Talk:Bagel/Archive 1

Boiling water questions
Despite what multiple websites say about Montreal bagels being boiled in honey water baths (including at least one bakery website), is this a verified current practice beyond website claims? Or is "honey water" a euphemism for "malt water"? Or, perhaps it a honey/malt mixture? 05:16, 17 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.212.65 (talk)

It was my impression that a standard New York bagel was steamed with plain water, and not boiled in honeyed water &mdash; or maybe boiled in plain water? That was the explanation I had for the heavy vs. light crust. Need a New Yorker to swing by a canonical bagelry :) &mdash; mendel &#9742; 01:57, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

I have worked in 4 "New York" styly bagel stores (Although I do not live in NY, and they all boil their bagels in plain water. Also, in the "Refrigerator Storage" Section, it may be helpful to note that it is important to keep as much air out of the plastic bag as possible when refrigerating or freezing in order to prevent moisture in the bag, which leads to mold. BlackBartBagelMan


 * The gluten change Scratch that. I can find something to contradict any difference I find. :-( I'm going to try to get an opinion out of St. Viateur and Fairmont in Montreal as to how they differ; that's going to be pretty biased, though, so I still want someone in New York to do the same thing though.  &mdash; mendel &#9742; 02:59, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * No reply from either, sigh. &mdash; mendel &#9742; 02:59, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

German language material
If someone working on this is good with German, there is a request at WP:TIE to translate the material from the German language article. A quick scan says there is only a little bit there that cannot be found here, but what is there is a bit abstruse, so it will need someone with good German. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Bagel Abominations
There are many bagel abominations in the United States. These are round rolls with holes in the middle that are not boiled before baking. (Like the Noah's chain does, or most "Supermarket" bagels.) These should be outlawed. swirsky See Section Below re: Noah's --Jmanyeah 31 January 2006

I concur. Montreal Bagels forever! 65.94.93.76


 * "'Do you want a cinnamon-raisin bagel?' That's not a bagel, that's a doughnut made of bread!" - Lea DeLaria
 * Fascism lives. Dappled Sage 22:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Correction to the above claim re: Noah's
Swirsky, I found the assertion that Noah's doesn't boil their bagels a little dubious mainly because their bagels are pretty kickin. By far they are the best chain source of NY style bagels in the San Francisco Bay Area (IMO). So I emailed em. I received a response from Peggy Kling (PKling@nwrgi.com) of Noah's Customer Service Dept. Here is the relevant part about their bagel making process:

"Our bagels are boiled in the manufacturing process. They are then shipped in a frozen state to the stores where they are baked fresh for your enjoyment!"

I don't think she has reason to lie. Aside from the frozen part, it's a damn fine Bagel. Just didn't want any misconceptions floating around out there.

--Jmanyeah 31 January 2006


 * Noah's bagels are not boiled. They are bread-rings, not bagels.  The most traditional (and in my opinion the best) bagels in the San Francisco Bay Area come from House of Bagels at Geary and 15th Avenue in San Francisco.  Also, if you want *real* NY style pizza, try this little dump of a pizzeria run by a handful of stoned skaters called "Arinell's" on  16th Street at Valencia in San Francisco. :) Chrismon 17:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You can get real bagels in the bay area
at Izzy's (which are Kosher) or House of Bagels (which aren't under supervision)


 * Alex Bennett used to complain about this on his show all the time. “You can’t get a good bagel in the Bay!” (or “California,” or however he said it), and people would call up to recommend someplace he’d already been, and he would tell them, basically, that they didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about. Often, people who recommended bagel places had never had a New York bagel. Supposedly it’s the water that makes them unique—you can google this if you want, but IIRC, I once ran across a page that asserted that some New York bagel guy moved to Florida, had his entire store, all the exact same equipment shipped down there so it’d be exactly the same, and the bagels still didn’t taste quite right. Whatever, I eat doughnuts —Donadicto 876. 20:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

donuts
Recently added to the article, "Bagels should not be confused with doughnuts (donuts)." Nor with pneumatic tires. Is this really necessary? Has anyone ever made the mistake this is intended to address? -- Jmabel | Talk 05:09, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Even to someone who's never seen a bagel, the description of the cooking process (boiled then baked, rather than deep fried) should clear up any possible confusion. — Flourdustedhazzn 18:00 EST, December 29, 2005.


 * I would have agreed, and first laughed when I saw that, but I have since been asked (while eating a bagel), wether or not it is a donut. So I now disagree, they do look kind of similar I guess, people outside certain countries are often unfamilar with it. I don't think it hurts to keep it Epson291 04:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

German word "bugel" and link to Gugelhupf
At least in standard German there is no word "bugel" and therefore it also does not mean "round loaf of bread". There is, however, the word Bügel which refers to a bent piece of wood or metal and which is part of the words Steigbügel (stirrup) or Kleiderbügel (coat-hanger). As for the link to Gugelhupf: Although a Gugelhupf is topologically a torus, it has a quite different shape than a bagel. It also is unclear if the word Gugelhupf decomposes into "Gugel-hupf" or into "Guge-lupf" (where the h is only due to an erroneous etymology) and how either "Gugel" or "Guge" could be related to "bagel". It should also be noted that there are croissant-shaped pastries by the name Nussbeugel (nut beugel, where "beugel" is pronounced "boygl").129.101.86.246 19:10, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Obwarzanek
Is an obwarzanek really the same thing as a bagel? In particular, is it boiled before it is baked? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:08, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

