at Dominos)
 * Haydon Burns

This in turn has led me to put tags on the other entries that are redlinks and unsourced. They all sound plausible and are probably correct, but if people are going to add joke entries we need to start getting serious about the verifiability policy. They can be reinserted if someone cares to find and add a verifiable source. Per the verifiability policy, "the burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain."

(In addition, someone ought to check the entries for which we do have articles to see whether they actually mention and provide a source for the person's having attended Babson).


 * William J. Allard (Chairman of Marquis Jet)
 * Gustavo A. Cisneros (President/CEO of Organizacion Diego Cisneros)
 * Roger Enrico (CEO of PepsiCo)
 * John C. Merritt (Chairman/CEO of Van Kampen Merritt Holdings Corp)
 * Stephen Spinelli, Jr. (Founder of Jiffy Lube)
 * Andronico Luksic (Chairman/CEO QUINENCO Group (Owns Antofagasta plc, Banco De Chile)

In about a week, I plan to remove any entries that are still unsourced. They can, of course, be reinserted at any time if they are reinserted with a verifiable source. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability issues with "notable alumni"
Of the twelve people currently listed, only Ernesto Bertarelli of them has an entry that meets the verifiability policy. Many have neither Wikipedia articles nor other sources. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Allard, Cisneros, Enrico, Merritt, Spinelli, Laham: No Wikipedia articles and no other sources.
 * Hamilton, Mugar: current Wikipedia articles do not mention Babson, nor do any of the sources mentioned in those articles.
 * Bensen, Blank: current Wikipedia article does mention Babson, but the mention in the article is not sourced.

Notable alumni fixed
All looks fine now--thanks, 192.223.243.6. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Ognjen Glisic
Snipping pending an explanation of why he's notable, and a good source citation showing he is a Babson alumnus. The cited web page doesn't mention Babson, and I don't think a myspace website meets the guidelines for source citations. He does appear to be a "staff member" of the Babson Office of Residential Life. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ognjen Glisic (Serbian Rap Artist)

Resnipping: I don't think a student is considered an alumnus unless after he has left; the citation is to non-English content, which I can't read, but since his name does not even appear on the referenced page I don't see how it establishes that he is a notable rap artist; but in any case a web forum would not usually be considered a good source for such a claim.
 * Ognjen F. Glisic (Student of Babson College)

I'm inclined to think this is vanity or self-promotion but am willing to be convinced otherwise. Has anyone got a good, verifiable source citation from a good source that says he is an important rap artist? If the source is not in English, please give a translation. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Babson Globe
P. S. If you're wondering, I came across this page because I wanted to find out the status of the Babson Globe and the Coleman Relief Map. The Babson Globe was apparently restored in 1994, having literally deteriorated into nothing but a rusty ball, but I can't find out whether it actually rotates. The Babson website, describes it as "capable" of rotating&mdash;suggesting to me that it in fact it doesn't; but this site seems to say that it does.

The Coleman Map Building at one time housed a giant relief map of the United States. From the fact that it is now called Coleman Hall I suspect it doesn't any more. Anyone know anything more about this... and if it doesn't exist, what happened to it? Dpbsmith (talk) 18:25, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The US map housed in the building was removed several years ago. I'll see if I can find where it's gone to. DEddy 18:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

As a current student who is living in Coleman Hall for the past two years, it does not rotate anymore and I'm not sure if it is still capable of rotating still. 155.48.248.18 (talk) 17:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The relief map was said to have been removed about the year 2000. There was a paragraph written about its features, use and construction, but that paragraph was shortly and completely deleted. Too bad, because the map said something about Roger Babson and his theories, which are an important chapter in the history of American education.

Babson Medal
Maybe someone can address this page and write a paragraph on the Babson Medal into this article. Reference for list of honorary degrees is here  and there are sure to be some wikilinked persons on that page - such as African American George E. Johnson, Sr. --User:Brenont (talk) 17:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Tags
I just tagged the article for several things, and probably could've add more. The article really isn't in line with UNIGUIDE, has huge lists of redlinked "notables" mostly with the Babson website as their sources, tons of ranking information, a list of unacceptable external links, no inline citations, &c. I'll get to work on this when I can. --King of the Arverni (talk) 19:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Rankings and Recognition
Is there a need for such a detailed list of rankings, etc. This supposed to be an encyclopedic entry, not a place for the college to boast about its achievements. A few mentions should suffice, rather than this section become the focal point of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * Well put. I'll look into that. --King of the Arverni (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Phrasing claim for the Babson Globe
I've been trying to figure out a snappy yet accurate way to phrase the Babson Globe's current claim to fame. Babson's website calls it "one of the world's largest free standing globes (28 feet in diameter, weighing 25 tons) capable of revolving on its base and spinning on its axis" but since it is, in fact, not capable of doing this any more, this does not seem right.

