Talk:Baháʼí Faith/Archive 10

Where's any mention of sects?
Are there even multiple sects of Bahá'í Faith? Because this article makes it seem like there aren't. Kirbytime 09:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There have been many splits and dissent within the Baha'i Faith since its beginnings, but these schisms either have not survived, or they are extremely minoritary. Nevertheless you are right, an encyclopaedia article should at least mention the main ones. --Jdemarcos 09:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually there are mentioned three times, once right at the top to a link in the disambiguation, once in the section on Coveneant, and once in the Baha'i administration section. -- Jeff3000 13:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

While Jeff3000 was writing that I was busy making a sitemap to help you find them from the main Baha'i article:


 * Teachings -> The Covenant -> Main article: Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh
 * -> Bahá'í divisions
 * -> Covenant-breakers
 * History -> Main article: Bahá'í history
 * -> The Báb -> Bahá'í/Bábí split
 * -> Bahá'í administration -> Shoghi Effendi

Hope that helps. -LambaJan 13:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * LambaJan, please notice that the sub-section on Mason Remey refers to him only as a Covenant-Breaker and not as the starter of several Baha'i splits. This is not a rational way to treat information about religious sects in an encyclopedia.


 * Jdemarcos, what are you talking about? The history link? Mason Remey is not the only one mentioned there. If you would like me to extend my work to include all of the ways someone can find splits from the history article I will. -LambaJan 00:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that Baha'i should see splits naturally just like any other big religion has splits, it is a normal process and it should not upset anyone. The fact that they are tiny sects only speaks in favor of the Baha'i Faith, not against it. --Jdemarcos 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Baha'is think that their religion's purpose is to bring unity to the entire human race. That is why the idea of splits within their own religion is regarded as a terrible and unnatural thing - not at all an easy, understandable human thing as you suggest.  You may be correct that the Baha'is are terribly up-tight about the concept of schism - but there is a reason for it - their founder, Baha'u'llah saw it as his central mission to bring unity.  So, I think you'll have an uphill struggle to convince Baha'is that schism and splits are no big deal PaulHammond 20:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't exactly put it that way. Yes, the main teaching of the Faith is unity, and yes there is disunity in the history of Baha'i divisions... This doesn't mean that Baha'is see the splits as being unnatural. On the contrary, many recognize the many ways in which they have unwittingly strengthened the Faith through their presence and their actions. A seemingly common analogy for this subject is a tree. In every season a branch is pruned and the tree grows taller. This is naturally a very painful process and this is why you see Baha'is becoming defensive and sometimes emotional about certain subjects, not because the splits exist, but because their presence and their comments and actions gives us a lot of work to do dispelling myths and such. -LambaJan 03:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether Baha'is are sensitive to divisions or not, or whether they are good for their growth or not, is irrelevant for an article in the Wikipedia. The issue here is if there have been divisions historically and how big and significant they are. Nobody likes divisions in their own religion but they do happen sometimes and a Wikipedia article should deal with them as objectively as possible. --Jdemarcos 22:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, Jdemarcos, but I'm reacting to the way you expressed yourself. You made a normative, moralising judgement "Baha'is should regard splits in thus and so way".  I was merely explaining some of the reasons you might not have been aware of why it is the fact that Baha'is aren't as relaxed and welcoming to the idea of their religion splitting up into sects as you think they should be.  As to the question of division, I think the article does already mention the controversies around Mason Remey and the supporters of Muhammad Ali, and anyone interested in finding out more will find that information.PaulHammond 10:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You're absolutely right. The statement I just made was POV, unencyclopedic and off the point. I made it as an aside simply as a point of interest. It is totally my opinion and carries no weight beyond that and has no place in the article. I decided to say it on the talk page because I thought that readers may like to know a bit more about how some Baha'is feel on this. -LambaJan 00:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia NPOV policies on undue weight apply. Collectively, these groups are, maybe, 5,000 people. The Bahá'ís are around 5,000,000 conservatively . MARussellPESE 13:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * MARussellPESE, you are surely aware that published stats (usually the Britannica stats are the ones quoted by everybody) have been challenged recently by several scholars. We lack stats of lapsed Baha'is and of ex-Baha'is who just leave the religion without telling anyone. This 5 million figure should be taken with caution. Of course the other Baha'i groups are counted only in the thousands but they deserve respect just as anyone else. --Jdemarcos 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding the statistics, please read an adherent.com discussion which discusses the reliability of the statistics, and notes that they don't represent active participants, but gives reasons that compared to the numbers quoted by other religions "On balance, while official Baha'i figures are not a measure of active participants, the proportion of participating adherents among claimed adherents is thought to be higher than average among the 'major religions' on this list." Thus the number is just as valid as any other religious population number. -- Jeff3000


 * Baha'i statistics goes into more detail on this. I think we should get away from a few ideas, one being that there is a big conspiracy to inflate numbers, read that page and you'll see that the NSA in the US has made efforts to keep the numbers accurate, and implemented additional steps to the enrollment process to avoid people signing up when they're not serious. We should also avoid pretending that we know the populations of Covenant-breaker groups. The largest group is the Orthodox, which may have around 1000, but nobody knows because they don't even attempt to document it. It just goes down from there, to the point where nobody can tell if they have more than a handful of people just making websites. If you go by verifiable published data or official sources, then they are virtually non-existent. Estimating CB groups at 5,000 total is quite generous, and estimating Baha'is as 5,000,000 is quite conservative, considering that it's the low-ball number given by the Baha'i world centre over a decade ago. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  23:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Jdemarcos, respectfully, even if one takes the Baha'is at 2 million (Probably the lowest number anybody's used with a straight face, but already debunked on Baha'i statistics), the ratio of sizes between the Baha'is and all the other Azali & Baha'i splinter-groups combined is about three orders of magnitude. (Personally, I take the 5 million as slightly conservative per Cuñado.)

The fact that they exist just doesn't get them over the policy hurdle on undue weight. It's not a matter of respect. I didn't set that bar. We didn't set that bar. That's wikipedia's bar. And this isn't Baha'i censorship. This is Baha'i and other editors relying on wikipedia policies.

As a geek-out aside: Christianity has about 2 billion members. If a the three-orders-of-magnitude rule for inclusion in a main article were applied, then the Christianity article would mention Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, all of whom consider themselves Christian, but are treated with varying degrees of hostility by Christians. Between the Sunni & Shi'a, Islam has about 1 billion. The Ahmadiyahs are credited with 10 million which would cross that rule if barely. (Source)

Both articles mention these groups in passing. The Islam article clearly identifies the Ahmdadiya as heretics to Muslims. This article likewise mentions, and links, to these groups and doesn't call them heretics. Comparing the three articles, they do seem balanced with respect to each other. And it does seem that there is an unofficial 1000:1 rule to merit a mention, but no more. MARussellPESE 14:09, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Please notice that the Christianity article includes a link to a List of Christian denominations, and the groups included in it do not seem to match the 1000:1 rule you mention. There is no such list in the Baha'i series box. If there is such a page, please include a link to it. --Jdemarcos 15:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI the web site of the Baha'i International Community refers to "more than five million Bahá’ís...." --Occamy 14:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we are talking here about neutral stats. --Jdemarcos 15:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Bahá'í statistics article has an other sources section which on average gives 5.3 million Baha'is (with a median of 5 million). If those teams of fact-checkers are not good enough for you then not much else can be said; you've made your mind up that everybody is wrong.  Furthermore the Bahá'í divisions page clearly goes through all of the schisms of the Baha'i Faith, even when they've only been two people.  A link to that page is given twice.   -- Jeff3000 15:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I never said that everybody is wrong, I just said that bahai.org is not a neutral site on Baha'i stats. Why are you so defensive? OTOH thanks for pointing out that there is a Bahá'í divisions page, which I have just read and it looks very complete although not the most NPOV article that I've read. Anyway, I'm not going to deal with that, since at least the article includes all main sects. Are there any plans to include a link in the Baha'i series box? --Jdemarcos 16:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I added it to the template. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  17:59, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Jdemarcos, good observation regarding the Christian denominations link. The Islam article is also very up-front over its various segments. I thought this article had been equally so by discussing these in the text.