"Obwarzanek krakowski" does appear to be a version of a bagel with a shorter proofing period. Also Obwarzanek krakowski have been made in the region since 1394 apparently. It would appear that bagels are perhaps derived from the Obwarzanek krakowski. Especially considering similar regional origin.Jasdasra (talk) 13:05, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion the history portion of the article should talk about the probability that bagels are a derivation of obwarzanek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:69C1:2A00:95:7EC6:53B1:61C8 (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * And if you can cite a reliable source suggesting such a probability, I might agree with you. Rivertorch FIREWATER  17:29, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Origin
"...a Polish origin, Jewish baker from Vienna named Baigel...": this has the ring of an urban legend. Is it cited from somewhere? If not, I believe we should get rid of it. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:49, August 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * Does it ever! Well, except that at least urban legends show up in a Google search. I was just about to revert it, and I'll go do so now. &mdash; mendel &#9742; 15:11, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Yum, I love bagels :)

OK, and what is this line supposed to mean: invented possibly in Kraków (although now proved to be Germany)? Cema (talk) 02:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The name may be European or Jewish but the "bagel product" (the bread) originate in Western China. You can do more research on this.--Self Image (talk) 04:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Brick Lane
In Brick Lane (London) the Beigal Bake 24-hour Beigal (not Bagel) shop has been in business for over a century. I think that the Bagel/Beigal divide depends on whether your local Jews are Litvak or Poylish. They (the beigals) are boiled in plain sight, probably also in plain water, then rinsed off with a spray, batched up on to baking trays and put in the oven. And as for keeping them fresh, the definitive characteristic of the Beigal is that, if it's cold then it's stale.

The shop itself used to have at least two spellings on its outside signage (beigel, biegal, beigel) but has now settled on Beigal. And ever since I remember (long enough) the pronunciation has been Bye-gal, not Bay-gal.

===I remember reading a history of London in the 1700's published in the 1980's which mentioned Bagels (yes Bagel rather than Beigal, sorry, but then spelling was not yet fully standardized) being available from a baker with locations in both Fleet Street and Charing Cross Road in the 1780's and 90's. Anyone else remember reading about this? E.A. Weinstein Interesting to hear that in East London it is pronounced by some as 'Beigal'/'Bye-gal'....this is as I remember it as a kid living amongst many Jewish people. In recent years here in Austrlia people try to tell me I am mis-prouncing the word :)glenhod (Glenhod (talk) 10:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC))

==== Sometimes people forget the Jews live in other places in the UK than East London, and bye-gal is definitely out of step with other Jews in the UK who pronounce it Bay-gel. Bye-gal is more to do with the London Jewish accent than correct pronunciation.

Also I might mention that as usual when mentioning the UK, it is London-centric - Jews have been eating Bagels in other places in the UK than London. My grandfather was certainly selling them in Cheetham Hill Manchester in the early part of the centuryColourchem (talk) 09:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Popularization?
"The bagel came into more general use throughout North America in the last quarter of the 20th century." It would be interested to know more about how this happened. And not just "bagels became popular because they were good to eat". Who first marketed bagels to people who had been unfamiliar with them? Did they first spread to the smaller Jewish communities existing in the average U.S. city? And does "Bagel Bites" have anything to do with it... I seem remember people in some areas buying up Bagel Bites to feed to their kids, for years before any bagel shops cropped up in the same area.

Translation request from de:Bagel

 * Corresponding English-language article: bagel
 * Worth doing because: more information
 * Originally Requested by:--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 19:28, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Status: Completed (23/03/2006) &mdash; QuantumEleven | (talk)
 * Other notes: The English article seems to be the more informative. The German article doesn't seem to have much to add. --Mmounties 21:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The German article does discuss the how bagels could be made on the Sabbath, which isn't in the English article. Angr/talk 20:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry. My mistake. --Mmounties 03:15, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Supported:

RJ?
"A sweet variant of the bagel known as the “fragel” is found in Michigan; bagel dough is fried and coated with some RJ."

What, pray tell, is RJ?
 * Rimjob

pronunciation?
"The pronunication of 'bagel' is highly contentious between communities and is often a reflection of inter-communal rivalries. In Canada, for instance, the Torontonian tendency to mispronounce the first syllable as 'bag,' like a shopping bag, is taken as an afront by bagel aficionados in Montreal and has had consequences ranging from broken homes to street brawls." OK, this is hilarious, but I’m changing it. Wiki Wikardo 20:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I thinks east coasters pronounce bagel like shopping bag because theuy can not speak proper English.

