Talk:Babylon 5 Collectible Card Game

Untitled
I dropped out of ccg-ing ages ago, but I could swear that one of the gaming magazines (Wizard's version, IRRC), sometime within the past year or two had an article wherein they rated their top-five all time favorite games, and the B5 ccg came in either first or second. If anyone can find, or knows, of the issue number and how B5 fared, an addition to this article would be dandy. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson 23:45, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Stand-Alone Vorlons vs Shadows Game
Just before Precedence lost the license to produce the B5 CCG, they were working on a stand-alone, two-player game that would allow players to represent either the Vorlons or the Shadows, in a grand conflict for control of the galaxy. This game was still in development but had been produced in demo form and playtested at the major gaming conventions, according to second-hand reports. It was to come out at the same time as the CRUSADE expansion, originally, then was pushed back to the time of the ANLA'SHOK expansion (which was never officially released), and then was cancelled. I do not recall the name of this stand-alone game, but it was something like THE GREAT WAR (though that was the name of one of the B5 CCG expansions, so it might have been something else, similar to that). 65.87.33.13 01:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not aware of this at all and I was one of the people working on the Anla'shok expansion before Precedence lost the license. It may have been a top-secret Precedence project but at that point they essentially had only 2 people working on game design (Mike Hummel and Kevin Tewart) and they were flat out on Wheel of Time, Tomb Raider and Rifts. All in all, it seems highly unlikely that there was a stand-alone game being designed. You might be confusing it with the B5 customisable map game which did allow Shadow and Vorlon players but that was an entirely different game company. I have a vague memory that they were planning on doing some sort of reboot of that game. If anyone knows different, however, it would be great to get info. Bruce Mason 09:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Problems
This article is quite simply full of holes, generalisations and vague statements. It appears to have been written by someone who has never played. I used to be a rep (known as Rangers after the organisation in the show) for this game before its demise, but as I'm new to Wiki I'm loathe to randomly wander in and start changing things in case I delete the whole thing....

At first glance I spotted the following:

"The Vorlons and Shadows, although not a playable race in their own right, are available as supporting characters and fleets, as are Babylon 5, the Drakh and the Interstellar Alliance."

The Drakh are a seperate case to B5 or the ISA. A player can become a Drakh Faction and completely remove all characters of his former faction if he chooses. Likewise the ISA is different to B5 as it is player formed coalition unlike B5 which is similar to the Vorlons and Shadows.

"The object of the game is to use various agendas, events and conflict cards to build power and influence points for your faction."

The object of the game is to win. You can build all the power and influence you'd like, it doesn't mean anything without being ableto win with it.

"Actions in the game have to be carried out by the characters that you control, for example if you only have one character in play you can only initiate one action per turn. Unless otherwise stated, Characters can only perform one action per turn. "

Actions in the game do not have to be performed by characters and the amount of actions you have is in no way dependant on your number of characters. Characters may perform as many actions as they are allowed to until they are forced to rotate. And even then they are able to continue to perform other actions if so permitted. The article misleads.

'''"Each player begins with a starting hand which includes their Ambassador and 3 other cards of the players choice, a draw deck of cards (45 or more) and 4 influence points. " ''' The article is using a blanket statement based on basic rules. All factions may have at least an extra card in their hand (A Crusade...), the Non-Aligned Faction starts with another card automatically, although this card's type is restricted, and certain cards completely alter the entire dynamic of the starting hand (Londo Mollari - Gambler - No cards in your starting hand, begin the game with seven influence, and other conditions regarding influence gain).

"Each player takes it in turns to initiate conflicts and spend influence points to bring different cards in their hand into play, then uses those cards to try and either build up more influence for themeselves or prevent other players from building up influence. When everyone has done everything they want to do, any conflicts in play are resolved, points are allocated and players have the opportunity to play Aftermath cards. Finally, all players draw a card from their draw deck and take it into their hand."

This section is incredibly vague and misleading for a new player.

"Play continues in this manner until one player either reaches 20 power/influence points or fulfills a specific game-winning criteria."

Incorrect.

"Premier The Shadows Deluxe The Great War Psi Corps Severed Dreams Wheel of Fire Crusade"

I'd say that the unreleased Collector's Set be added with the notation that it was unreleased although Precedence did preview the entire set which is now archived with images at Vorlon Space.

