Talk:Bad trip

Untitled
Changed psychotropic to hallucinogenic. I've never heard anyone use the expression Bad Trip without referring to a psychedelic trip. Also removed homocidal ideation since that's a pretty strong claim, and I doubt there's any evidence that it's common. 80.203.115.12 10:09, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * yes i like psychedelic crisis cause u can alway get get out of it during the actual trip if u get your mind back on track cause a crisis is a period of time of terror or destruction when to me a bad trip is where ur permentaly triping and u constanly battle flashbacks and when u batle flashbacks u go insan well atleast i do. but when i face a psychedelic crisis i am not on terms with reality for the next week or so kind of like im still in the trip without the visual effects. And also yes "bad trips" or psychedelic crisises causegreat depression.


 * I don't mind those changes, but the term "bad trip" is certainly used to describe things other than hallucinogenic experiences. And of course one may become homicidal: one can reach far-flung reaches of psychotic processing where killing becomes an only option, for instance, or where one doesn't comprehend that the actions they are performing amount to killing. "Bad trip" might be used to describe such situations in an artwork, such as many drug-less stories by Kafka, movies by David Lynch, episodes from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, or Don Hertzfeldt's animations. --Tarnas 06:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Tarnas: What you are talking about are similes. When someone tells you "work is hell" they don't literally mean that fire and brimstone are under the desk.  They mean it's bad LIKE hell.  When they say "Blue Velvet, it's a bad trip man", they mean its LIKE a bad psychedelic experience.


 * I agree with Tarnas...I think Psychedelic Crisis is a much better title. Although most people will understand what it means, Psychedelic Crisis means only one thing for certain, and sounds much more professional.  "Bad Trip" sounds childlike.  It's slang.  - Crh0872 23:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

valium anyone?
I've also heard that benzodiazapines such as valium can take the edge off a bad trip. I've heard conflicting reports regarding antipsychotics207.157.121.50 08:09bb, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Antipsychotics will work for some hallucinogenic drugs (LSD, psilocybin) but not for others (PCP. Ketamine). I'll add it to the article.

I've heard the same thing as the first person. Antipsychotics interact with the dopamine pathway. Although protocal calls for use of antipsychotics, monitoring and "talking down" work better. Unfortunately, I don't have a source to back that up. As for Valium, I've heard the same thing, but among experienced trippers in forums. I'd figure it would be much more effective. Valium is also listed on wikipedia (with supporting citations) as used for overdose of stimulants and hallucinagens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.225.216 (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Misnomer
I suggest renaming this article Difficult trip since the concept of "bad trip" has more do to with ignorance of the tripper and inappropriate expectations of the trip experience that with some self-existent category of psychedelic experience. Haiduc 15:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Marijuana bad trips
Anybody can cite that? IMO marijuana bad trip can occur with a heavy overdose... marijuana can have hallucinogenic effects actually... --ha-core 07:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I would also agree that in high doses marijuana is clearly hallucinogenic and can cause bad trips. The Effects of Cannabis section appears to be entirely POV. --Pappa 10:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, reading over the section again, I think it really should be removed altogether. The remarks are uncited POV which seem to be based on the mistaken assumption that cannabis is not hallucinogenic. Thoughts? --Pappa 11:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Removing is usually a bad idea, editing may be more appropriate. Haiduc 11:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Marijuana in high doses is only mind numbing and disorienting. Like a wall of being stoned falling upon you. It is sedative and a little like sinus congestion. It is not hallucinogenic. Though this may be cited irrelevant, being original research. Mr.troughton (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Marijuana is psychedelic/hallucinogenic. It's cool if for you it isn't, and it if sedates you, but these effects aren't common. There are also people reporting being stimulated by it, but most commonly marijuana is psychedelic. Also, bad trips on marijuana are very possible, and can be at least as bad as bad trips on psychedelics like LSD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.159.14 (talk) 03:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
 * This all sounds like a whole lot of non-cited opinion to me. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 04:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * No matter what you perceive, there’s truth to it. As an occasional cannabis user, I can confirm the hallucinogenic effect of this substance even though it has only happened twice or thrice in more than one and a half decades. That includes what I would consider quite a bad trip, I had a friend who could confirm I was in a very weird state. I can’t compare to any other substances though.
 * I can also confirm both the sedating and the stimulating effects, depending both on who you are (which shouldn’t come as a surprise) and which of the many sorts were part of your joint, biscuits, or whatever else. I hardly read any books about cannabis (and that was a long time ago) but I saw a French show called High et fines herbes (YouTube channel Caballero & JeanJass) where the latter point is mentioned when they talk about what they shall consume. For those who don’t speak French, the name is a play on the French pronunciation making ‘high’ sound like ail /aj/ (garlic). See also fines herbes. So it should be obvious that it’s about cooking and, well, you know. --2003:F5:FF1C:E900:DD03:DDB7:CC8C:942 (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Depression/Sadness
I'm a psychologist-to-be (still in grad school) but one of the first-day, only-idiots-say-this things they drill into your head is the distinction between depression and sadness: depression is a medical condition, a symptom of which is sadness. Depression has a specific set of criteria, the main one of which is it must be prolonged. People who are bummed out, who say "I'm depressed" are an example of a common mixup of the two terms.. Thus, to say that a symptom of a bad trip is depression is simply wrong. I know this might sound nitpicky to people outside of psychology or the medical field, but it is one of those things that bug me. Youaredj