I am a New Yorker and have ingested hundreds of thousands of real NY water bagels (mmmm tasty)...anywho, back to dialect, in the mid-atlantic region of the US many people refer to bagels as "beg-els" emphasizing the beg portion... weirdos. Eleigh33 19:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Leaving aside the -charming- comment above about how "theuy" cannot speak English, I live in Halifax and have never heard anyone pronounce bagel like 'bag.' Jarring bit of original research?  142.177.44.232 05:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I live in Halifax and looked this up because I just heard it pronounced like 'bag' (at Tim Horton's)

Guys it doesn't matter how you pronounce it. Dappled Sage 03:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But if someone pronounces 'bag' like the first part of 'bagel' I'll murder them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 18 January 2008

"Bag", like the first part of "bagel". Seriously dude, you sound like one of my friends who has anger-management problems. And, like Dappled Sage said, no one really gives a crap on how you say "bagel". It's just fried dough. You're supposed to eat it, and specifically with cream cheese, not discuss it.

Well, just to add on a different take: I grew up in Southern California and have since lived in the southwest and now in the Midwest, and the only pronunciation I have ever heard is "bay-gl" or something like that, with the syllable break before the "g". Wschart (talk) 13:21, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

How about the Name, or word Beigle? Does that fit in anywhere?Cbeigle (talk) 14:12, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Cream cheese
This article only covers sweet bagels and savory bagels and savory bagel fillings, but no sweet bagel fillings. Where I come from, the only thing you'd ever put on a bagel is strawberry or blueberry cream cheese, period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 18 January 2008

The most dangerous bread?
According to a British documentary, bagels are said to be the most dangerous form of bread. What makes this so is that numerous got injured trying to slice bagels. To slice them they say one must do while they're placed flat on a surface. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.9.126.41 (talk) 13:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Those people might be retarded. Dappled Sage 20:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny, but probably true. I forget, why are we talking about bagels?

Popular in Poland and Lithuania?
If you want to know how much our Polish friends know about the Bagel, read pl:Bajgiel which centers around their popular king Sobieski. Lithuanian wiki presently has no article linked at all. Thus I removed the POV from the intro. -- Matthead discuß!    O       18:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

How to Pronounce "Bagel"?
There's a lot of ambiguity about how to pronounce "bagel". Is it BAG-ul, or "BEG-ul"? (as in "grocery BAG" or "to BEG for food"?) Thoughts? Personally, I think it's the latter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.174.65 (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know anyone who pronounces it like that. I pronounce it bay-gul. Like I am eating a bay-gul from Noah's bay-guls. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.196.199 (talk) 18:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no ambiguity at all: http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=bagel WaxTadpole (talk) 20:00, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Yiddish
The article makes a couple references to the English word being from the Yiddish. It seems to me more likely that it came from the German. Can someone who is into linguistics check this out? --Eliyak T · C 06:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If it came from the German it is in all probability Yiddish because Yiddish is a composite of many languages, German and Hebrew being the main ones. IZAK (talk) 08:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Calling a 12 hour sleeper a 'bagel'
The paragraph preceding References states: '"Bagel" is also referred to as a Yeshivish term to one who sleeps 12 hours straight. Thus called a bagel as the clock goes around in a full circle.'

I would have thought that a 12 hour sleeper was called "bagel" due to 12 hours being the length of time in which bagels "sleep" (i.e., in which the yeast is allowed to rise slowly while refrigerated).

Anyone know?

Lizard1959 (talk) 02:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do. The "fact" you state, that bagels are refrigerated for 12 hours to allow the dough to rise slowly, is not true. As far as I can tell, you made it up completely. I have taken it out of the article. Davidmanheim (talk) 17:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry Davidmanheim, but you were incorrect -it is quoted in a reliable source, as follows:
 * ""The traditional bagel prides itself on its full flavour and thick shiny crust, culinary glories achieved by 'retarding' the dough rings by keeping them in a cool place for a certain lenght of time (up to twenty hours) prior to cooking. Retardation slows down the fermentation process caused by the yeast and encourgaes the formation of lactic acid bacteria, naturally found in yeast, but usually underveloped in warm doughts. What their greated presence gives the bagel is more flavour.... It is also thanks to retardation that the bagel acquires its substantial crust...." (etceteras). Source: Balinska 2008, pp.4-5.


 * I will go ahead and revert your change which deleted the material containing "dough has to "rest" for at least 12 hours", since the explanation for the Yeshivish term is entirely possible. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 00:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Ohio plain dough ball
I removed the "Ohio plain dough ball" sentence from the article because it appears to be a hoax. Without a reliable source it doesn't belong in the article. --Megaboz (talk) 18:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Hoax: a grouping of 3 bagels is a prial/prangle/frackle ?
Can anyone find a reference citation, or even a definition listing for these three number names (in linguistics: distributive numerals, such as dozen or score)? I've checked a number of online dictionaries in English and Polish and couldn't fine any related references or listings. These words are discussed in the fourth para. of 'History', quoting:
 * In the East End of London bagels were usually sold in groups of three which were referred to as a 'prial', 'prangle' or (less commonly) a "frackle" of bagels.

This is suspicious and apparently a hoax. Its traceable to a Nov. 6, 2007 edit by user: 205.228.73.11, an address currently assigned to 'Morgan Stanley' (presumably the investment firm) near Ashburn, Virginia. The user's talk page has a history of Wiki violations on it. I've tagged the line with {citation required}, and if nothing's forthcoming by way of a reference the statement will be deleted. Perhaps Morgan Stanley IT would like to know how their resources are being used.

