Talk:Baby Face Nelson

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Redirects: George Nelson, Lester M. Gillis, Lester Gillis, Joseph Lester Gillis

Added redirect, as another article links to Joseph Lester Gillis. --TheSock 21:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Manic depression?
Is it true that he suffered from manic depression as portrayed in the Coen Bros. film?
 * Don't take his portrayal in O Brother, Where Art Thou too literally. The Coen brothers' films are usually (especially in this case) allegorical comedies and not meant to be taken too straight. Martyn Smith 18:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Number of Agents Killed?
So, just how many FBI agents did Nelson end up killing? The article mentions only 2 agents, but claims he killed a record number. In fact, going by this article, Nelson killed only 3 people in his entire career. Can someone put up more information that's less sympathetic to him? CFLeon 07:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the statement, as I seriously doubt that he killed more federal agents than the 125 killed by the hijackers of American Airlines Flight 77. Nyttend (talk) 12:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

American Airlines Flight 77 didn't kill 125 F.B.I. agents. The crash into the Pentagon killed 125 people who worked there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.166.35 (talk) 22:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC) 55 were military personnel and 70 were civilians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.166.35 (talk) 22:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Nelson killed three agents: Carter Baum (at Little Bohemia), Herman Hollis, and Sam Cowley (at Barrington). Joe Suggs (talk) 08:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

O Brother, Where Art Thou?
According to the Dramatis Personae of the film it seems the Coen brothers cast the character as Baby Face Nelson himself; while not being historically accurate to the real criminal's life, it was not simply a different George Nelson who robbed banks and despised being confused with the Baby Face Nelson. Am I mistaken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.179.25 (talk) 06:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you're correct! It was pure (and great) comedy, with no attempt at anything remotely factual.Joe Suggs (talk) 09:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Barrington Revised
There were several facts that were wrong in the article and several missing facts I felt were important and should have been included. These changes have been made, and I've also changed some of the writing styles in the article (more of a narrative style, now). VonV (talk) 06:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

George
There is a strangely placed "George" in the first line and no further mention. Who called him George ? -- Beardo (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It should have been included in quotes in his name, it was what he was called by his family, much like my now-deceased uncle, John, was called "Buster" and then just "Bus" by our family. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, his family seems to have called him "Les"- his real name was Lester J. Gillis. During his first adult criminal period, he adopted the alias "George Nelson". He was dubbed "Baby Face" (more or less) by the press around this time after being called that or described that way by witnesses. After escaping prison, and later during his Dillinger period, etc. he often used aliases such as "Jimmie Burnett", "Jimmie Williams", etc. Most of his criminal associates after his escape knew him as "Jimmie". Joe Suggs (talk) 09:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Killed 12 Law Enforcement Officers
I have again deleted the "killing more than a dozen law officers," statement. The NY Times article it lists as a source actually says, "Clyde Barrow and Baby Face Nelson alone murdered more than a dozen law officers." This is a poorly worded sentence since the Barrow gang itself is credited with killing 12 law enforcement officers and Nelson killed another 3 FBI agents. I also deleted the "enjoyed hunting law enforcement officers from a list he kept of their vehicle information" because it is not in the article and has no source.--TL36 (talk) 02:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)--TL36 (talk) 02:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why the sentence itself can't be reworded and the source still used. We don't often have accessible headlines from that era available to us, and it certainly can be used. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with the sentence is it makes it seem like Barrow and Nelson were robbing banks together like Bonny and Clyde(aka the Barrow gang)when they never even met. It was misleading in the NY Times and it's misleading in Wikipedia. Nelson is known for robbing banks with Dillinger and killing more FBI agents than any other criminal. The latter was in this piece but has twice been deleted. Besides the two FBI agents killed at Barrington, the third agent was killed at Little Bohemia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TL36 (talk • contribs) 07:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Then word it in a way that makes it read to your satisfaction. However, there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Fix how it reads instead of just deleting it. Meanwhile, the addition you made was reverted for a couple reasons. You put in the article, and also stated here, that Nelson killed three FBI agents, but you didn't give a source for that and used what is referred to as weasel wording by saying it was written but didn't show who did that. The New York Times article does not say who killed the FBI agent at Little Bohemia. You also put the statement that he kept a list of vehicles in front of the citation to the New York Times, but then as you noted later, took it out because it wasn't in the cite given. It's all about referencing as well as wording. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