However, Christianity's almost constant splintering and Islam's fracture into the Sunni/Shi'a seem significant characteristics of both faiths. If one used a 1000:1 rule, what would the metric be?
 * Total Christians:Church of Norway or Roman Catholics:Church of Norway
 * Total Muslims:Shi'a or Sunni:Shi'a
 * (These seem to be almost useless comparisons, which is why there really isn't likely to be a 1000:1 rule.)

The relative uniformity of the Baha'is is distinctive, and I'm not sure that spending a great deal of time discussing these actually does the subject justice. 

How's adding the divisions link to the template look. That's a very high-profile component of these articles.

On the statistics, I think you're running afoul of a very old debate that Jeff3000 and others were front-line combatants in. (I was afraid I'd be picking an old scab when I brought it up. Sorry all.) Indeed, you did not say everybody's wrong, but others have, and with a lot less tact. If you look over the talk page you'll find debate pattern repeatedly revolve around the Baha'i editors presenting as many non-Baha'i sources as they could find to justify a number lower than the "official" one only to be met with: "You lying bastard Baha'is deliberately inflate your numbers to make yourselves look pretty; and don't confuse me with your silly so-called neutral sources 'cause they're lying too." There's more than a little PTSD on this subject.

Do appreciate your thoughtful contributions. MARussellPESE 18:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I certainly am not one of those who insult the Baha'i Faith or degrade the quality of the articles. I am simply a non-Baha'i (although I think I am fairly familiar with its main tenets), and therefore my understanding and/or interpretation of some texts may be different from the interpretation by a Baha'i who is more familiar with some issues and ways of expression. I don't mind if numbers are higher or lower, or if there are many sects or there are none. For me it is no especial merit for a religion to have many followers or just a few, or if it has suffered many splits or none. I am simply interested in analyzing the human phenomenon called religion it its many different manifestations. I appreciate your openness to discuss matters and the flexibility of all participating editors to accept reasonable changes and proposals. --Jdemarcos 21:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I speak for all the Baha'i editors, that we thank you Jdemarcos for your edits in the Baha'i articles, and your openness in these discussions. If I have come up as curt in any discussion above, which I probably did, please accept my apologies. -- Jeff3000 21:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Can I have a hug? Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  00:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Female bahai marry at the age of 19?
I know that the number 19 is significant in the Bahai faith. Is it true that bahai women have to marry at the age of 19? And if that is true, what is the status of women that is over 19 and not married. And what is the big deal behind the number 19 anyways?

--Bushnaq 03:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello Bushnaq, No female (or males) don't have to marry at 19 or at any age for that matter. While marriage is seen as something that is spiritually positive, there is no requirement to marry.  The laws for marriage regarding men and women in the Baha'i Faith are the same, except that the man has to pay a dowry to the women.  You can see all the details of marriage in the Baha'i Faith in the article Baha'i marriage.


 * As to the number 9, both 9 and 19 are special in the Baha'i Faith. 9 is important because in the Abjad notation in Arabic, the word Baha (glory) adds up to 9.  As for the number 19, the word "Vahid" has a numerical value of 19, and means 'Unity', and for Baha'is it symbolizes the unity of God, and thus the number 19 itself symbolizes the unity of God, and it was used by the Báb in many respects (there were 18 apostles + himself = 19, and the basis of his calendar.  Hope this helps. -- Jeff3000 03:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry wrong! The age for marrying is set to 15 and marriage is obligatory! (Sorry I only have the German source of "Question and Answers" -> "Fragen & Antworten" p92 & Kitabi Aqdas about marriage §63) --193.171.99.108 09:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Konrad


 * Unfortunately you are wrong, the minimimum age to get married is 15, and marriage is not obligatory. From the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the book of laws:
 * "Marriage is highly recommended but not obligatory."
 * (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 149)
 * and
 * "Marriage is conditioned upon both parties having attained the age of maturity which is fixed at 15"
 * (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 149)
 * -- Jeff3000 13:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jeff! Are you quoting from the "Synopsis & Codification?". There its content has been obviously faked by the Bahai Administration. Here is the whole text: Aqdas §63: God hath prescribed ( in Elder & Miller (1961) translation: ordained ) matrimony unto you. Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. Konrad --193.171.99.75 08:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC) ERRATUM: in Questions & Answers there is really quoted that matrimony is not obligatory. Questions remain though! Why e.g. did B.U. force the pope and all his monks and clergymen to marry in his tablet to Pope Pius IX? Konrad --193.171.99.75 08:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Konrad. Since we're not talking about the article, I suggest we stop this thread of discussion, and if you have a specific question, you can ask on my talk page. You're asking valid questions about the Baha'i Faith, and I would like to respond, but this isn't the place. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  09:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Cunado! Thought we were discussing a deepening problem from this article. But the suspicion remains that there are still myths around the Bahai-Faith which seem to be unerasing even by Wikipedia. WFG Konrad --193.171.99.96 10:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Im curious, what are the sources of such myths? where did you got that from Bushnaq ? - --Cyprus2k1 10:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Baha'u'llah never uses the word ordain in the Kitab-i-Aqdas regarding marriage. The english translation is God hath prescribed matrimony unto you. Prescribe has the defintion of To set down as a rule or guide and indeed the Kitab-i-Aqdas is the book of laws, and in it he gives the laws of marriage.  He does stress the importance of marriage, but does not make it obligatory, he even makes it conditional upon the acceptance of all living parents.  Secondly even if you use the word ordain, ordain is a strong authorize, which means to give permission to, and again Baha'u'llah clearly stresses the importance of marriage, but does not make it obligatory.  And, regardless of how you interpret the statement from the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi were the appointed interpreters of Baha'u'llah's writings, and thus the codification and synopsys by Shoghi Effendi is an authoritative interpretation for Baha'is, thus Baha'i law and belief.  That's it. Also Cunado is right, Wikipedia is not a discussion forum-- Jeff3000 13:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

my last statement: the official German translation (http://recherche.bahai-studien.de/ok.php?a=SHOWTEXT&d=/de/Bahaitum/Authentisches%20Schrifttum/Bahaullah/Kitab-i-Aqdas.txt): "Gott hat euch den Ehestand verordnet". "Verordnet" can mean "prescribed" as well as "decreed". May as it will, it doesn't make a big difference, if you are discriminated within a Bahai-society because you are unmarried or if you reject marriage against an obligation if something would exist! Konrad --193.171.99.107 15:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I really don't understand. The Kitab-i-Aqdas, and it's synopsys and codification are authoritative Baha'i documents.  If someone accepts the Baha'i Faith, then they accept the authoritative writings of Shoghi Effendi, which clearly makes marriage optional (though it is highly suggested).  Marriage is conditional on the two partners agreeing, as well as all living biological parents agreeing.  No doubt, the Baha'i writings clearly indicate that marriage is very good, and can lead to spiritual upliftment for each individual, as well as unifying two families, and also allowing for the continuation of humanity, but it is still optional.  I have never seen anyone in Baha'i community life being discriminated against for not being a married (I'm not married), and there is no undue stress from the community to get married.  -- Jeff3000 15:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, except stress from parents who want grandchildren - but this is true everywhere. :)  However, I don't know what Konrad is going on about.  I have never heard, in my 17 years being a Baha'i, of community pressure to get married.  The Guardian made it clear that if a Baha'i goes through his life forever unmarried, that he should not consider his life's purpose to be unfulfilled.  There's no more clear designation of marriage's optional nature than that.  And from no less a source than the Guardian.