The sentence following that one (on groupings) is also suspect:
 * Allegedly, it was here, before the widespread use of refrigeration that 'beigels' would be stored in large crates of earth (that had been prebaked to remove insects, bacteria and other contaminants) in an effort to keep their moisture and freshness.

Why would earth be used as a humidifier, when humidity causes bacterial growth? I also couldn't find an attribution for it on a Google check, so I'm thinking its more vandalism. Harry Zilber (talk) 18:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above noted statements lacking citations were removed on 2009-03-02.
 * Harry Zilber (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Alleged Norwegian tradition
Can anyone familiar with Norwegian customs source this new para., (added by brand new user account Miles1955 on March 1, 2009)? If unsupported, I propose the edit be removed. Harry Zilber (talk) 14:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A old norwegian tradition was to place thirteen one day old bagels on the doorsteps of a young girl who had become pregnant out of wedlock. The bagels were thought to bring bad luck to the family, hoping that she would repent to God.[citation needed] The girl would be forced to move away from the family and raise the child with family in a different town, only to return once the child had grown to the age of thirteen.[citation needed]


 * The above noted statement lacking citation was removed 2009-03-07 Harry Zilber (talk) 06:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"While normally and traditionally made of yeasted wheat"
How are bagels leavened with commercial yeast "traditional" considering that origins of bagels go back to 17th century and commercial yeast were not developed till late 19th century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ant9n (talk • contribs) 06:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The "pseudo-bagel" picture
"A "pseudo-bagel" (the hole does not go all the way through) from a Muslim restaurant in Guangzhou, China" --I believe it is a variation of Chinese Naan, instead of Bagel 24.217.192.230 (talk) 22:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Page protection applied again to the article
As requested today:
 * "Permanent semi-protection due to non-stop vandalism, both silly and sneaky types. This page already received semi-protection at least once before, about six weeks ago, but the kids out there just can't resist this article due to its ethnic flavour and the sexually suggestive hole in the dough (lots of reverts for that). About 25 of the last 35 edits were to vandalize the page, with the rest being reverts, except for a single legitimate edit (which was reverted anyhow due to its factual inaccuracy). Providing permanent semi-protection will reduce a lot of the workload involved with this article's maintenance and improvement. --HarryZilber (talk) 11:28 am, Today (UTC−4)"


 * The admin response: "From 2 weeks to "permanent" is a bit of a jump. Semi-protected for a period of 1 month. After 1 month the page will be automatically unprotected.. –xeno talk 11:31 am, Today (UTC−4)"

This will allow Wikipedians a respite for next few weeks on this article. Ciao, --HarryZilber (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Large scale commercial sales -unencylopedic?
Another Wikipedian decided that the section on large scale commercial sales of bagels was unencyclopedic and constituted advertising (several large bakeries in the U.S. were named by their ranking) and summarily removed that work. However, as per "WP:Indiscriminate", the section was not: "(An) excessive listing of statistics. Long and sprawling lists of statistics.... confusing to readers and (reducing) the readability and neatness of our articles".

What was provided were four sentences that neatly compiled the size of a surprisingly large economic slice of the U.S. food marketplace. No elaboration or endorsements of the commercial bakeries were provided beyond their names, so I can't accept that constituted 'advertising', especially since several thousands of other Wikipedia articles mention commercial organizations by name.

Bagels are not only a Jewish cultural food item, they've also become a popular food among diverse populations in many western countries, and as such a short description of their economics and its principle suppliers is not unwarranted. Thus the section previously removed has now been restored. --HarryZilber (talk) 17:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

BEIGAL
Beigals are smaller and more dense that a Bagel. The (everthing is bigger in the USA) Bagel has a fluffy soft mouth-feel wheras the Beigal is sweet and chewy. If you toast a Beigal the day after you buy it you will have an almost toffee like quality in the bun rather than just toast which you get from a Bagel. The Bagel is big and tastless while a Beigal has as intimate and deliciously complex flavour. The best Beigal I have ever tates comes from Brick Lane Beigel Bake, 159 Brick Lane London UK E1 6SB. They have been baking on the premises for over 100 years.

http://www.welovelocal.com/en/london/hackney/shoreditch/bakers/beigal-bake-e16sb.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.179.7 (talk) 15:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As an over-50 New Yorker, I can tell you that what you're calling a "beigal" is what a real New York Jewish deli bagel was, prior to the 1980s. I haven't had a real bagel in over 30 years. What they call bagels these days are, as you said, big, soft, and fluffy, like rolls. I assume that this is to give them a greater appeal across all ethnic groups. But traditional bagels are small, very dense, chewy, crusty, and a little bit sweet, and I miss them. WaxTadpole (talk) 20:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Article quality concerns
This entry is in desprate need of attention(i love bagels :]) by an actual baker or a culinary expert of some kind. There is no mention of local 338 and I haven't found any any recipe source which calls for over night proofing for either sourdough or industrial yeast bagels. Calling natural leavened (sourdough) bagels "nontraditional" is just plain false when they were produced long before the advent of industrial yeast. There are no citations given for any of the supposed historical or culturial facts. I'll come back through and add the wiki templates and / or make the required changes when I have some more time - unless there are reasons for these flaws. Capttwinky 10:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

