Talk:Bagel

superiority of New York bagel?
is assumed in article, no source. --142.163.194.153 (talk) 21:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Origin of Bagel
A new article out in Serious Eats which delves into the history of the bagel with legitimately cited academic sources clarifies much of the "ambiguous history" of the bagel referred to in the introduction to this page. I suggest we incorporate this information into the introduction about the origins, because they are not ambiguous as claimed here and can be traced back to the 13th century, earlier than the 17 century currently mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Figsandpecans (talk • contribs) 14:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Firstly, the website "Serious Eats" is not a reliable source, it is a blog/commentary which also contains some typos. However, the books it cites are quite interesting. However, none of these sources state that the kaak is a precursor to the modern bagel. The claim is made by the author of the web article who coined eg. wheat flour in Poland which is native to the Mediterranean and the Levant. It is highly trivial and all bread is somehow related. Any mentioning of this should be included in the body of the article and not in the lead (introductory) section. Oliszydlowski (talk) 14:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Serious Eats may be a blog, but the article itself cites reliable sources. The claim about wheat flour in poland is substantiated by yet another academic book published by Stanford University Press https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/6973156 and page numbers can be included in citations. Do you suggest this information is added to the body of the Bagel page or do you suggest creating a new section in which this supposed origin of the bagel is discussed? Perhaps a section titled "Earlier Origins of the Bagel" or something along those lines? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Figsandpecans (talk • contribs) 14:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really matter if the blog cites reliable sources if those cited sources don't make the same claims. - MrOllie (talk) 14:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

But the cited sources do make the same claims - you can go and read them! :-) Given this, I will edit this article based on the underlying sources rather than the article itself and this resolves the issue of using Serious Eats as a source. All other sources are academic sources from reputable institutions (NYU / Stanford etc.) Please do not remove those edits unless you have equally legitimate sources which contradict the claims made in those sources.


 * The author of the article is Reem Kassis, who might be considered a reliable source regardless of where her work is published. I'd support a brief mention in the history section. gobonobo  + c 20:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, it took some digging but I was able to verify all the sources in the article and use the primary sources themselves (with pages) to incorporate this new information. I have kept it very brief in intro, and in the instance where the Serious Eats article itself is cited, highlighted that it is speculation. We have an obligation to make this information available to readers. So unless you have contradictory information from equally reputable academic sources (the ones here are Yale, Stanford and NYU) kindly do not reverse any of the edits that were just published. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Figsandpecans (talk • contribs) 01:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I moved the content to the history section and rephrased it to "Recent study showed that the bagel could be related to the Arabic ka'ak which possibly made its way to Poland and other parts of Europe through the Mediterranean". Is that good? Oliszydlowski (talk) 02:28, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with the move + wording, but the information in the intro which states The first known mention of the bagel, in 1610, was in Jewish community ordinances in Kraków, Poland.[4] is false and inaccurate according to the very sources this statement cites. Those sources say that it was mentioned in Polish Royal Family accounts in 1394. It is also widely documented that the first mention of a boiled then baked ring of dough is in a 13th century cookbook, where it is mentioned as a staple of the cuisine. So I don't think we can leave a factually inaccurate statement in the intro, when anyone who goes back to the sources supposedly supporting those claims can read that it is inaccurate. So I am going to edit one intro sentence to the following sentence: The first known mention of a boiled then baked ring shaped bread can be found in a 13th century Arabic cookbook, where they are referred to as ka'ak[2]. Today, bagels are widely associated with Ashkenazi Jews from the 17th century, where bagels were mentioned in 1610 in Jewish community ordinances [4]in Kraków, Poland.[5] But bagel-like bread —referred to as obwarzanek—was common earlier in Poland as seen in royal family accounts from 1394[6]. I think that should solve the issue where there is no speculation, the history is in the history section and the information about origins and mentions in intro is now accurate. good ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Figsandpecans (talk • contribs) 14:41, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Someone continues to undo edits even after they have been discussed and resolved here. Please advise

Fixing referencing problems and copyediting
I've re-applied the edits I made to fix referencing errors in this article. was added to the article without a reference of that name previously being defined. That causes the article to render with a visible error message, in addition to material not being actually referenced. I changed some curly quotes to straight quotes, per MOS:CONFORM. And I converted a raw reference URL to use cite book so the reference has more, clear information about the referenced material. These changes have nothing to do with the ongoing origin discussions. They don't need any discussion, since they implement wikipedia's recommended practices and style.