 * 1267. Moral Duty to Marry but Marriage is Not an Obligation
 * "...Of course, under normal circumstances, every person should consider it his moral duty to marry. And this is what Bahá'u'lláh has encouraged the believers to do. But marriage is by no means an obligation. In the last resort it is for the individual to decide whether he wishes to lead a family life or live in a state of celibacy."
 * (From letter of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 3, 1936; cited by the Universal House of Justice, in a letter to an individual believer, February 6, 1973) - Lights of Guidance, p. 378)


 * I don't think it's possible to argue honestly that an unmarried Baha'i could be subject to community sanction or pressure, unless that community was somehow unaware of the guidance from the Guardian. -- Christian Edward Gruber 15:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 193.171.99.108 where did you get the idea that there is somekind of pressure in the community for getting married?? im 22 years old and im not married. the youngest age i remember a youth getting married is 23, which i guess is the average age most people(betwen 23-27) since after than you should have finished college and got a good job. - --Cyprus2k1 18:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK! I have to answer, but now really for the last time: I've been Bahai for ~10 years and I got acquainted with a lot of converts who actually never intented to marry but they did it after joining the faith. I dont want to talk about how Bahais wanted to persuade me to do it either. That in the current situation, where Bahai isn't the dominating power of society, there can be no obligation to marry doesn't mean that this obligation has been abolished, because simply within a modern democratic society you cant force somebody to such a behaviour! But be it as it may: it doesn't make that big of difference if you are discriminated (what would be obviously!) or criminalized when you decide for your own to remain unmarried. Konrad --193.171.99.107 08:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * 193.171.99.107, i know for a fact that there is no obligation or pressure in the bahai community for marriage whatsoever, However, some CULTURES/COUNTRIES may have this kinda of mentality that people should get married, i know this happens sometimes (thourgh i dont know any cases in the bahai community) with muslims, christians, or even agnostiscs, its not related with religion itself. I guess parents feel better/safer if theyre children get married. but again its not related with religion itself or the bahai faith itself.
 * Further, for arguments sake ,even if this has happened in some community, In this article we are writing about the bahai faith itself and the bahai community in general and not some particular (black sheep) community - --Cyprus2k1 08:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * if you are a bahai and this actually happens in your particular community, then i suggest you bring it up to the competent bodies, such as the national assembley or even the house of justice. I agree that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum, so if you want to discuss this further, you can contact me in my talk page or go to a bahai forum such as planet bahai. all the best :) - --Cyprus2k1 08:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Emerging Global Religion
"emerging global religion" is a correct statement. The Baha'i Faith is comparitevly small to Christianity and Islam and is growing, thus emerging. It is the second most widespread religion as determined by Encyclopedia Brittanica and thus global, and it is a religion. -- Jeff3000 16:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It may be correct but it is also POV. "Emerging Global Faith" is the name of a book by a member of the UHJ - isn't that strong indication in itself how POV it is? How many other "emerging global religions" do you know? When have you ever heard any on ouside the BF refer to it as an "emerging global religion"?


 * Baha'is see themselves - for theological rather than academic reasons - as on a par with Islam, Christianity etc because Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation alongside (or in some ways superior to) Muhammed, Jesus etc. However from a sociological perspective the Baha'i Faith has much more in common with smaller new religious movements like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Ahmadi, Hare Krishnas, Brahma Kumaris. Hence it would be better to say, for example, "The Baha'i Faith is a religion founded in the nineteenth century..." AndrewRT 19:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Andrew, I fail to see the logic here. The Baha'i Faith is a global religion, and in the past 25 years it has (by any standard) emerged from obscurity. Non-Baha'i sources confirm this, and even MacEoin, a noted anti-Baha'i author, wrote:
 * "the movement has had remarkable success in establishing itself as a vigorous contender in the mission fields of Africa, India, parts of South America, and the Pacific, thus outstripping other new religions in a world-wide membership of perhaps 4 million and an international spread recently described as second only to that of Christianity. The place of Baha'ism among world religions now seems assured."
 * In another place Peter Smith writes:
 * ". . . massive expansion of the religion has occurred [in the last thirty years], so that Baha'i claims to the status of a world religion now begin to appear credible. This expansion has also completely transformed the religion's social basis: what was formerly a predominantly Iranian religion with a small but significant Western following has become a world-wide religious movement, with its major membership in the Third World and with an enormous diversity of followers in terms of religious and ethnic backgrounds." (Smith, Survey 83)
 * Cuñado [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  20:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

AndrewRT, please see the article New religious movements for a rather complete treatment of the subject. The Bahá'í Faith is not an NRM. Neither are the others you cite.

A significant distinction between the Bahá'í Faith and the others you note is that it is not a derivative of an existing faith. Each of your examples are. To a greater or lesser extent, each is viewed as theologically suspect, at least, by their mainstream faiths. Many, in good faith, consider these heretical. Nobody, in good faith, mistakes the Bahá'í Faith for a heretical sect of Islam.

With its own, stand-alone, body of "inspired text", doctrine, institutional character, rites, etc. it, in fact, is on par with Islam, Christianity, etc. in ways the others you refer to are not.

That said, this religion isn't "emerging" anymore, so I'd rather drop this adjective. MARussellPESE 20:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Calendar
There is, to my knowledge, no compulsion to strictly use the Arabic names for the calendar's subdivisions. I don't think there is any guidance either way; the communities I've been in usually use either the English alone, or both, but never just the Arabic. Keldan 00:46, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Should we just strike that comment then? Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  01:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say that unless we can find corroborating evidence of such a policy, we should probably strike it. Keldan 02:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

What is the rule on adding other Baha'i links?
I tried adding a link of a site I run, which is hosted on blogger. I do not have any ads because I don't want to use the Faith to make money. It is a site that is updated often, hosting quotes from the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha for the most part. There are occasional comments and discussions. Though it is hosted on Blogger, it is not site with personal rants, personal promotion, personal blogging. It is a site so people can receive Baha'i quotes in their own RSS readers or come for pre-selected Readings.

I do understand the danger of linking to such sites on the other hand.

There are some sites that claim to be Baha'i but seem to be sowing doubts in others' minds. If we allow any site that claims to be Baha'i to be added under "other Baha'i links"  then soon this site could be flooded with links that do not represent the Baha'i Faith accurately, causing confusion and misunderstanding.

I also understand that sites run by an individual,regardless of who hosts it and how it may look now, the site could "hook people in" and then turn around and do something misleading. (Which un such a case the link should be taken down.) The trustworthiness of a site and the individual running the site is something that could not easily be established.

So I understand the want to control what gets on here, but I am not sure if the review process was fair either, as the link was taken off very quickly, claiming it was a link spam of a sort. Perhaps there is a guidline some where which I do not know about. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaijin21 (talk • contribs).


 * I can't answer it exactly what the "Rule" is, but in general this is an encyclopaedia. The issue isn't control of content, it's cleanliness of the article.  It is not about "representing the Baha'i Faith" in an advocacy sense, nor about adding every possible link in the internet universe that might be of interest.  Therefore, sites that have material referenced in the article, or that are informational articles themselves that might shed light on the topic would be considered relevant.  However, applications, sales sites, unless seen to be highly relevant, wouldn't be linked to.  I suspect Jeff3K removed your link because while you blog writings, there is a link to library.bahai.org which is a reference site itself.  The selection of writings in a blog, or the opinins expressed in a blog are not really encyclopoedic, and while a particular blog might be referenced if its content is cited in an article, linking to the blog site itself starts to get in to spreading opinion, rather than verifiable information on the topic.


 * There are many sites that Baha'is would not consider to be representative of the Baha'i Faith, but a neutral observer would see as nevertheless connected, because such a neutral observer wouldn't be examining the Baha'i Faith from the context of a believer, nor from the context of any particular interpretation of the Covenant. Because of this, this article cannot always have a set of links that are "comfortable" for Baha'is, but the editors try to keep Baha'i, non-Baha'i, and oppositional external links to those that could be considered "sources" for the articles, or "see also" informational links.


 * If you think it's worth inclusion, think of why it might be included in a Britannica or a World Book encyclopaedia, and make the argument. Most people here are reasonable.  The snap decision probably has more to do with a conservative position on article change, because there has been so much adding of irrelevant links, POV material, etc.  Cheers.  --Christian Edward Gruber 11:50, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Christian. A couple other points: (1) currently there are already too many links, and unless a link provides something quite unique I think it should be removed.  All the writings are already linked (multiple times I should add).  (2) Also, to remain neutral Baha'is can't just add every Baha'i website; currently there are a fair share of third-party websites. (3) Most importantly though is that blogs are not allowed to be links in Wikipedia.  From the External links style guide: "Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to."  Regards, -- Jeff3000 14:19, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

History

 * Main article: Bahá'í history


 * Bahá'ís regard the period from the Báb's 1844 declaration in Shiraz, to the 1921 passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá, as the Heroic, or the Apostolic Age of the Faith. This was the age when its founders lived, its martyrs died, and its foundations were established in several countries around the world.