As a serious student of home bagel baking, I am fleshing out the preparation section. There are two common ways of making bagels. The traditional bagel is boiled after being refrigerated overnight, then baked. This process generally results in a bagel with a chewy, shiny crust. In recent times, a new bagel variant has emerged, in which the boiling process is skipped, but the bagel is baked in an oven equipped with a steam injection system, resulting in a bagel with a crispy crust, less shininess, and less chewy texture. --Krunchky 01:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "Today, bagels are enjoyed all over the world, and have become one of the most popular breakfast foods." needs a citation. This is a rather broad statement, and I suspect that it reflects an American/Eurocentric viewpoint rather than any actual knowledge of what people around the world eat for breakfast. Common Chinese, Indonesian, and South Asian breakfast foods are surely much more popular than the bagel. Jimbopowerhouse (talk) 04:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Loanword?
This was listed in Categories as a German loanword. It isn't in my dictionary; does anyone have it in theirs?

And if it is a loanword, is it a German one? I thought it was Yiddish. Moonraker12 (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yiddish inherits to a great part older forms of german vocabulary.-- 178.115.30.55 (talk) 08:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Moved for discussion and merging
These edits have some useful information, but it needs to be properly sourced and merged with the rest of the article. Note that the sources were moved into the Further reading section. --Ronz (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

The bagel which is a hard bread roll made of yeast dough and high gluten flour shaped with a hole in the middle like a doughnut has been traced back to 1496. The decree of 1496 limited Jewish bakers in Krakow, Poland from producing “obwarzanek,” which were bagel like rolls meaning “to parboil,” within the city limits. The process of parboiling, boiling before baking distinguishes the bagel from other bread products. The origin of the name bagel has its roots from Vienna, Austria in 1683. As gratitude to Polish King Sobieski for protecting the Jews of Vienna from Turkish invaders, a local Jewish baker made a special hard roll to commemorate the King’s favorite pastime, horseback riding. The roll was made in the shape his riding stirrup and called it a “beugel” the Austrian word for stirrup.

Bagels became popular in Poland and were given as gifts to women in childbirth and were used as teething rings by infants because they were nutritious and were easily gripped. When a large Jewish population settled in Russia the bagel went along where it was called “bubliki”. It was sold on strings, which facilitated carrying them. The popularity of the bagel stemmed from it having the advantage of lasting longer than baked bread. The boiling process gave the bagel an outer sheen that was crunchy and had a protective outer crust. If the bagel got slightly stale dunking it in hot liquid would rejuvenate its freshness.

The bagel arrived in North America in the early 1900’s with the immigration of Eastern European Jews. The bagel industry took its roots in the Canadian cities of Montreal and Toronto. The American industry was established and thrived in New York City with the formation of the Bagel Bakers Local # 338 union. Its membership was limited to sons of members so they had “bagels in their blood.” With the rising number of bagel bakeries in the 1950’s and 1960’s its popularity transcended ethnic boundaries. Murray Lender who emigrated from Poland to New Haven, Connecticut is responsible for the mass distribution of bagels by innovating the packaging of frozen bagels in polyethylene bags. Subsequent to his returning home from the Korean War in 1956 he and his father established Lender Bagels, which became popular in frozen foods aisles in supermarkets throughout America. Today the popularity of the bagel has swept America not as an ethnic food but as a sandwich alternative to bread.

Unrelated material
Why is there a blatant plug for a standup comedian (David Cross) in the middle of this entry? Is he that famous for talking about bagels? I've never heard of the guy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.90.125 (talk) 15:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed –he likely had some witty observation about 'squargles', but unless someone can come up with the context for him being in that line his reference should be removed. HarryZilber (talk) 16:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Factcheck + shameless advertising

THe passage below is obviously not correct, how can anyone say bagels are more popular in one city than another without citing strong proof. also the bagel of the north reference is clearly advertising on the part of the company and should be removed.

In the UK, bagels are popular in London, Leeds, Belfast, and Manchester. In Newcastle, the most popular seller of bagels is named Bagel of the North, with reference to the Angel of the North. On Brick Lane in East London there are two long established bagel shops in which the item is spelled beigel, with pronunciation to match. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.107.49 (talk) 08:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Can someone start a article? Seems like this major variant of the bagel, the, deserves an article. 70.29.208.247 (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Wikijj8000, 2 October 2010
http://www.foodnetwork.com/the-secret-life-of/secret-life-of-bagels/index.html

Wikijj8000 (talk) 23:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No consensus to do so. It's a highly promotional, spammed link, with almost no value to a reader. --Ronz (talk) 03:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: per WP:SPAM and WP:ELNO (and above comment). Thanks, Stickee (talk)  03:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Bagels Comunity - External Link
I want to know your toughts about adding http://www.bagelog.com to the Bagels Article. Bagelog is a Hispanic Bagels Blog with Facts, Recipes, Humor, and more about the Bagels. The objective of the blog is to create a hispanic comunity in south american countries for Bagel lovers and to make this bred popular in this part of the world. Its also very attractive for the hispanic community in USA.