"Aftermath Cards which are played at the end of the round by any players who won a conflict. Aftermaths can be played either on yourself to raise your own cards abilities, or on your opponents cards to lower their abilities"'' Aftermaths can be played by anyone regardless of whether they won or lost the conflict and on anyone who fits the criteria.

"Agenda These cards often contain text stipulating what a player must achieve to win the game. They also grant bonuses to your own cards, for example giving characters a stat bonus or increasing the strength of a players fleets"

Again hopelessly vague.

"Character Each card features a character from the TV series and includes a short explanation of what the character can do in the game as well as a side bar indicating what stats they possess. A characters stats are based on 4 values - Diplomacy, Intrigue, Psi, and Leadership. The main character in a deck is known as the Ambassador, and acts as the players avatar in the game."

Certain characters can make used of all FIVE stats available in the game.

"Conflict  Conflicts are the main way in which players build up influence points. At the start of the round, Players can declare a conflict either on one of their opponents or (if the card allows) on themselves. There are 4 main types - Diplomacy, Intrigue, Psi and Military. Each conflict can only be supported or opposed using it's specified stat ie: Diplomacy conflicts use a characters Diplomacy stat. Military conflicts can only be supported by Fleets."

There are only five stats in the game, '4 main types' is a bit redundant. Conflicts may be supported by any ability that the rules or another card allows, not just the ability of the conflict type.

"Enhancement Improves a targeted card of the specified type, usually with a stat bonus. Most cards that remain in play (characters, agendas, fleets etc) can be enhanced."

Any card (including other Enhancements) can actually be enhanced, depending on the Enhancement.

"Event Can be played at any time during the round, by any player. Event cards are usually played in order to disrupt an opponents current playing strategy or enhance your own."

Events may only be played during the Action Round, and only when it is your action.

"Fleet Military conflicts can only be initiated by an available Fleet card. Fleets, like characters, can also be used to target an opponents fleets and characters in order to try and damage them, impairing their abilities or removing them from play." I'm rapidly running out of adjectives for wrong. Standard Military conflicts may be initiated regardless of whether or not you have a Fleet in play.

"Location Locations are planets or space lanes that grant bonuses to the faction as a whole. For example, Homeworld locations can be used to double the amount of influence gained from winning a conflict. " Only five homworlds in the game alter the amount of influence gained from a conflict, and then it only adds one influence, not doubles it. The others have different effects.

This is only what I've managed to see on my first glance but I think i've made my point. This article should be made accurate, any new player (and they still happen even though the game is six years out of print) would be utterly confused by this article. I don't believe the article should be a copy of the rulebook or a tactics and play guide, but it should have all the errors removed and reworked to be an accurate piece on the game.

If I can workout how I'll move this into the B5 project as well.....

Iscariot Ex Machina 17:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Year released
What year was the game first released in? My premier cards say @ 1997 so I'd presume that's the year of the game's release... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just checked mine and have to agree, the Premier edition cards are marked 1997, and that was the first set released. -- Iscariot (talk) 09:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

World Champion dispute
This page appears to be under attack by a vandal that is out to discredit the current world champion of Babylon 5, Stephen Sawka, and attach his own name to wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiroth (talk • contribs) 01:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * User:Tiroth... You have engaged in section blanking, edit warring, and a personal attack that I personally warned you for. You are equally guilty here.  The pair of you have a difference of opinion, it is solved with discussion... not this silliness.  Here is the reality... if you can source it and it is notable... then it can go here... It appears that there have been only two sanctioned world tournaments (by the publishing company) and a series of unsanctioned ones held by B5 fans until 2012... if you can provided proper sources, establishing notability of the event, then it can certainly be added... but if not, leave it off until you can find some.  Either way, stop the edit warring or both of you will find yourselves banned from Wikipedia if you both haven't already done enough to get that distinction.  DMighton (talk) 05:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