Maybe there are some issues with the content, but my edit isn't changing the editorial content -- just formatting and referencing inprovments. Are there WP:OWN problems here? -- Mikeblas (talk) 20:47, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Beagle?
Is there really a likelihood someone would be confused when they got here because they were looking for Beagle? I assume someone thought beigel was a possible misspelling for beagle, but this just doesn't seem like a good enough reason for a hatnote, especially when there's already a hatnote there. —valereee (talk) 16:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'm inclined to propose Asiago bagel be merged into this. The Asiago bagel article seems to have too much going on to agree with 's PROD tag, but also not sure it justifies an independent article. I almost want to say this should be both the subject of a merge and a split -- looking at Bagel, there seems to be clear room for a Types of bagels-type page that doesn't appear to exist, and this would do better as an entry on it than an independent article. (Also paging as creator of the article that would be merged here.) Vaticidalprophet (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Merge - it's a variant of the bagel.  Onel 5969  TT me 16:38, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Reply Please.
Bagels originaTed in Germany and were brought to Poland!

Non-traditional bagels
The section on "non-traditional" bagels includes "sourdough" as an example. This is misleading since the characteristics of a traditional bagel are that it contains yeasted wheat. Yeast can be commercial yeast or the natural yeasts found by fermenting a levain - which is the definition of sourdough.

Since bagels originated from a time before commercial yeast was available, sourdough is most definitely a traditional ingredient in any bread product. LeicesterChris (talk) 17:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Dubious Jewish origin
I placed this here for two reasons.

1) it is established that the Bagel comes from non-jewish, polish sources in the reference material used to cite the claim that the bagel originated among Ashkenazi Jews.

2) It has been argued here before that the bagel did not originate with Jews and that discussion was shut down by another user in a way that may constitute a violation of Wikipedia's rule against [|Edit Warring].

I know there is a commonly held folk belief that Ashkenazi Jews invented bagels because it is a large aspect of their culinary tradition, but even within the material referenced on this own page, that has been disproven here. Additionally, I am Jewish so I don't have any motive for this other than the absolute truth. Cakiva (talk) 01:25, 13 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Can we have some sources please? Current claims are based off references which are placed in the article (see in-line citations and footnotes). Merangs (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense, the sources absolutely do not support the statements and claims made in this article. Bageleditor (talk) 02:10, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Brands and store, restaurant chains name... is it normal?
I read 5 to 10 Wikipedia articles a day, about pretty much anything, including articles about food, and I’ve never ever seen so many references to brand names and store names than in this bagel article.

I mean I guess that’s ok by the standards if the information is backed up by sources, but I wonder if this is a common thing in food articles to talk about specific restaurants or brands and give statistics about their sales

Just curious to see if it’s just me who finds that weird 104.200.83.221 (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Feel free to remove any excessive brand references. A few many be necessary to provide cultural context or factual support. Gdcwd5 (talk) 19:06, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Is it bread, though?
It says "Type: Bread"

...really though? 199.94.67.37 (talk) 17:10, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

"Bejgle" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Bejgle and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:34, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

"Bajgiel" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Bajgiel and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

"Bajgle" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Bajgle and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Problem
What is your problem? Why do you insist on unsourced statements? Bageleditor (talk) 01:04, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The lead section summarizes the rest of the article. Citations for the statements you are concerned about can be found further down. MrOllie (talk) 01:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

They should be referenced, and regardless the source does not support the statements. Please read the sources before defending them. Bageleditor (talk) 02:08, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * You asked for a source, even though sources in the lead section are optional. Then you deleted a statement as 'unsourced' anyway. What is really going on here? Do you doubt that Bagels are associated with the Jews? MrOllie (talk) 02:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Bagel
Source does not support this statement. Bageleditor (talk) 02:07, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Which statement are you talking about? Which source? MrOllie (talk) 02:45, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think they are referring to this: "Bagels are now a popular bread product in North America and Poland, especially in cities with a large Jewish population." I went through the source document and there is no such statement found within, and I cannot find a source specifically stating that bagels are more popular in cities with Jewish people than not.  It's pretty accepted that bagels aren't Jewish so I don't see why this passage is relevant.
 * Also, that book right off the bat makes incorrect statements so I don't think it should be used as a source.  Flounder22 (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Noting here that Bageleditor and Flounder22 have been blocked as sockpuppet accounts. - MrOllie (talk) 21:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

"Beigel" as an alternative spelling
I have never seen that spelling being consumed by anyone in my entire life, and the source for it being an official spelling is a source that streams from a dictionary (AKA, not an objective source). Is there any instance of this spelling being dropped outside of the dictionary, like in an article or a study? Do-Droppy (talk) 12:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Common in some English communities. See https://www.timeout.com/london/restaurants/brick-lane-beigel-bake for example. 82.42.26.106 (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)