I am looking forward to know your thoughts.

Diego — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmacadar (talk • contribs) 19:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The reason That Bagels Have Holes
The notion that bagels have holes in order to promote more even cooking is completely wrong. Anyone who has made bagels knows the real reason - so that they float and don't sink. If the hole closes up on the bagel, they go straight to the bottom where they can burn on the pan and are harder to fish out. I strongly suspect that this is also why donuts have holes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.119.247.28 (talk) 16:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Bagels and Sabbath
Hello. The article has this passage about bagels being connected to the Sabbath:

''In the context of Jewish culture, this process provided an additional advantage in that it could be followed without breaking the no-work rule of the Sabbath. The dough would be prepared on the day before, chilled during the day, and boiled and baked only after the end of the Sabbath, therefore using the Sabbath as a productive time in the bagel-making process (as the dough needs to slowly rise in a chilled environment for a time before cooking).[citation needed]''

A connection between bagels and the Sabbath is mentioned in blogs, it was in the German article before I rewrote the whole article, but not one expert such as Maria Balinska, Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett or Gil Marks mentions any connection between bagels and the Sabbath, or that bagels were eaten on Saturday nights, after Shabbat. My guess is, that it entered the blogosphere because bagels had become a week-end breakfast in America and because of the need to connect everything “Jewish” to Judaism. If the bagel-dough had actually been prepared before the Sabbath and been boiled and baked after the end of the Sabbath to be eaten as a Saturday night food, Maria Balinska would have mentioned it in her book, just as Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett (Encyclopedia of Food & Culture, The YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe) and Gil Marks (Encyclopedia of Jewish Food) would have written about it, and Dovid Katz certainly wouldn't have missed it (either). I'm therefore going to remove the above passage, if there are no objections. Ajnem (talk) 09:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry Ajnem, but you seem to mistake the fact that some authors choosing not to write about the obvious validates your notion that there's a need to 'connect everything Jewish to Judaism' (a phrase in itself which is counterintuitive). Please follow the logic of these readily citable facts: 1) In observant Jewish homes, no work is permitted during the Sabbath, including the work of food preparation. 2) Bagels are food, so therefore; 3) bagels, like other foods such as chulant, are not prepared during the Sabbath, but prior to the start of the holiday.  I see nothing objectionable to the paragraph you're seeking to removed and advise that it should remain in the article. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 07:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So sorry, but you seem to not understand what the issue is about: The bloggers, and only they, claim that bagels were an after Sabbath food, or in Hebrew terms, a food (typically) eaten on מוצאי שבת (Motzei Shabbat), which is contrary to everything the knowledgeable writers write about bagels. Unless you or somebody else come up with a more logical argument - cholent has nothing to do with it, as it is a well documented Sabbath food prepared before the Sabbath, not an after-Sabbath food - I'm going to remove the passage not documented by reliable sources. Ajnem (talk) 12:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello. Not seeing any valid objection, I'm going to remove the above mentioned passage as not sustained by reliable sources. Ajnem (talk) 07:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

This article could emphasise Jewish origins of bagels more
The bagel is of Jewish origin and this is implied in the article, but I wonder whether the article could emphasise the Jewish origins of bagels more. At present, it says in its opening that the bagels are popular in cities in the United States with large Jewish populations, and puts the bagel in the category of Jewish breads, but I do think that there could be a little more elaboration of Jewish origins of bagels here. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 08:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This website:

http://chicagojewishnews.com/story.htm?sid=1&id=251071

provides a very thorough explanation of the Jewish identification of bagels. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 08:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Flagged for regional balance
I have just flagged this article because it is lacking regional balance. I believe that this article represents an American centric viewpoint. Particular concerns: -The article makes passing references to bagels as a Jewish food. However it neglects the middle eastern Israeli-Jewish perspective, representing half of the Jewish world. Here in Israel, bagels are widely known as ka'akh due to the primary influence of Mizrahi Jewish heritage, related to the very similar Arabic and Mizrahi Jewish bread called "ka'ak". The name "Baygel" usually refers more to a pretzel or to a type of sanwich called "bagel tost", after the Turkish "tost". For example, there is no Hebrew Wikipedia article for bagel; instead it redirects to "כעך" ("Ka'akh"). -Related to the above, there is no mention of the "Jerusalem bagel", which is most similar to a Turkish "simit" or Palestinian "ka'ak", and can be found in Israeli shops in the West. -Bagels (as "ka'akh") are sold in Israel in busy squares, markets, outside of bus stations, etc. by mobile vendors with wooden carts and stacks of the bagels on wooden sticks, as per the Turkish and older European and Arabic style. In east Jerusalem, Arabic ka'ak are sold by Palestinian vendors. -I am not so much an expert on this, but I feel there may be something missing in the history, as I do not think that the appearance of the bagel in east Europe by Jews is unconnected to the presence of bagel type breads in Turkey and Middle East. The large migration of Jews from middle east to eastern europe in medieval times may have had something to do with the appearance of the bagel?