-:User:Tiroth... I initially undid your first addition to the Babylon 5 Collectible Card Game page as I knew for a fact it was an incorrect statement. I attempted to make it clear that there were only two sanctioned World Championships that ever happened in the history of the game but you continued to revert the changes. I commented that you were vandalizing the page yet you continued to revert the changes. I then attempted to add the actual facts that only two World Championships were ever conducted and you removed the addition claiming it was irrelevant. DMighton attempted to undo the vandalism you did yet you claimed he vandalized your revision. I proceeded to add a warning to your contributions page regarding your vandalizing of this page. I then proceeded to give a detailed account of the two sanctioned tournaments in question. You then bombarded that with unnecessary citation requests. Again Dmighton stepped in and made the necessary corrections and brought your ten citation requests down to four. The citations for three were added and due to the fact the fourth could not, the sentence was reworded accordingly. Yet you continued to request citations for something that never existed. I decided to stop the shenanigans stating I was done editing the page but you insisted on stating that you would report me for vandalism should I continue to bloat the page with irrelevant information. It is because of this exact situation that students must back up their sources whenever they document something from Wikipedia. Slave1 07:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slave28 (talk • contribs)

--I don't see why the statement that there are no other reported world championships is relevant to the history of the b5 ccg. Should I go add in all the things that never happened in the world war 2 article's history? It would make that page very bloated, and that is what is happening here. How is something that didn't happen relevant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiroth (talk • contribs) 12:07, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply: First off, Tiroth, threatening to vandalize another article because you're not getting your way in this one is in of itself a violation; you may want to consider reviewing WP:POINT for a further explanation. Secondly, I don't think there's anyone who would legitimately consider the addition of a single 21-word sentence as making it "very bloated."  Thirdly, accusing another editor of vandalism for making edits you don't like (a violation of WP:AGF) is in of itself a serious offense.  Fourthly, I agree with Slave28: that there were only two sanctioned championships is a perfectly valid statement, of the sort found in articles about competitions all over Wikipedia.  If you have evidence that this is incorrect, and that there have been further sanctioned championships (as opposed to a bunch of fans getting together at a gaming convention and declaring their private tournament winner to be a "world champion"), please present the reliable sources saying so. Finally, do you have any interest you'd like to disclose?  Adding this 2012 "championship" and the edit war following is your only Wikipedia activity in the last several years.   Ravenswing   13:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I was not threatening to vandalize world war 2's article, I was using a rhetorical device to show how ridiculous it is that we should mention things that have not happened in the history section of a Wikipedia article. Maybe you can become familiar with the last section of WP:POINT yourself. As for a sentence not making it bloated, there are a lot of possible sentences that could technically maybe be "useful" like that statement. If we added them all nobody would bother to read the now pointless section. It is vandalism to continue to add an unsourced sentence that has adds nothing to the article. The user appears to be editing the page in order to "win" some childish argument rather than to improve the article. In your user page you also state that "I care strongly about documentation. If you assert it, you should be prepared to back it up, with a non-Wikipedia verifiable source. If you can't, you should retract it." I see no documentation for this claim, so by your logic it should be retracted. If it is impossible to back it up, then it shouldn't be here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiroth (talk • contribs) 14:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Again, you need to read WP:AGF and assume good faith. You seem to be taking this whole thing personally, please also read WP:STICK.  DMighton (talk) 17:44, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

-:User:Tiroth... My addition of the line "There has been no documented history of any other World Championships being held after the one in Aachen, Germany in 1999." was clearly meant to showcase that the game had lost most of its appeal once it was no longer in production. Although no reference was made, there is evidence that there was no more World Championships. You may wish to join the Babylon 5 CCG Yahoo Group and view there complete chat log history. I saw no mention there of the one you initially added where Stephen Sawka was crowned champion. That reference was not included as I did not believe it fit the appropriate criteria for Wikipedia, but it does prove that fact nonetheless. Slave28 — Preceding undated comment added 20:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

You said the following above: """My addition of the line "There has been no documented history of any other World Championships being held after the one in Aachen, Germany in 1999." was clearly meant to showcase that the game had lost most of its appeal once it was no longer in production.""" Perhaps we can reach an agreement to replace it with a statement that more clearly communicats what you intended it to showcase? Something more along the lines of "After Precendence lost the rights to the Babylon 5 CCG, appeal for the game fell due to lack of production". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiroth (talk • contribs) 23:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