 * After `Abdu'l-Bahá's passing, the Faith entered the Formative Age, which would be characterized by its rising administrative institutions, worldwide expansion, and a transition into the future Golden Age, the consummation of the Bahá'í dispensation.

Uh, yeah, that is totally coherent.24.254.232.33


 * It is verifiable information, see God Passes By. -- Jeff3000 17:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

pronunciation
The pronunciation of (ba-haa-ee) was changed to ( or ). The average person has no idea what those IPA pronunciation characters mean, and they still won't know how to pronounce the word. Even worse, now the intro has a bunch of extra stuff in it which is distracting. I suggest we change it back to the readable version. Cuñado  -  Talk  19:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, let's change it back. -- Jeff3000 20:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not a fan of that transliteration because it's not clear whether the vowels are long or short or if there are any pauses. I suggest keeping the IPA and, if you feel it necessary, re-add the other version. -LambaJan 22:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I really disagree with using the IPA version. I would rather not add phonetics than use that. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  00:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why we can't use both. The Appalachia article does so quite well.  I agree that having the general transliteration is good for laypeople, but IPA is an international standard (which, Heaven knows, Bahá'ís are all about) which is both unambiguous and really useful.  I think both easily qualify as useful information - let's keep them both.  Keldan 02:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Intro
I don't think 'Persian exile' is the most appropriate two word characterization of Baha'u'llah. He was not an exile by profession or trade or for any reason that isn't associated with this religion. He was a nobleman before He was exiled for being a Babi.

Also this 'three onenesses as a theological doctrine' seems a little out of place in the intro to me. The whole 'three onenesses' thing is an exogenous construct and the concepts it conveys were not directly referred to in such a way in the Writings. I almost never hear Baha'is talking about three onenesses, not even when presenting the Faith to others. Instead I more often hear the central teachings presented in terms of the Covenant and several concepts of unity that include but aren't limited to the three onenesses. The Covenant is MUCH more central than any of these other things. I think that whole paragraph should be removed. -LambaJan 23:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you on the persian exile wording, it should be improved. In regards to the Three Onenesses, I agree that most Baha'is don't use the term, but the term is not used in the intro (just linked, we could remove the link).  The three unities (or whatever you call them) are central to Baha'i teachings, especially the Unity of Humankind, which Shoghi Effendi has stated in WOB, and the Unity of religions (or progessive relevation) is also of fundamental importance.  The Oneness of God, while not being stressed because we live in a Monotheistic society, I also believe is fundamental; if Baha'is didn't believe in the Oneness of God much of the prayer, fasting, and other practices would not be the same.  I would keep all three of those links there.  The wording could be changed to take away the "interlocking unities", but I think the Unities should be linked.


 * As to regard of the Covenant I would not bring it up in the intro. While a distinguishing feature of the Baha'i Faith it does not show what Baha'is believe in, and becomes applicable only after someone has accepted Baha'u'llah. -- Jeff3000 23:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not a fan of how the teachings are handled on all the pages. It seems like it could use a good re-organizing. I think what teaching is important to whom is different for everybody. The "three onenesses" I think are the most common teachings first thrown out. After that might be something like universal language or world peace. I don't think Covenant is usually an introductory issue, unless you are referring to the Greater Covenant and the fulfillment of past dispensations. Maybe you could offer a suggestion for a new intro?? Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  00:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

In this case I was referring to the Greater Covenant. And, while these three onenesses are of a rather fundamental nature, they're usually given along with oneness of science and religion and a whole string of other ones. I know harmony is usually the word in that case, but it's a bit of a semantic difference. I guess I would be happier if we threw out the exogenous framework and presented the teachings more in a manner in which they're presented to us. If we reworded the link to in some way emphasize that this is just a framework for presenting some of the teachings in a way that you can dip your feet into then that would be enough for me right now. I could think about a new intro. Right now we seem to agree on the exile bit, so if anyone has a thought of what to change that to, then by all means, -LambaJan 12:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not fond of "three onenesses" as an expression either. I was at Davison (now LouHelen) when the song was written and had to suffer with that insipid song for more than a decade growing up. (It's number one on a dear friend's hysterical ten-worst-Baha'i-songs-ever list.)


 * However, the concept that the first duty is recognition of the Manifestation, and the second: obedience to them, has apriori assumptions that there is a God, that He repeatedly reveals Himself to us all, and that we are all expected to know Him and love Him. These are "interlocking unities" and the Three Onenesses article treats them well. These do seem to be "core" beliefs. Discussion of the Greater Covenant is, in my opinion, an outward expression of these beliefs, and runs the risk of being jargon-laced.


 * Growing up in Alabama, I found that if the very first thing out of my mouth was not "I believe in God", it was pretty much assumed that I did not. So I think we need to assume nothing of the reader.


 * I'd be interested, LambaJan, in what you'd rather see.


 * On "persian exile", I do not have problem with that, He did spend more than half of his life in exile. God Passes By uses the adjective several times in this context. (pp. 149, 160, 164-167, 173, etc.) He also admonishes to "remember my days ... and my distres and banishment..." Certainly exile was something that affected his family life and career.


 * Off-hand, I can't think of an NPOV adjective. If it's to be "persian prophet", some storm-trooper is inevitably going to make it "persian pseudo-prophet", "so-called prophet", "would-be prophet". What a bloody mess. MARussellPESE 12:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I made a couple changes that are enough to satisfy me but, going by what was said, are probably not going to bother anyone. Maybe the exile part will. I just deleted that whole bit. MWAHAHAHAHA!!

Cunado, how would you like to see the intro changed? Were you thinking of a whole rewrite from a different angle, or just a bit of nitpicking like myself? -LambaJan 03:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me, I've just added the date back so it gives the reader an idea of the timeline. Hope that is ok. -- Jeff3000 04:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I was referring to perhaps cleaning up the several pages on the teachings... three onenesses, Progressive revelation, Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion, etc. I think they need to all stem off naturally from the Baha'i teachings article, which they don't. That might include a lot of moving and deleting. Cleaning up those would help clean up the beliefs section here. Over the next month I don't have time to do anything more than spot checking, so I was just throwing that out while we're talking about how to present the teachings. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  05:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have not a lot of time, but having created some of those pages with this exact kind of related article structure in mind, I'm grateful it might be dawning. As far as I am able (time-wise) I'll contribute. --Christian Edward Gruber 12:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

meaning of Bahá
this online dictionary translates Bahá as :MAGNIFICENCE, GLORY, ECLAT, RADIANCE, GLITTER

Someone just added the definition of "light" to the page. I would like to delete it because it distracts from the point, and there is no reason "light" should have priority over "radiance" or "magnificence" or even "glitter". Glory and splendor gives an idea of the meaning. We don't want to be known as "the people of the glitter". Cuñado  -  Talk  16:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes light does not reflect the meaning, radiance does moreso, but I think glory and splendour are good enough. -- Jeff3000 16:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh... "people of the glitter". Makes me want to go to a rave.  That's it... "people of the glow-stick".  That aughta appeal to the under-25 set.  Wow Cunado19, you've really thrown my brain into a strange place. :)  --Christian Edward Gruber 18:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is a whitewash
Where are all the controversies, and things that make this cult look as bad as it deserves to? An innocent reader might walk away thinking that the Bahai Faith is united, up-to-date, and on the march. Fuck you, Baha'is--and fuck Wikidia's presumption of "good faith." I can see what you're doing and I promise, you won't get away with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.126.125.111 (talk • contribs).
 * Actually most of the so-called critical aspects of the Baha'i Faith are already mentioned in the article as fact. No women on the house of justice, the divisions, that covenant-breakers are shunned, and that homosexuality is not allowed.  Moreover, more than 99% of all Baha'is are part of one group.  I have reverted your addition due to Wikipedia's Undue Weight policy, it is a point of view held by a very small minority of people, and it is dealt with accordingly in a subpage according to many different Wikipedia policies. -- Jeff3000


 * I'm entirely failing to see how the anonymous author above can structure complaints against assumptions of good faith manage to sit within a paragraph that shouts prejudicial obscenities. There's also a logical falacy that's rather amusing. Either anonymous is shouting at baha'i generically, in which case he must believe that they are at least united and on the march, or he's merely smearing and tarring those supposed "poor benighted victims of a cult" whom he feels are victims.  It occurs to me that, if this were more sincere than the religious equivalent of outright racism, then it would be phrased with more care.  However, it does seem clear that this author/editor has no interest in preserving wikipedia, since he abandons all decorum and hurls abuse, entirely in contravention of wikipedia policy on personal attacks and harassment.  I had seen the edits, but not this vitriol, initially and believed, for a moment, that there could be a good-faith effort from all parts to improve this article.  I, for one, am thoughouly disappointed.