My wife humorously suggested "The largest formerly-rotating globe in the world" (Eartha, of course, not counting because it still does rotate). I'm settling for:


 * It was for many years the largest rotating globe in the world and, as of 2005, the second-largest one ever built. (For the largest, see Eartha).


 * The orginal Babson Globe was constructed of panels with enameled surface for the land & water details. The panels eventually began rusting off.  When the globe was rebuilt, DeLorme provided vinyl (e.g. much less weight) panels for the visual details.  DEddy (talk) 16:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I contacted Babson via their website about the exact status of the globe and relief map and received the following email from rybnikar@babson.edu:


 * When the globe was built it did revolve but time has taken its toll. "Capable" simply means that it was built to move even if it no longer does. It used to be the world's largest globe capable of  such movement.  The current largest is Eartha built by DeLorme of Freeport, ME. A large static globe would be something different.


 * The map was destroyed in 1997/8 to allow the conversion of the building into residences for students.

Coleman Hall Map
What is needed for "verifiability?" Coleman Hall is still there. The map WAS there (inside Coleman Hall) but is no longer.

What do you want? Something from the archives? What are you objecting too? DEddy (talk) 14:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Read WP:VERIFY. If you still don't understand, let me know and I'll explain further. Cheers! --King of the Arverni (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I read it & it doesn't help... WHAT do you need to verify? That alleged description of VERIFY cleared up nothing.  The picture of the globe shows Colemen in the background.  What else do you want?  DEddy (talk) 15:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you read it? It clearly states that "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." And then under Verifiability (sometimes people use WP:RS but WP:V actually takes precedence), it says "Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." It then goes on to list commonly accepted reliable sources. I'd rather teach a man how to fish here than just give him a quick fix, so I'd encourage you to read it again (more comprehensively this time). But the bottom line is that the information I removed wasn't cited, much less by a reliable source, so nothing was verifiable and it therefore didn't belong in this encyclopedia. That said, if you can find a reliable source (since the WP:BURDEN is on the editor who wishes to include the information) then that'd be great. Hope that makes a bit more sense! --King of the Arverni (talk) 15:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Hmmm... me thinks I've been living with the spooks for too long.  A published 2009 Yale University press book (what I'd like to think to be a reliable source, with some modicom of fact checking... but who knows) has a claim that says a 1944 statement was indicative of agreement with 1953 events.  So much for reliable & verifiable.  Point being: all sort of "reliable" citations are flat out W-R-O-N-G.  And by your/VERIFY standard since they're in print & citable they're ok.DEddy (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Translation to FR
Hi, this is to advise that this article has just been translated onto WP:FR, and to thank all the contributors to the original one. Hop ! Kikuyu3 (talk) 17:01, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Rankings
I just reverted the big long list of rankings that an editor added, for a variety of reasons. First, the list is an almost exact copy (including the phrasing) as that found on Babson College Fast Facts and Rankings page. That info (whatever we are eventually able to include) must be re-written into our own words; ideally, it should be transformed into prose rather than be a bulleted list. Second, I can't find any verification for the vast majority of that. For example, I can't even find a category on US News and World report called "Entrepreneurship", much less verify it for 14 years in a row. Third, we should not be including every single ranking Babson includes on their college website; doing so is promotional, not informative. Parade magazine is not a valid source of college ranking news (that is, their opinion is undue). The same goes for others; I don't see why an award given out by a financial institution (TIAA-CREF) has merit here.

Let me summarize the above in a list: Qwyrxian (talk) 05:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) What we include cannot be a copy of other material; it must be in our own words.
 * 2) We must verify these awards with reliable sources, not just the college's own website
 * 3) We must include only the awards that are very notable; listing every award is a kind of promotion and not allowed.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060209224821/http://www.rre.com:80/senioradvisors.cfm to http://www.rre.com/senioradvisors.cfm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20040412225608/http://www.geo.tv:80/anniversary/1st/english/page4.htm to http://www.geo.tv/anniversary/1st/english/page4.htm

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110725030022/http://www.babsonrugby.org/tradition/demello_challenge.php to http://www.babsonrugby.org/tradition/demello_challenge.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110613050050/http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100209foxwoods_hires_bernard_lee_as_official_poker_spokesman/ to http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100209foxwoods_hires_bernard_lee_as_official_poker_spokesman/

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External links modified
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"Most prestigious entrepreneurship college in the United States"
An editor is insisting that the lede of this article include the statement "and it is often ranked the most prestigious entrepreneurship college in the United States. " The statement may be true but the cited sources do not support it. More specifically, those sources do support that the college was highly ranked once by those specific systems but they don't support that the college is "often ranked." To support that statement, we need a source (independent of the college itself) that explicitly makes that claim. Otherwise it's original research. ElKevbo (talk) 14:11, 1 September 2019 (UTC)