-:User:Tiroth... I also had that included as part of my revision when you claimed my initial posting “The provided citation does not support the statement” (see revision dated 03:34, 10 July 2014). It was at this point where things began escalating and I had to step away from the situation. I stand by the statement that is there, if you wish, I would be more then happy to see it returned to its original state before you changed it, where it stated “There has been no record of any other World Championships being held after the one in Aachen, Germany in 1999, and with Warner Brothers pulling the Babylon 5 licensing agreement deal away from Precedence interest in the game fell drastically.” The citation in the first paragraph of the History section will cover this fact as it contains a statement from Precedence Publishing. Slave1 00:43, 11 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slave28 (talk • contribs)

I think you misunderstood my point. You said that the sole reason that the statement "there are no other recorded world championships etc." is to show that there was a decrease in interest in the game. Since you said that is the reason that sentence is here, I feel we can more accurately convey that by changing it to actually say something like that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.225.148 (talk) 00:55, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

-:User:Tiroth... Then in that case the addition I made to the page "Only two World Championships were ever conducted for the Babylon 5 CCG during it's brief existence." was quite accurate when you removed it stating it was "Irrelevant information". Now since this seems to be the direction in which you wish to pursue the matter I would be all too happy to switch both statements as it would still clearly indicate that there has been no other tournaments since the one held in Germany in 1999. --Slave1 01:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slave28 (talk • contribs) -Revision was done on 00:51, 10 July 2014--Slave1 01:17, 11 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slave28 (talk • contribs)

I still believe it is irrelevant, but it is more relevant than the current statement. Change it to no "tournaments officially sanctioned by Precedence Publishing" and I will be fine with it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.225.148 (talk) 01:31, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

-:User:Tiroth... The changes you agreed upon have been made. This issue appears to now be resolved. --Slave1 01:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slave28 (talk • contribs)


 * Thanks guys, I am glad this could be solved amicably. DMighton (talk) 06:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * DMighton, Ravenswing, it appears Tiroth is once again editing this article in bad faith. I don't want to get caught up in an edit war again. --&#91;&#91;User talk: Slave28&#124;♪ℓ☮⚔☭ⅩⅩⅧ&#93;&#93; (talk) 17:55, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Tiroth Has been banned indefinitely for WP:SOCK, []. Any further edits regarding the above discussed subject matter will be removed or deleted. --&#91;&#91;User talk: Slave28&#124;♪ℓ☮⚔☭ⅩⅩⅧ&#93;&#93; (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Sadly, the B5 CCG page is now an incoherent shambles
No one needs a distillation of the rules of the game.

Deleting of the factual information about signed & chase cards seems pointless.

Contributions from past Rangers and leading players have been ignored or destroyed.

I'd really like to know who's hacking the crap out of this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.195.25.51 (talk) 03:18, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Once again the garbage about the self-proclaimed "current world champion" has returned to the page (and been deleted). There were only 2 World Championships - a game involving 5 people in someone's house doesn't count for anything. If this player wishes to come to GenCon 2018 the we can discuss his status in the game further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.195.71.43 (talk) 23:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

And still a mis-guided mod restores the garbage to this page.

If you have no knowledge of the facts then you shouldn't be moderating this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.229.97 (talk) 19:40, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I actually checked and saw this has been going on for 4 years. I think it's gone too long. I apologize and will stop the war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.111.111.153 (talk) 20:04, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

1st, I'm a former Ranger & play-tester of the game and am in the pic of the 2nd World Championship. I count many of the former Rangers, Precedence Game Designers and the organised play director as personal friends. Would you like further proof of my credibility?

I apologize that my previous edit was unregistered - I was pissed that this crap about the fictitious 3rd world championship had resurfaced on this page again!

and just so everyone on here knows, I took time out at GenCon 2018 this year to meet and talk with Stephen Sawka to discuss this topic and he is embarrassed that this individual keeps posting this stuff here. Yes, embarrassed. He's even told this poster to stop.

I would suggest that updates to this page are first run by someone close to the game - a Ranger or one of the former Precedence staff - before more mis-informed, inaccurate or flat out bogus information gets written on this public forum.

Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeamPump (talk • contribs) 04:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Update to this page
Any objections to me updating this page over the holiday period? TeamPump (talk) 07:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Update with sources! Leitmotiv (talk) 08:27, 11 December 2018 (UTC)