(1) Nelson's identification for the killing of Carter Baum at Little Bohemia (which I've never seen questioned) is based on numerous and very detailed surviving eyewitness testimony, the fact that Nelson was the only one of the Little Bohemia fugitives anywhere near the right area by that time (he had become separated from Dillinger and the others and was alone and moving in the opposite direction), Nelson's own alleged admission to and description of the event to numerous acquaintances who reported his version (he is quoted as having said that Baum had the drop on him and should have killed him, but his gun jammed- which tallies with other accounts, though in fact Baum's unfired weapon was found to have the safety still on), and the highly unusual custom-made weapon with which the murder was committed- a converted machine-gun pistol he commissioned and purchased in San Antonio, Texas from Hyman Lebman. Nelson also purchased an identical one for Dillinger, and it was recovered from Dillinger's room at Little Bohemia and ultimately traced to Lebman.

(2) I agree with the other poster here that the Barrow sentence is confusing and troubling. There isn't much of a baby to save in that particular bathwater, since information about Clyde Barrow is inessential (at best) to any article about Nelson. Suffice it to say that Nelson killed three agents (and probably several other people, including a witness against criminal associates of his in Nevada). Personally, I say leave the Barrow information to the Clyde Barrow page. But I'm not going to meddle in it.

(3) The unsourced quote, to me (I also agree with the earlier poster who made this point), is that Nelson "enjoyed hunting law enforcement officers from a list he kept of their vehicle information he compiled to actively hunt them at every opportunity". I won't go as far as to say that this is inaccurate, but it certainly needs a citation, especially since I don't know of any documented instances (much less "every opportunity") of Nelson "hunting" Federal agents (unless one stretches a point and says that Barrington was an instance of this). He did record a license plate on at least one instance when it was made known to him, for whatever reason, and he certainly made threats against agents- especially those he felt had abused his wife when she was in custody.

Nonetheless, I left it as it was.

Nelson is a widely misunderstood character- mainly just oversimplified due to lack of good information- and has never been written about nearly as thoroughly as Dillinger until recently. There's also a ton of misinformation floating around about him, such as the mythical Capone connection and the seventeen death wounds. But with some good work this page will go a ways to set all that as straight as possible. Joe Suggs (talk) 09:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Belgium?
This biography lists Baby Face Nelson as being the son of Belgian immigrants, which is completely incorrect. Gillis is not a Belgian name, it is Scottish and his parents immigrated to the US from Nova Scotia, Canada. Even one of the external links notes the correctly that his father was from Margaree, NS. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/outlaws/nelson/1.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.127.188 (talk) 18:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, so you said when you changed it in the article. However, it certainly isn't clear that trutv is reliably sourced - it isn't clear at all from where they got their information. After you changed it, I immediately searched in biographies written and published by reliable third party publishers and it does not say Nelson's parents were from Nova Scotia, nor that they were Highland Scots. The source is quite clear and cited in the article about his parents' heritage. His mother's birth name was Marie Douget. Gillis may be a name used in Scotland, but it does not mean that Gillis/Gilles could not be a name of French/Belgian origin as well. In fact, the name Gillis ultimately has roots in Ancient Greece and then France, is a short form of "Aegidius", and came from St. Giles. You can read all about that here and here. Didn't it strike you as strange that while trutv was asserting Scottish heritage, it also was asserting his father's first name was Josef and that his mother tutored children in French? Please look at the links provided as sourcing in the article. Just because trutv says something does not make it correct. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually that wasn't me (the above commenter) who changed the article. I simply added a comment here to discuss the issue.First off, the links you gave me are for the wrong surname. In North America, Gillis is often an alternate spelling of Gillies, which is Gaelic in origin, coming from "Mac gill Iosa". No relation to Greek. Douget is an Acadian surname, and there are many French speaking Acadians living in Margaree and environs. I am unsure as to why his father's name is spelled Josef, although the Gaelic form "Eosaph" would be pronounced the same. All references to Nelson's Belgian ancestry, come from the Nickel and Helmer biography. In fact most of the article is sourced to that book. I am unable to check where they got their information as I do not own a copy. My knowledge comes from genological research of my own family, as I am also a Gillies in Cape Breton. However it is strange that there are only two sources for all claims about Nelson's ancestry. One is the book, and the other is that website.
 * I'm not sure what point you're making. There is no source other than trutv, which is not considered a reliable source, given for the name's origins, but the origins of the name isn't what is at issue. At some point, almost everyone on this continent has roots from somewhere else, a huge number from the European continent. I didn't give you the "wrong" links, I gave links for the origins of the name as it pertains to France and Belgium because the person who originally changed the background of Nelson's parents changed it to Scotland from Belgium because trutv said so. It also doesn't mean the Gillis name didn't come from Belgium, given the source and the other indications that Gillis is a name that exists in France and Belgium. It isn't given to prove Gillis/Nelson's roots, it is only given to show that it could be. Trutv wouldn't be a reliably published third party source. Without contrary sources that contradict the one being given, it isn't possible to initiate a change from the source to one based on anyone else's personal genealogical research. That the article isn't currently multiply sourced for each fact doesn't negate what the present source says. That's the issue. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Robbery spree ended 2 years before first robbery.
Quoting from the article: "Nelson's robbery spree came to an end when he was arrested in 1931."