 * You'd think a declared opponent of a religion would display some more finesse. If I were interested in pilloring an identifiable group, I would, at least, attempt to make my own case somewhat sympatethic, or so I imagine not having any such inclination.  This, sadly, was just a pathetic flailing out of a clearly frustrated soul.  I'm not even sure why Jeff3000 answered it directly.  Truly sad.  Whatever he thinks Baha'is are trying to "get away with", it won't be stopped by juvenile ad hominem.  Perhaps if said editor were to propose some changes that met wikpedia's standards or relevance, verifiability, and NPOV, he might have somewhere to move.  Indeed, however, this editor displays similar behaviour to others who have merely lurked on this page and others, only to harrass the Baha'is present, and generally distort the presentation of the Baha'i Faith.  The Baha'is who are editors here have displayed remarkable ability to absorb views with which they do not agree, and work very hard (as to the other editors, of course).  Those who have spent enough time here, without at all implying perfection, surely recognize this.  --Christian Edward Gruber 18:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

True baha'i has some cult like qualities, but one must remember that a cult is not a bad thing, but a early stage in a religion's life. islam was a cult, christianity was a cult, buddhism was a cult, ect. Pure inuyasha 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

While the baha'i faith has some stuff that makes some people in this day and age suspicious, One must remember what I said above. and baha'i is all about unity. if that unity is under threat does it not make sence to try to preserve it? Pure inuyasha 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Usefull image?
I found at the serbian wikipedia. What do you think? Pure inuyasha 15:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really like it. It's too busy, not english, and it wouldn't fit in any of the sections. -- Jeff3000 15:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

someone could traslate it. erhaps it could be put into a section on manifestations of god. Pure inuyasha 18:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC) I have more http://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şəkil:Haifa-Bahai_world_center_front.jpg http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soubor:Baha%27i_arc_from_archives.jpg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Bahaitemple_terraced_gardens.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:B5a_delhi700.jpg http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bahai_shrine.jpg http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irudi:Haifa-Bahai.jpg and a look at wikimedia commons wouldn't hurt. Pure inuyasha 18:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * yes, all these images are on commons and .  This page has enough figures at the moment though. -- Jeff3000 18:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Restructure of beliefs/teachings.
Greetings. I have done some initial restructuring within the beliefs section. I feel that teachings, beliefs, and laws belong in a single section with a better breakdown, and a quick two or three paragraph intro at the top. Right now things are really scattered, with Demographics sitting in the middle. Given how integrated baha'i beliefs and their social practices and political and legal philosophies are, they really need to be tied together, or we'll have way too much duplication. In the process, the whole thing should read more encyclopedic and should flow much more naturally. All of the information there should remain fairly consistent, except to be hopefully not repeated several times in several sections. --Christian Edward Gruber 04:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations generally included in References section, vs. by tags.
Hey all. We have a list of references in the "References" section, but we have many of these duplicated in &lt;ref&gt; tags. Does it make sense to remove items cited in the References section that appear in the citations using the new footnote referencing system? -- Christian Edward Gruber
 * Yes it does, let's get rid of those that are duplicated. -- Jeff3000 12:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. If the formatting is done properly we shouldn't need a separate references at all. Every time something is referenced it can be footnoted to the notes. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  18:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge beliefs and teachings
I mean, isn't it the same thing? Pure inuyasha 21:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. Beliefs are generally held beliefs and explain the Baha'i view on history and other religions, and the teachings are much more specific. -- Jeff3000 07:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I kind of agree with both of you. Jeff3000, they are different, and should be sectioned appropriately, but Pure Inuyasha, they are highly related, and teachings (particularly social practices and priorities) stem from Baha'i beliefs.  I think that some combination of the sections would make sense, but I'm still playing with how, to achieve both the right level of verbosity, right level of clarity, and clean sectioning to make it a high-quality wikipedia section. --Christian Edward Gruber 14:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hud was a Manifestation of God?
What's the reference for Baha'is believing Hud to be a manifestion of God? I've never heard that claimed before. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.178.83.26 (talk • contribs).


 * I noticed that, too, but forgot to change it. As I understand, no, Húd was not considered a Manifestation, but is considered to be a prophet of importance (like the prophets of the Old Testament), and is mentioned in the Kitáb-i-Íqán (§ 9). Keldan 19:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * He was, as all the prophets are Manifestations. The question is are they Manifestations of God endowed with constancy.  Some relevant quotes:


 * In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by Bahá'u'lláh, He reveals the following: "The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations 'endowed with constancy.'" - Shoghi Effendi, Quoting Abdu'l-Baha in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 111


 * "The Prophets 'regarded as One and the same person' include the Lesser Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a 'Book". The station is different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that of ours. - From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 8, 1949, Quoted in Lights of Guidance, p. 498


 * "Regarding your questions: We cannot possibly add names of people we (or anyone else) think might Lesser Prophets to those found in the Qur'án, the Bible and our own Scriptures. For only these can we consider authentic Books." - From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 13, 1950, Quoted in Lights of Guidance, p. 503


 * "We know no more about the prophets mentioned in the Íqán than what Bahá'u'lláh states in that Book." - From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 25, 1950, quoted in Lights of Guidance, p. 503


 * Here Baha'u'llah (by comparison) describes Hud and Salih in a similar pattern to Jesus, in the matter of their persecution. This is not conclusive, but it is an implicitly powerful comparison:


 * Thou hast dealt with the children of the Apostle of God as neither Ad hath dealt with Hud, nor Thamud with Salih, nor the Jews with the Spirit of God (Jesus), the Lord of all being. - Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 100


 * In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah not only refers to Hud by means of a Quranic quote, but describes him as a successor-prophet to Noah thusly:


 * And after Noah the light of the countenance of Hud shone forth above the horizon of creation. For well-nigh seven hundred years, according to the sayings of men, He exhorted the people to turn their faces and draw nearer unto the Ridvan of the divine presence. What showers of afflictions rained upon Him, until at last His adjurations bore the fruit of increased rebelliousness, and His assiduous endeavours resulted in the willful blindness of His people. "And their unbelief shall only increase for the unbelievers their own perdition."[1 Qur'án 35:39.] - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 8


 * `Abd'ul-Baha describes Hud with this same comparison of God's chosen messenger persecuted:


 * The wicked people of Thamud who manifested fierce hostility towards Salih were unable to withstand His indomitable power. Likewise, the tribes of 'Ad perpetrated revolting outrages, but the spiritual sword of Hud remained unsheathed and the divinely-kindled light proved unquenchable. Although the clash of the arms of the wretched Nimrod reached the ears of all peoples, he failed to suppress the glory of Abraham. The misguided Copts marshalled their troops against Moses, yet could not engage Him in battle. The Jews who gainsaid God's Cause aroused violent commotion, regarded the Beauty of the Promised One [Jesus] as a fire no longer bright, stirred up fierce opposition and launched a campaign of attacks and aggression against Him, but in the end their opposition proved of no avail. The leaders of Hijaz inflicted grievous ordeals and atrocities upon the Prince of Mecca [Muhammad], tormented and injured Him as much as it lay in their power, until their assaults grew so vehement that the Lord of the righteous migrated unto Medina where He proclaimed the Word of God. Later, various kindreds and peoples leagued themselves together, waged tribal war and encircled that focal Centre of Light from every direction, but failed to subdue Him. This is but a brief account of past experiences. - Abdu'l-Baha, cited in Fire and Light, p. 30


 * Taherzadeh has an appendix on Hud and Salih, which begins as follows:


 * APPENDIX I


 * The People of 'Ad and Thamud; Hud; Salih and the She-Camel


 * These names mentioned in the Lawh-i-Burhan (Chapter 6 above) appear in various chapters of the Qur'án. Hud and Salih were prophets of God who appeared before Abraham, but they are not mentioned in the Old or the New Testament. The people of 'Ad and Thamud inhabited a large tract of country in Southern Arabia. Tradition has it that 'Ad was a fourth-generation descendant of Noah. His people, who are said to be of a tall race, were idolators and aggressive people. In the Qur'án it is stated that the People of both 'Ad and Thamud were fine builders, gifted with intelligence and skills, but that they were guided by the Evil One, Satan.