I hope this balance can be brought and improve the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.54.248.94 (talk) 18:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi there, your comment above and the addition of a {GlobalUse} template at the top of the article is a bit unusual considering the large section 'Bagels around the world'.  The article, and Wikipedia in general will welcome your additions, provided you can cite your material to reliable sources.  In other words, "...if you can cite it, you can write it". You do not have to worry too much about formatting or linking your new additions, as other editors can assist you with those tasks, but you should include your references, even if only in brackets, such as this: "(Balinska, Maria. The Bagel: The Surprising History of a Modest Bread, Yale University Press, 2008)". More information on editing can be found in Wikipedia's Missing Manual. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Bagel in Japan
There are fact and keep in record for the future before unclear who brought in and what happened. You can find an article of Forbs http://www.forbes.com/global/2000/1127/0324110a.html this is the fact for the market in Japan. Bagel was not available in Japan until Bagelk imported from the U.S. Especially New York Bagel was nobody have before Bagelk brought in. The round shape of donut type of bread called "Bagel" but it was not. This is the back ground I have wrote it down to make sure the fact. and this kind of artcile you can find from Kosher News, Food Distributor Magagine and Crain's NewYork magagine. All I made a comment. So please return back the article to make more clear understanding for Japan market. Thank you --Foodfinder (talk) 16:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

'''I am more than surprised that you just leave it without any adjustment and you block to me to edit an artcile and delete my edit. Is this your own page? I do not think that this is fair to all the people who willing to edit an article.'''Foodfinder (talk) 15:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

'''There are no reason to take out Japanese market article. The market of Japan is one of most expanded in the world based on rice culture; therefore, the article should be back.'''Foodfinder (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

B-class review
Failed, too many unreferenced paragraphs. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:15, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

The first picture does not show a bagel
The first sentence of the article refers to the boiling before baking, while the caption for the first picture says that the object shown was steamed rather than boiled. That object is therefore not a bagel! — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Link (talk • contribs) 13:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Carbohydrates?
The nutritional information given is not complete. I suggest removing it or completing it but as it stands important information is missing. 108.36.163.157 (talk) 18:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Jewish origins?
Bagels appear to be Polish in origins, specifically Catholic Poles (i.e. for Lent). Yet the name is of Yiddish origins. Why that inconsistency?101.98.152.235 (talk) 02:07, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I couldn't find the word "beygal" nor the German word "beugel." All I could find was that "beugen" can mean to bend, but that's hardly an explanation. The paragraph with its 10 different explanations is also just confusing. This article is seriously lacking in properly sourced material. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Is a bagel without a hole really a bagel?
I dropped into a Panera Bread store today. I had a craving for a good bagel, and heard they made some tasty ones. I learned that Panera Bread offers "bagels" that don't have holes in them; i.e. they are "rolls", not bagels. I asked the attendant about this, and received confident assurances that Panera's bagels were real bagels. Being a skeptic, I consulted Wikipedia when I got back to my laptop. The article here seems to confirm that the hole is a necessary condition for being a bagel.

Further research revealed that some have posted their personal opinions regarding Panera Bread's decision to call their rolls bagels:

The third reference was apparently authored by someone with some baking skills. While she was not critical of Panera Bread's use of the term bagel, she did comment on the fact that they have "smaller" holes than her bagels. Also interesting in this article is her technique for making the hole.

Finally to get to my suggestion: The Wikipedia article here recognizes at least two variations on the "standard bagel"; the Montreal bagel, and the Pizza bagel. I propose that a third variation be listed in the bagel article, the "panera bagel". Note that I am not proposing use of the proper name "Panera", but rather the Spanish word panera which means bread basket Seamusdemora (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2015
Add to the Varieties section:

Panera Bread offers several types of bagels that are made without holes. Technically, these are "rolls", not bagels, as the hole is a necessary condition for being a bagel. It is unclear why Panera Bread has misappropriated the term bagel for these products, as it has been demonstrated that these rolls can be made as a true bagel. This is not the first instance of bagel misappropriation; at least one variety of the Pizza bagel made by the Katz Bagel Bakery in Chelsea, Massachusetts is made "bez otworu ". In accordance with this precedent for Variations, Panera Bread's bez otworu bagels are labelled as panera bagels.

Seamusdemora (talk) 19:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This would be giving grossly WP:UNDUE weight to Panera Cannolis (talk) 19:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'm pretty sure a "hole-less" bagel is a fairly common thing. Around here, it's called a "biale" (sp.), pronounced "bee ah lee".  Any place in South Florida that bakes bagels also makes biales, without exception.  And I use the word "bakes" rather than sells, because I know some "academic"-type person is going to pop in and ask for all kinds of references and become combative/hyperventilated, etc. because they've never seen them in their supermarket in California.  24.51.217.118 (talk) 08:21, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Use of "Polish" vs. "Jewish"
Please re-evaluate your usage of these words.

"Polish" is a nationality - ie. a person of Polish heritage. "Jewish" denotes a religion - ie. a person adhering to Judaism.