 * Your argument makes sense, but evidently depression within itself is it's own state (and can last long or short), as opposed to clinical depression (which I believe is what you are referring to). So I suppose it would be incorrect to rename the symptom to sadness. angular  ( discuss·contribs )  04:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Marijuana's effect on the trip
"marijuana should not be used while under the influence of a hallucinogen especially at difficult moments, since instead of calming, it is likely to exacerbate confusion, panic and paranoia."

I don't know how true this is. Experienced cannabis users (such as myself) usually never get anxiety during smoking; It's usually just calming and relaxing. So, I think that if you don't get anxiety from it, it would only help keep the trip relaxing as well and keep you in a good mood (This is what I've always heard). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.232.78.236 (talk) 05:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

I've heard a lot of people say the same thing. But I've also heard a lot of people that it provokes anxiety. And personally, it makes me anxious as well. Keep in mind not everyone will react the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.225.216 (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

-because even for people who don't experience paranoia when smoking normally, it can precipitate bad (or even worse, if used as a means to attempt to calm a "bad trip") experiences during a trip. It's a tossup, and on a page like this it seems to be a good idea to make the suggestion against more drug use to attempt to steady an already bad experience from using drugs. Personally I think its a better idea to not try smoking as a means of calming a bad trip because I feel that a bad trip will teach you much more than any regular trip, and adding more substances as a means to calm down is unnecessary - work through your problems. As to the effects on a trip in general, I've heard that it can make things feel more speedy, contributing to the disorientation of a trip (which may or may not be a good thing). I dunno, I've not done both at the same time.

- I've got to disagree, marijuana can have a hugely negative effect on a trip, it really depends, but for me it just adds to paranoia and fear. Not good. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.32.238 (talk) 09:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm engaged in an ongoing project collecting and analysing anecdotal reports of psychedelic bad trips posted online. A significant proportion of them were caused by cannabis use. Rather than inducing the normal relaxed feel, cannabinoids can intensify the experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe5htp (talk • contribs) 09:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Marijuana can either (significantly) worsen or improve a bad trip. This mostly depends on how experienced one is. I'd say it's better to warn in the article about the negative effect of this combination, since most people are likely not "psychonauts" but only one-time experimenters. Experienced users will disregard the warning and smoke anyway, so it's still cool. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.159.14 (talk) 03:31, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Hallucinogen or psychotropic?
In the LSD article, it says that LSD is not a hallucinogen, but a psychotropic, as it does not cause true hallucinations, such as those experienced with deleriants. This article refers to a series of drugs including LSD as hallucinogens. I don't know which is right, but is this not a contradiction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by User2801 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a contradiction, the use of "hallucinogen" to describe LSD and functional analogues is incorrect. Haiduc (talk) 23:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Even though I know about the incorrectness of calling LSD a hallucinogen, it is probably better to call it as such since ~90% of old and new scientific reports classify it as such (in this case changing the name now is simply not practical). Even the most pro-psychedelics people usually call them hallucinogens when they are addressing scientific readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.159.14 (talk) 03:34, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was This article should be under "Psychedelic crisis" as that is the correct and clinical name for the experience, and all inquires for "bad trip" will automatically be redirected here anyway. The use of the slang term is not useful as it may perpetuate preconceived notions and is not accurate. Unpleasant experiences triggered by other types of drugs can be dealt with elsewhere. Haiduc (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose Use English, our articles are directed to general readers, not to specialists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose As I stated at the help desk: "Anecdotally, bad trip is the common name for the phenomenon, while psychedelic crisis is not. Google seems to confirm in spades, returning 968 results for the latter and 136,000 results for the former (other searches limited usage to drugs to avoid sentences about traveling, still return massive results). Accordingly, per Naming conventions (common names), bad trip seems to be the better title."--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Your naming conventions link was actually one of the factors which led me to follow through on this proposal. Specifically, it indicated that we should strive for precision. "Bad trip" is not a precise term, it is misleading slang which perpetuates a POV take on one of the neccessary (for many if not most people) stages of psychedelic work. As an example of how experienced psychedelic workers approach negative experiences, in the Native American Church, when a participant at a ceremony gets sick from the medicine, the road man will refer to that as "getting well" as the purging will generally cary with it a psychological component that can have a healing effect. While Google searches may well reflect the abysmal ignorance that popular culture wallows in regarding this aspect of the human mind and of spiritual work, that should not determine our method in treating the topic. Rather we should be guided by those with knowledge and experience, and use terminology which is accurate and appropriate. Haiduc (talk) 07:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Naming conventions (precision) refers to striving for the precise term people use to avoid confusion, and not to produce some idea of ideological precision imposed by us. I don't think bad trip is slang; or more precisely, it is no longer slang . Like most words, phrases and idioms, bad trip was slang at one time but once accepted and that acceptance memorialized by being entered into dictionaries (see, e.g., its entry in dictionary.com; and in Encarta, it no longer fit the definition of slang. Whether people are being imprecise because the two words commonly used to convey the concept is misleading, is neither here nor there—that's not a consideration we make and its beyond our role in general (I qualify because we do moderate for certain categories of names, such as those that tend to disparage a group of people). But we strive to follow what society has deemed the common name, rather than attempting to impose our point of view on society's manifest choice, which is shown by usage.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I am disappointed that you would resort to imputations of ideology or of imposition of my point of view. As you say yourself, we make exceptions in certain cases, and this one of those cases since the folk term is misleading and inaccurate. Let me suggest an alternative approach. Take a look at the article for weed. It seems a good analogue. It acknowledges the usage of a common descriptor with vaguely disparaging connotations, and then provides links to more accurate and unbiased terms. Why not permit both articles to exist side by side, with the more extensive, specialized material in the article on Psychedelic emergency and a brief generalized intro in the Bad trip article? Haiduc (talk) 09:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "Resort to imputations...?" Haiduc, I don't think that is in dispute, and I certainly don't mean that in an accusatory or disparaging way (we can't hear each other's tone through text which often leads to a perception that may not be present; please read this and the past posts as calm and measured; we are having a discussion:-) . You agree, don't you, that the expression commonly used is bad trip and that psychedelic crisis is not common at all? And you expressly state your belief that that common expression is "misleading and inaccurate". Then, ipso facto, changing the name to the non-common term results in imposing a correction on society's choice. This doesn't mean that you're wrong that the common expression imparts a negative tone on an experience that some find to be a net positive. But when naming an article we go by commonality. And when changing a name because it is negative, we do so to avoid the insulting as to people. Of course, all issues can and should be explored in the article's text if the literature on the subject warrants it, giving consideration to weight. The article on weed is a good example of this. The article is named weed and states that that name has pejorative connotations but the name of the article remains weed. The articles it links to are not alternate names; they are specific types of plants that fit under the umbrella term weed. In like manner, if "psychedelic emergency" is a subset of bad trip and there are reliable sources out there to write an article on it, then there's no reason that we can't have a separate article. But if it's an alternate name only, then it should get a redirect to here, and nothing else.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