Later in the same paragraph:

"Nelson robbed his first bank in Grand Haven, Michigan on August 18, 1933."

Huh? ?Preceding unsigned comment added by Gredw (talk ? contribs) 21:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It isn't contradictory. A petty robbery career was halted when he was arrested and went to prison. When he got out, he started robbing banks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Except there's no mention of any previous "robbery spree" -- only of petty theft. The phrase "Nelson's robbery spree" (to me) is a reference to something the reader is supposed to know about, but it's something that hasn't ever been mentioned in the article. Maybe it just me, but it doesn't read very well the way it is. When I got to the phrase "Nelson's robbery spree" I was confused. No robberies had yet been mentioned, and the first robbery that _is_ mentioned in the article is two years later.

I'm not saying that there _wasn't_ a previous "robbery spree" that didn't involve banks, just that it's confusing to the reader when the first mention of somthing in the article is to state that it was ended.

Video move
I have moved the video, it is squishing the two columns of the reference section. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 09:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Timeline Problem
In the following paragraph from the article:

''On April 21, 1930, Nelson robbed his first bank, making off with $4,000. A month later, Nelson and his gang pulled their home invasion scheme again, netting $25,000 worth of jewels. On October 3 of that year, Nelson hit the Itasca State Bank for $4,600; a teller later identified Nelson as one of the robbers. Three nights later, Nelson stole the jewelry of the wife of Chicago mayor Big Bill Thompson, valued at $18,000. She later described her attacker this way, He had a baby face. He was good looking, hardly more than a boy, had dark hair and was wearing a gray topcoat and a brown felt hat, turned down brim."[8] Years later, Nelson and his crew were linked to a botched roadhouse robbery in Summit, Illinois on November 23, 1930 that resulted in gunplay that left three people dead and three others wounded. Three nights later, the Tape Bandits hit a Waukegan Road tavern, and Nelson ended up committing his first murder of note, when he killed stockbroker Edwin R. Thompson''

The "Years later" doesn't add up with the later date of 23 Nov 1930. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.176.153 (talk) 08:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Nelson and his crew were supposed to have robbed the Hillside State Bank in Hillside, IL, on November 22, 1930. They robbed this roadhouse the next night? James Galloway (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Bank Robbery
"On April 21, 1930, Nelson robbed his first bank, making off with approximately $4,000" A search of the Internet turns up nothing but variations on this line, so this was probably the source. There is no mention of this robbery in Baby Face Nelson: Portrait of a Public Enemy, a fairly detailed biography of the man, which leads me to believe the information is false. James Galloway (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Ballistic Trauma
If it says he died from "Gunshot Wounds", is there any reason to add on "Ballistic Trauma" also? How about "Rapid Lead Poisoning"? I will edit it out unless somebody sees a specific need for it... Msjayhawk (talk) 17:47, 21 May 2019 (UTC)