Talk:Bactrian Gold

Merge
This section is to discuss the merger of Tillia tepe and Bactrian Gold.

The articles essentially cover the same thing. It is confusing for the reader to have to look at two article which overlap in content, and confusing for editors to try and separate what is allowed to be discussed between the two articles. They should be a single article, it provides richer context. I suggested the main article be called Bactrian Gold since that is what most people know it by in English speaking countries, but open to other suggestions. -- Stbalbach 19:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Support - no-brainer, but other article's content is certainly the better; more on recovery would be good Johnbod 22:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Tillia tepe being the name of a place and an archaeological site, I guess it should be able to stand in its own right. Bactrian Gold may be the article under which the treasure is actually described though, justifying some tansfer of information from one article to the other. PHG 07:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's really confusing having separate articles. Look at Sutton Hoo for example - it is a single article about the place, dig site and treasure. I'm sure there other examples on Wikipedia. If we keep Tillia tepe, we probably should move the content from Bactrian Gold and redirect Bactrian Gold to Tillia tepe. Is that a merge you would support? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. It looks like "Bactrian Gold"/"Treasure" could be a paragraph within Tillia tepe, rather than the other way around, in a way similar to Sutton Hoo indeed. PHG 05:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Great, that looks the way to go. -- Stbalbach 16:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it makes the most sense. Roland Woodruff 15:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose - I agree with PHG. Tilla Teppe is the name of an notable archeological location in Afghanistan. Also the site at Tilla Teppe contained a lot more than just gold pieces, just as did other notable Bactrian archeological sites such as Ai-Khanoum or Takht-i-Sangin in Tajikistan. These were entire cities with buildings that contained thousands of different types of daily objects. I've seen the Takht-i-Sangin collection in the museum in Dushanbe and I've been to the archeological finds at Panjakent and there were jewels found at both of these places too, including gold, but to reduce these locations, or Tilla Teppe, to merely "Bactrian Gold" is a bit ridiculous. Bactrian Gold metalwork is a type of art work from the country of Bactria, which spanned hundreds of years. The more logical solution is to upgrade the Bactrian Gold Article.

As for the Sutton Hoo article, that appears to be one site in one country so it's logical to have a single article. Bactrian treasures span centuries and are found at numerous sites in separate countries. Putting all the Bactrian gold sites under one page in wikipedia would be like taking sites from all of Assyria or ancient Egypt and putting them under one page. --David Straub 11:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment I supported above the original suggestion above, but in view of subsequent contributions am switching to support the merged title "Tilla Tepe". I don't support a continued article called "Bactrian gold"; more general treasure stuff should be in articles on the cultures concerned. We don't have articles called Assyrian gold, Roman gold etc I think.


 * David Straub: As you oppose the merge, please clarify what you think should be in this article after all its content has been merged to TT Johnbod 14:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm responding to the above and below comments. First, if "Bactrian Gold" is a phrase reserved specifically for the Tillia tepe site, then what do you call golden Bactrian objects found at Ai-Khanoum in northern Afghanistan or Takht-i-Sangin in Tajikistan? Also, I don't think the treasures from Tillia tepe can be categorized like the Oxus Treasure because the later was as notable for its mysterious origins and the century long hunt it spawned as it was for the actual objects themselves.


 * Maybe it makes more sense to have an article on "Bactrian Art" or "Bactrian Treasure", separate from Tillia tepe, that covers the entire range of artifacts found at historical Bactrian sites. --David Straub 14:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment - "Bacterian Gold" or "Bacterian Treasure" is an idiomatic phrase commonly used to refer specifically to the treasure horde found at Tilla Teppe. Google and news searches shows how common it is. David Straub's comment is the first I've heard that this phrase used more widely as "art work from the country of Bactria". Wouldn't that be Bactria art? It may be confusion between scholarly usage and popular usage, not sure. -- Stbalbach 16:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment - I think that the article on Bactrian Gold should be merged into the article on Tillia tepe for many reasons including the fact that the finds differ in many respects from early and later gold artifacts found in Bactria - particularly later Kushan material, and the possibility that it may be confused with the so-called "Oxus Treasure" which, according to recent research, seems to be a collection of mainly fakes, whereas the Tillia tepe artifacts were properly provenanced during archaeological excavations. For information on the forgeries in the Oxus Treasure, see Muscarella, Oscar White. 2003. "Museum Constructions of the Oxus Treasures: Forgeries of Provenience and Ancient Culture." Ancient Civilizations 9, 3-4, pp. 259-275. If an article on "Bactrian Gold is to be kept it should deal with the whole range of gold artifacts reported from ancient Bactria and surrounds - not just those of Tillia tepe.John Hill 08:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind that "Bactrian gold" can be a redirect to TT if it is not an article itself - in view of Stbalbach's comments above this would still be useful Johnbod 15:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Picking up David Straub's comment above, this article begins: "Bactrian Treasure (also known as the Bactrian Gold) is a treasure cache that lay dormant under the "Hill of Gold" (or "Golden Hill"), or Tillia tepe....". So this is clear duplication; you have not answered my question above about what would be left after ALL the content here, which all relates to TT, goes there! Obviously, Ai-Khanoum already has its own article & Takht-i-Sangin could have. Or if someone wrote an article about general Bactrian art/gold/metalwork then that would be fine, but there is no sign of this happening. Meanwhile we have two articles covering identical ground, of which the other seems generally fuller.  Johnbod 22:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * QUESTION Is there any objection to merging this article into the TT article? That seemed like the consensus above but wanted to make sure. -- Stbalbach 15:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge finally done. Johnbod (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2014 (UTC)