too strong?
Seeing as the term "bad trip" itself is pretty much a slang term, and "psychedelic crisis" appears to be a compromise constructed for this article rather than a clinical term, I have to call into questiong the phrase "profoundly disturbing". I would describe my second LSD experience (of three) as a "bad trip", but it wasn't "profoundly disturbing". Based on my limited experience, and on hearing anecdotes and such from more experienced users, an acid trip is either a good trip or a bad trip, but it doesn't have to be an absolute nightmare to be a bad trip. I'm not making the edit right now because I currently don't feel qualified to make this judgement, but I thought it should be discussed. - Ugliness Man (talk) 06:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * People on "bad trips" are profoundly upset, cannot find their right mind and think they have lost it forever, and are often in fear of personal or global annihilation (among many other terrors and agonies that they may suffer). I cannot give you references right now as I am not in my office, but the literature, and especially Stan Grof, goes into this extensively. Maybe your bad trip was not bad enough? Haiduc (talk) 06:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, sorry to so rigid about it. Would you agree to rephrasing the text so as to include a range of experiences?. Haiduc (talk) 07:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that would be ideal. Obviously, make it plain that it's a negative experience while under the influence of a hallucinagenic substance, but any mention of the "crisis" interp should be presented as a potential, not the only form. - Ugliness Man (talk) 09:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding bad trips
Maybe there should be some information about how to avoid bad trips? Here are some ideas of what could be added:


 * Using drugs to abort the trip, and what those drugs may be (Antipsychotics, benzodiazepines, ..)
 * Set and setting — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.14.40.221 (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Imbalance in 'Aspects' section
Currently, the 'Aspects' section appears almost entirely devoted to describing the very worst and most extreme kinds of experiences. This seems greatly out of balance, as most recorded negative experiences are of a much more limited scale and character, and may often, as described in other sections of the article, yield positive results. Heavenlyblue (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Language of this article is stigmatizing and there is much new research that contradicts what is written in this article
This page should be forwarded to the currently preferred term 'challenging experiences'.

Here are some papers that go in to these and offer much novel insights that should be added to the page:
 * Assessing the risk–benefit profile of classical psychedelics: a clinical review of second-wave psychedelic research
 * Day trip to hell: A mixed methods study of challenging psychedelic experiences
 * Psychedelic Harm Reduction and Integration: A Transtheoretical Model for Clinical Practice
 * Language as a Window Into the Altered State of Consciousness Elicited by Psychedelic Drugs
 * The Challenging Experience Questionnaire: Characterization of challenging experiences with psilocybin mushrooms
 * Misguided Mainstreaming of Psychedelic Drugs: Challenging Experiences

Cdreue — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdreue (talk • contribs) 00:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)