When a non-Jew uses the word "Jewish" or "Jew", it's clear from the *context* of the writing, and the usage often comes over as condescending. I'm sure this article was written in good faith, but please have it proof read by a person that can distinguish between a nationality and a religion.

The five references below aren't mine -- they're the result of someone not structuring the "Panera Bread" comment properly.

24.51.217.118 (talk) 08:08, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Taste, Taste, Taste
My mother was Jewish, and I grew up eating what I assumed (and still assume) were real bagels, made by Baltimore Jews. Nowhere does the article state that a real bagel has a distinctive taste, unlike that of any other bread. If it doesn't have that taste, it's not a bagel. Period.

I assume this flavor is produced by the malt and (perhaps) other ingredients. The article should explain why bagels have their distinctive taste. Is it wrong to defend a "standard of identity" for bagels? WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 17:04, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This article describes it as follows: "A bagel is a ring from yeasted wheat dough ... that is first boiled for a short time in water and then baked". AFAIK, this is the distinct feature of it making this taste. But there are other breads produced by a similar procedure and having a similar taste, such as bublik and obwarzanek krakowski. --Off-shell (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2016
I suggest to edit this line: "Bublitchki or bagelach is a title of a famous Russian and Yiddish song written in Odessa in the 1920th." on this "Bublitchki or bagelach is a title of a famous Yiddish song written in Russian language in Odessa in the 1920th.", because this is not russian song, and it has nothing to do with the country Russia,it was just written in the russian language. Sacuki21 (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Why does it have nothing to do with Russia? It was first written in Russian in Odessa (the Soviet Union at that time) and later translated into Yiddish. It was made popular by Leonid Utyosov in the USSR and later by the Barry Sisters in the US. Just look for "бублички" on Youtube, and you will find a huge number of Russian performances. --Off-shell (talk) 22:19, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * ❌ both Russian and Yiddish are languages, so this is correct - Arjayay (talk) 09:46, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Regarding "A bagel salesman in Poland, 1935" picture
Picture is present in Polish wikipedia under article about Obwarzanek with description saying salesman stands on Kaziuki - Kaziuko_mugė fair in Vilnius in 1935. Obwarzanek is different than bajgiel and as Polish article says, is being mistaken as bajgiel due to similar shape. This should be addressed and/or corrected by moving mentioned picture below to the Similar breads section (I won't take the risk - I don't wanna screw whole article). --178.43.86.34 (talk) 00:09, 8 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Obwarzanek is very similar to a bagel so I propose changing the caption to "selling bagel-like bread" from "a bagel salesman". On the other hand, a bagel salesman also can sell obwarzanki. - Oliszydlowski, 11:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Popularity in Australia
It says on the front paragraph that bagels are popular in Australia, but they really aren't. I've lived in Australia for 18 years, hadn't had a bagel until I got to Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.158.25 (talk) 22:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the above person. I only came across bagels when I moved from Australia to Canada. Bagels are in no way, shape, or form, popular in Australia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.207.120.207 (talk) 16:55, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Also agree with the above two statements. I'm not sure who came up with the idea that they're popular in Australia but there's no basis to it. They are well behind regular toast, foccacia and turkish bread as a type of breakfast bread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.55.90 (talk) 00:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I the Melbourne east bagels are very popular. They may not be as popular as sourdoughs, but they are at least as popular as Turkish bread or focaccia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter R Vincent (talk • contribs) 03:49, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Template
Hello, hope all is well. I see you have reverted my edit here. Thank you for your explanation in the summery for your revert, I understand most of your points. However, you did state "nothing of this is an improvement". I do think the there are enough reference to support "creator" as Jewish communities of Poland -- and "national_cuisine" to Poland, United States, Israel. Please let me know if I can add those back, or what your concerns are. Look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks again in advance for taking the time to read my comment and reply. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 05:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC))


 * Hi, Highpeaks35. I thought the field "creator" is intended for mentioning a particular person. But I don't mind if you add the Jewish communities of Poland there. Concerning the "national cuisine", I don't know, how often one finds bagels in Poland today (someone can correct me), so for Poland it is probably only true historically. In addition, you should probably also add Canada because of Montreal bagels. --Off-shell (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your excellent input.


 * 1) I will add Jewish communities of Poland for "creator" as I do not see any policy that it needs to be a person.
 * 2) For national cuisine: I will add United States, Canada, and Israel.
 * Thanks again! (Highpeaks35 (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2019 (UTC))

Origin story
It seems disingenuous to claim that bagels are a Polish-Jewish invention. The history is a best far more complicated, at worst plain wrong. See for example https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2009/03/the-secret-history-of-bagels/6928/. It very much seems that they had their ultimate origin in German pretzels, which inspired Polish foodstuffs like obwarzanek (thanks in part to Germans migrating to Poland in the Middle Ages) and subsequent evolution of the bagel within Polish/Slavic communities, not specific to Jews. No doubt, Jewish groups were responsible for a great deal of the spread of bagels to North America as well as certain parts of Europe (e.g. Britain), though the bagel or very closely-related foods were already well-established in Germanic and Slavic Europe for centuries. The history section of this article and infobox very much need to be revised, it would seem. 2A02:C7F:7E8F:D00:2C83:756F:58A8:7643 (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)