 * God chose Hud to be a prophet to the people of 'Ad. He too is said to be a fourth-generation descendant of Noah, and therefore a cousin of 'Ad. Hud proclaimed to his people that God had chosen him as a prophet, and preached to them the one true God and the destruction of their idols. But they rejected him and only a few became his followers. When the people did not respond to his preaching, he warned them of an impending calamity. This took place, and all perished except Hud and his followers. The nature of this calamity is given in the Qur'án:


 * ... and Ad were destroyed by a roaring and furious wind; which God caused to assail them for seven nights and eight days successively: thou mightest have seen people, during the same, lying prostrate, as though they had been the roots of hollow palm-trees, and couldst thou have seen any of them remaining?'(1)


 * According to tradition Hud is buried in Hadhramaut, in the south of the Arabian peninsula.
 * -Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 4, p. 424


 * Anyway, I know that's probably too much information :) I was just reading up on Hud recently, so I had it handy.  As I said below, don't hesitate to remove Hud from the list, since it is basically a list of Manifestations 'endowed with constancy', but I think this might be fuel for the Manifestation of God article. --Christian Edward Gruber 18:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

well from what he's done he sure seems like a M.O.G. 154.20.174.31 02:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The above comment was made by me, i forgot to log in. Pure inuyasha 02:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I added Hud, on the basis of his Qur'anic inclusion and mention by Baha'u'llah. However, because the title article does not describe the distinction between  Manifestation of God "endowed with constancy" vs. those not so endowed, it might be reasonable to remove Hud from that list.  I would add him to the article on Manifestation, especially if that article can elaborate on these so-called "major" and "minor" manifestations.  The old-testament prophets map fairly closely to Baha'u'llah's concept of Manifestations of God who are not endowed with constancy - they are all Manifestations of God, but not at the same rank or level.  It's a subtle point of Baha'i theology, and one not often mentioned, because it has little practical impact on Baha'i practice.  Please don't feel constrained to remove Hud from the main article, in other words. --Christian Edward Gruber 16:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow - your scholarship is stellar! I've never seen half of these quotes before, and I've mined pretty deep.  I certainly have no desire to touch the main article now.  I'll see what I can dig up on the "endowed with constancy" issue, in the meantime.  Thanks for your great work! Keldan 03:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the references to Hud. When I clicked on the link in the Baha'i Faith article however, it took me to a generic reference to Hud and not the Hud (prophet) link, which might be more appropriate in this case. I too would very much like to know more about the distinction between being "endowed with constancy" - I'm not quite sure what this means - and otherwise. It seems to me this is a rather important distinction related to the spiritual reality of the Manifestations of God.

With respect to Hud, as I continued moving around in Wikipedia, the Hud article mentions that he may also be one and the same as the prophet Eber, mentioned in the Old Testament, who like Hud, was the sole survivor (along with his family) of a calamity. In Eber's case, it was the destruction of the Tower of Babel. It's a bit off topic, I know, moving into the realm of the connection between Quranic and Biblical texts, but nevertheless interesting.

I'm really enjoying your contributions CEG and learning quite a lot. Thank you once again! Caloosa 15:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Life after Death
Where do I find something about this subject in this article? --84.162.84.66 21:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * An extremely good question, and one that is, embarassingly, not really mentioned in the article. Now that I think of it, it's kind of strange that it not be here.  I will try to make a short version of an answer to this question right in the article.  In the mean-time, a more fleshed-out answer should really be in a daughter-article. --Christian Edward Gruber 22:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added a few words, which are wholely inadequate, but should suffice as a summary. I'll try to reference it later, but for now I have to run.  A whole article could be written on this topic. --Christian Edward Gruber 22:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll have to start a daughter article, but for the meanwhile, here are two links that somewhat explain it (one and two). In a quick summary, Baha'is believe that there is life after death, and that the soul continues to progress towards God in the spiritual worlds.  Heaven and hell are not physical places, but the states of being close to and far from God respectively.  There is a continum of being close to God (not just close or far). -- Jeff3000 23:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have just got of the phone with an LSA member for our community, I was a national delegate to the election of the National Spiritual Assemble in New Zealand, and our dicussion looked at the use of technology to improve consultation. Text messages, Phone trees for LSA members to make quick decissions after feast on recommendations, having all the community with access to the internet and broad band. My grandparents have all passed away, there names on the maternal side are Jessy and Alfie Marks, on Dads side, Walter and Alison Young. I have just said a prayer for them, Allah u Abha and for my parents. The souls of my grandparents, who are dead, and the souls of my parents, who are alive, are influenced by my prayer for them. Advancement of a soul towards God can be progressed and like wise the soul can also be retarded in its progress. An example of regress is the matter of back biting. Those that back bite about another soul retard their own souls, both the speaker and the listener, as well as the soul they are talking about, who may or may not hear. Life after death is very real in the Baha i faith and protection of our soul and others is very important.RoddyYoung 08:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * IMO the teachings about the Human Soul and Life after Death are very essential to understand all of the other Bahai teachings. --Mipago 11:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Special wedding requirements
A friend of mine just got his Marriage License in the Province of Alberta, and two of the vows "no mental/physical abuse, acknowledge that spouse is not property" are apparently optional, and you do not have to take them if you are being married by the Bahai. Curious as to why this sort of culture is not mentioned in the marriage section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.148.42.175 (talk • contribs).


 * Hello 68.148.42.175, I do not know where you got the quote "no mental/physical abuse, acknowledge that spouse is not property". This is not a vow in the Baha'i Faith.  It is not written anywhere in the Baha'i writings or in Wikipedia, and I have not seen it anywhere else, or heard it at any Baha'i ceremony.  The only obligatory vow is We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God.".  -- Jeff3000 18:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the question was... in Canada they have that vow (about no abuse). Why is such a vow not part of Baha'i culture?
 * The concepts of no abuse and spouse is not property are implicitly part of a Baha'i marriage. Baha'is generally focus on positive and not negatives, so the vows being "We will all, verily, abide by the will of God" cover such things. By saying to treat the spouse with respect and dignity, it is implied that physical/mental abuse, along with a plethora of other vices are not allowed. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  18:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Cunado19 has it. By accepting the Baha'i vow, one accepts to abide by the will of God.  There are explicit Baha'i texts and guidance that prohibit spousal abuse and prohibit and nullify slavery (ie, humans as property).  The reason the vows aren't explicit is that these assumptions are part of the package.  I wouldn't include after the Baha'i vow that "I furthermore vow that I will breathe and say my prayers and eat."  It would be redundant, as they are necessary parts of existing.


 * Lastly, even if in Alberta a secular individual who got married by a Justice of the Peace were to omit that optional vow, but then beat his wife, he would still be tossed in Jail. The vow is an explicit recognition of something that is implicitly, but legally in force regardless of his acknowledgement.  Similarly the Baha'i, should he abuse his wife or treat her as property would be in violation of the laws and teachings, regardless of whether or not he agreed explicitly to refrain from doing so. --Christian Edward Gruber 18:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Birjand and Baha'i History
Hello all, I had some Questions related to the articel Birjand which could open another perspective and extend the Article. Does Someone know something about the last History of Birjand? Why could Shah Seyyed Ali Kazemi become a shah? Only because the most people in Moud are related with him? And why nobody says anything about him? Why Alam could bought the whole land Birjand and the palace named Alam palace? Was Kazemi related with Qavam his daughter was married with Alam and his son was married with the sister of the Shah 'Ashraf'? Which relation existed between the Shah and prime minister Alam and the baha'i Kazemi? Why could a former officer distantly related with Shah and a dervish named Shadanloo have so many power to compel the Kazemi related with Alam to convert from Baha'i faith into Shia Islam. How can a rich, brothel user and brutal person be a dervish? And why he forces other believer to islam? Why has the crown prince no titles anymore? Was the Amir of Gha'enaat Alam also a Baha'i? And hates the supreme leader the Baha'is because he was arrested in Birjand and Alam destroyed the islamic movement of the time? Why the Shadanloo didn't compel other related Mirkazemi families to islam, too?! Please give every information you have. ThanksCommit 09:15, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Commit. You have asked a very specific question about a very specific set of events and people.  I'd be surprised if you find answers.  The Baha'is who are common editors here are quite an international crowd and are not likely to be up on local affairs.  Further, as far as I have been able to determine, the Shah and members of his regime were quite opposed to Baha'is, and I suspect that, since the term Baha'i is often used in Iran to paint political enemies, regardless of their religiosity, many people whom you have heard to be Baha'is in positions of power were probably not.  Lastly, there is not "Supreme leader of Baha'i" in the sense of an individual.  No individual has any power within the Baha'i Faith.  Only our elected councils, called Spiritual Assemblies have any authority in the community.  I think much of your information is suspect, being apparently largely rumor, and it will be very difficult for you to get clear information.  Cheers. --Christian Edward Gruber 12:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Shah Seyyed Kazemi from Birjand that you are referring to is not related to the to Siyyid Kazim, who was the teacher of Mulla Husayn, who himself was the first believer of the Bab. Siyyid Kazim, the Shahyki leader from whose movement the first Babis came out of lived in 1793-1843.  The Shah Seyyed Kazemi, you are refferring to, came about three generations later.  Thus they have nothing to do with eachother.


 * Also, just as Christian noted, people who were in positions of power in Iran were for the very very large majority not Baha'is, but enemies who start rumours that they were Baha'is to discredit them. -- Jeff3000 13:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes possibly, but Ali Kazemi was really a Baha'i still during Mohammed Reza Shah's reign. And the tadshik Ajatollah Seyyed Ali Hosseini Khamenei was really arrested 1963 in Birjand due to islamic activities like before Dr. Mossadegh by Reza Shah's reign. Only I don't understand exactly the relations and the reasons. Maybe there are parallel stories which can help to understand Birjand's and the Baha'i's history a better way. I don't understand why the dervish - living in Mashhad - is so active in converting but only specific persons. What has Alam made against Baha'is? He shall be related with Ali Kazemi! So I assume he could also be a Baha'i. I ask me with what Shadanloo extort Kazemi to change his faith. How this man has so many power to know the governors and Generals of the region and can visit brothels so obviously without sequels in Shah era and now. It's a real shame that nobody know more about detailes. Does not be every Baha'is registered? So I assume it is only a security risk to release the databases to the public. Commit 14:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not every Baha'i has to sign a decleration card, so there is no huge database. Also Baha'is are not supposed to be involved in politics, and while that doesn't mean that Baha'is cannot be appointed to a position, the recent adminstrations in Iran, including the IRI and the Shah's regime were against the Baha'is, so it is unlikely that any Baha'is were in those cabinets.  I really think that it is rumours spread by enemies of the people in power to make them look bad, as the general Iranian populace does not have a good regard towards the Baha'is due to propoganda. -- Jeff3000 14:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

laws
An anon just changed the laws section around. I want to propose changing this:


 * Some laws are enforced by the administrative institutions of the Faith (which at the national level are empowered to remove the voting rights of individual believers for certain bona fide reasons) while other laws are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Bahá'í society, which is expected gradually to come into being.

To this:
 * Many laws are left for individual application and enforcement, such as the laws of prayer and fasting. Other laws are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Bahá'í society, such as the punishments proscribed for murder and arson.

But there is a footnote after the sentence. If anyone is more familiar with the subject, could you please help out. Cuñado  -  Talk  16:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The relevant portions from the Introduction of the Aqdas which is used as a reference are:
 * The society for which certain of the laws of the Aqdas are designed will come only gradually into being, and Bahá'u'lláh has provided for the progressive application of Bahá'í law
 * The laws revealed by Bahá'u'lláh in the Aqdas are, whenever practicable and not in direct conflict with the Civil Law of the land, absolutely binding on every believer or Bahá'í institution whether in the East or in the West. Certain ... laws should be regarded by all believers as universally and vitally applicable at the present time. Others have been formulated in anticipation of a state of society destined to emerge from the chaotic conditions that prevail today...
 * Other statements which can be used to reference the statement are
 * Regarding the nineteen-day fast; its observance has been enjoined by Bahá'u'lláh upon all believers, once they attain the age of fifteen and until they reach seventy. Children of all countries, nationalities and classes, who are fifteen years old are under this obligation. It matters not whether they mature later in one country than in another. The command of Bahá'u'lláh is universal, irrespective of any variance in the age of maturity in different countries and among different peoples. "In the 'Aqdas' Bahá'u'lláh permits certain exceptions to this general obligation of fasting, among them are included those who do hard work, such as workers in heavy industries. "But while a universal obligation, the observance of the nineteen day fast has been made by Bahá'u'lláh the sole responsibility of the individual believer. No Assembly has the right to enforce it on the friends, or to hold anybody responsible for not observing it. The believer is free, however, to ask the advice of his Assembly as to the circumstances that would justify him to conscientiously break such a fast. But he is by no means required to do so.
 * (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 233) (emphasis added)
 * Obligatory prayer is a personal spiritual obligation, meaning that no communal or administrative sanctions can be brought through failure to perform it. The only penalty for failure to observe this law is a spiritual one.
 * (John Walbridge, Prayer and worship)


 * There are thus two issues
 * Application of the laws. This is progressive as shown above
 * Enforcement of the laws. Laws of a personal nature are the sole responsibility of the individual believer, other laws can be enforced to some extent by the Baha'i institutions.


 * I will be changing the paragraph to to


 * The laws of the Bahá'í Faith primarily come from the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Bahá'u'lláh's book of laws.  While some of the laws from the Kitáb-i-Aqdas are applicable at the present time, Bahá'u'lláh has provided for the progressive application of other laws that are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Bahá'í society, which is expected gradually to come into being. The laws, when not in direct conflict with the civil laws of the country of residence are binding on every Bahá'í. For personal laws such as prayer or fasting, while it is a universal oblication, the observance of such laws are the sole responsibility of the individual.  The other laws may be enforced to a degree by the administrative order, while others are dependent upon the existence of a predominantly Bahá'í society.
 * -- Jeff3000 17:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As a stop-gap, not to avert your planned edits, I added a short sweet sentence about "yet other laws" are left to the discretion of the individual (such as obligatory prayer, etc.). It was the missing piece.  I like how your version is shaping up for the ultimate phrasing. --Christian Edward Gruber 18:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The persian government supported The Bab at first.
The shah actually wanted to talk with him in person! it was his son who started persecution. Pure inuyasha 19:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Shah's prime minister prevented the meeting, but the persecutions began in 1844. Nasiri'd-din Shah came to power in 1848. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  19:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't use the word support; as Cunado mentioned the Shah wanted to meet the Bab, but the prime minister sent the Bab to Tabriz where he was imprisoned to stop the meeting. So the Shah could be said to be curious, but the prime minister who was probably the main guy in charge of the government did not support the Bab at all.  -- Jeff3000 19:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I knew I used the wrong word... I stood there for a moment trying to think what the right word was.... -_-

Just imagine how history would be different if The Bab talked with the shah.. we might have had a baha'i Iran! Pure inuyasha 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This just may in fact be true, the Shah may have been more receptive. However, knowing monarchs of those days from history books....who knows... Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and, it is true that the Bab was not hated or persecuted in the beginning. Even officials respected him as they thought he was a new "bab". There were 2 figures that claimed to be "bab" after the disppearance of the 12th Imam. The claimed to speak on behalf of him: Gates to the 12th Imam. Then there was almost 1,000 years where no one heard from them again. Persians thought that the Bab had come to renew this, they did not expect him to say that he was the promissed Mahdi and was a Gate to God, a Gate to One greater than himself. The Mahdi and the Spirit of Jesus to come at Judgement Day were not expected to be the Bab. Nmentha 00:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ISLAM
Peace be upon everyone,

This article states that the "Bahá'í Faith" has some Islamic origin. The Qur'an says:

[3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the *scripture* and wisdom."

[33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the *final prophet*. GOD is fully aware of all things.

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture.

Thus - since Muhammad was the final prophet - the Qur'an is the final scripture.

As for a "messianic figure" - such as a "Mehdi" - who will come and save the Muslim Ummah, there is no basis for this in the Qur'an:

[4:171] The Messiah *was* Jesus, the son of Mary, a messenger of GOD.

How does the Bahá'í "faith" respond to this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Davidaitken (talk • contribs).


 * Wikipedia is not a forum, but I'll respond to your question regardless. The answer is pretty easily.  Just as you noted that there is a difference between Nabi and Rasoul, Baha'i scripture also points to that difference.  Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Nabi (Prophet), but a Rasoul (messenger).   One definition of prophet from Merriam-Webster is "one who foretells future events"  In Baha'i understanding the word prophet is thus someone who prophesizes the future.  A messenger of God is Baha'i understanding is one who brings messages from God to help humanity and humans to advance toward God. Thus, in Baha'i understanding, a prophet and a messenger are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


 * Baha'is see the the terms "resurrection", "Judgement Day", "paradise" and "hell" used in Muslim holy books as symbolic. Baha'is see that "Resurrection" means that the appearance of a new revelation, and that "raising of the dead" means the spiritual awakening of those who have stepped away from true religion. Baha'is also see "Judgement Day" as to referring to when a new Messenger of God comes, and the acceptance or rejection of those on the Earth.


 * Now let's look at verse 33:40 which you specifically brought up and the notion of the "Seal of the Prophets", which my translation says "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."  Baha'is do not necessarily disagree with the term "Seal of the Prophets" as Baha'is see that previous dispensations such as Moses' Jesus' and Muhammad's were all prophecisising about a future event; in terms of Christianity and Islam, this refers to Armageddon and Judgement Day, when a Jesus will come back and bring about a true society on Earth.   Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the symbolic (as explained above) fulfillment  of these prophecies and is the return of Jesus; Baha'u'llah is no longer prophesizing about a future event, but instead he is the fulfillment of those prophecies through his teachings that will allow humankind to unite.  Thus Muhammad, in Baha'i belief, was indeed the Seal of the Prophets, because he was the last to come from God before the cycle of Fulfillment started with Baha'u'llah, who claimed he was the return of Jesus.


 * If you really want to understand the Baha'i position, and see if it makes sense yourself without having to deal with my explanations, I would urge you to read the Kitab-i-Iqan, which can be found on the web in Arabic Persian, and English. Regards -- Jeff3000 15:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For the record, the word "final" does not occur in Quran 33:40. The word David is using to mean final is, in arabic, "Khat a m an-Nabi".  That word means "Seal" or "Signet Ring".  The word "Khat i m an-Nabi" would mean "final of the Prophets".  Khatim, however, was not the word in the Qur'an, and on this point there is no dispute among Qur'anic scholars.  If God is perfect, and He could have chosen to use the word Khatim had he meant final, why would he use the word Khatam?  Either God is trying to trick us, or he meant "Seal" and not "final."  It is quite common for Muslims to translate the word as "final" in English, but this is an interpretive translation, and not a literal translation of the meaning.  It introduces a doctrinal bias that cannot be ascribed to the original text.


 * Further, mostly for Jeff3000's sake, Shoghi Effendi points out that Baha'u'llah refers to Muhammad as the "Seal of His (God's) Prophets and Messengers" (In the tablet of Ishraqat). Baha'u'llah's claim is not just to be another Nabi or Rasool, but rather to be a Manifestation of God.  However, the whole argument is moot, because Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, but said that Jesus would return in the last days.  There would be no revelation BEFORE the end of days.  Baha'is believe that these prophesies have arrived and are being fulfilled (symbolically and literally), and that Baha'u'llah is the return of Jesus Christ.  He is preaching Islam, just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham preached it, correcting people's misconceptions of the religion.  The religion of God looks different when revealed to different nations and peoples, and at different times, because of the varying readiness and maturity of the recipients of the religion.  You see God really is a smart creator, and as his creatures change, He gives them what they need.  A baby can't eat solid food, but you don't give baby-food to an active adult.  God's truth is one, but we see it according to our capacities, both as individuals and as peoples.  As Jeff3000 pointed out above, the Kitab-i-Iqan explains much of this, and there is a good book called "Baha'i References to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam" that has good references.  You can read about these concepts also in the wiki article on progressive revelation. Lastly, a very good comparison of Islamic and Baha'i views of the nature of Prophets can be found here.  An examination of the difference of interpretation of the concept of Seal of the Prophets in Islam and Baha'i can be found here.


 * I recommend that any further discussion be taken into a User_talk space, since this really isn't the place for it. The doctrinal points above were potentially relevant to some articles on wikipedia, so I felt it worth mentioning here. --Christian Edward Gruber 15:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That's absolutely hillarious. You had to use an English dictionary to justify Baha's illegitimate scripture. The Qur'an - as the literal word of God - has been interpreted in many ways. However, the definition of Nabi and Rasoul are facts free from distortion: the writings left by Baha have no basis. Any objective follower of the Qur'an - a proven scripture - will see right through these Baha manipulations. You will be resurrected (quite physically), and you will be held accountable for your every action; for all your beliefs. --David Aitken


 * With all due respect, David, it is your belief is based on an english dictionary, not mine. The Qur'an (in the original arabic) says Khatam, not Khatim.  Look it up.  Any student or teacher of classical Arabic, including Islamic ones, will tell you that the word Khatam means "ring" or "seal" or "signet".  The word does not, and never has meant "final".  "Final" is a mistranslation, or an after-the-fact interpretation.  The Qur'an may certainly be the literal word of God, but it is only so in Arabic, not in english translation.  That last point is certainly consistent with orthodox Islam.  And while I appreciate your concern, I am quite comfortable with my relationship with God, and am prepared to stand in judgment before Him.  Since you are so clear on your beliefs and on the incorrectness of mine, I can therefore assume you will not investigate the views in the cited documents, and we can end this discussion on friendly terms.  God is, as always, sufficient above all of us.  Warmest regards. --Christian Edward Gruber 20:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The baha'i faith is not denying islam. baha'is fully believe in the truth of the Qur'an. the fact that the number 19 is the common denominator in the Qur'an is interesting, since that is a holy number in the baha'i faith.

All revealed texts seem to have what was unknowable in the age it was revealed in included within. the Torah has the bible code and the Qur'an has this for example. Pure inuyasha 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the Wikipedia is the right place to question the legitimacy of the Baha'i Faith (or any other religion or philosophy for that matter). There are plenty of forums and discussion pages on the internet to have this debate rather than here. --Jdemarcos 19:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Khatama = Seal
 * Khaatama = Last


 * [39:28] An Arabic Quran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.


 * Christian: Any objective reader can see the difference in the words above.


 * Pure Inuyasha: Check out this video, on the Bible Code + Qur'an's mathematical composition, there's a HUGE difference:


 * I agree with Jdemarcos, this isn't the place. At least students of the Qur'an who come to the Bahai article can check the "discussion" section and have some of their immediate questions answered right away by the clear-cut verses of the Holy Qur'an, God be glorified. - DAVID AITKEN, may God forgive me for being rude earlier, be He glorified, far above any claims against His perfect Qur'an.

I never said the bible code and the Qur'an numbers are the same. Pure inuyasha 06:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

In many Muslim sources; "The Mahdi, according to majority Sunni and Shiite tradition, will arise at some point before the day of judgment, institute a kingdom of justice, and will in the last days fight alongside the returned Jesus against the Dajjal (Antichrist or false Messiah). However, since the most reliable sources do not refer to him, various Muslim traditions have ascribed different characteristics to the Mahdi..." This is taken from one of the wikipedia pages referring to Islam and the Day of Judgment. It is a well known concept to most Muslim scholars that on the "Day of Judgement" the Mahdi and the Messiah (Isa/Jesus) will return; first the Mahdi to bring justice and truth back to Islam and then Jesus to tell the world about all the errors it has comitted and to banish evil. To the Baha'is, it is understood that these two figures are The Báb and Bahá’u’lláh in fulfillment of the promises in the Holy Quran and hadith. Nmentha 23:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)