Talk:Baháʼí Faith/Archive Formatting

About capitalization, reaching consensus
The article seems to be bouncing back and forth between capitalizing and not capitalizing the pronouns (or should I say Pronouns :-) ). It appears that the advocates for capitalization are mainly Bahá'ís who feel that capitalization denotes a proper level of respect for the central figures of the Bahá'í Faith and that, in some but not all cases, the non-capitalization position seems to be taken by others within the Wikipedia audience who feel that capitalization is either unnecessary, inappropriate, or not in line with the general preferences of the Wikipedia audience. In the hopes of coming to some final consensus on this, I would like to address this comment mainly to the former group. This concerns how, in my personal reading experience, pronoun capitalization is used in other Bahá'í publications.

In the authorized English translations of the writings of the Bahá'í Faith, and in the English letters of Shoghi Effendi if memory serves, the pronouns are generally capitalized. (This should be checked in the documents Shoghi Effendi addressed to the League of Nations and in connection with the official recognition of the Faith at the United Nations, since these may not be capitalized. One of these passages can be found on the inside back cover of any issue of the Journal of Bahá'í Studies, but I don't have one handy.)

However, in the contemporary letters of the Universal House of Justice both approaches are used. For example, in the Peace Message of 1985, one of the first documents to be addressed to the Peoples of the World, the pronoun (he) referring to Bahá'u'lláh is NOT capitalized. In letters to the Bahá'í community, it usually is. In the more recent letter to the world's religious leaders (April 2002), any use of the pronouns referring to Bahá'u'lláh appears to have been avoided, as it seems to have been in the Prosperity of Humankind statement (1994). However, in the April 2002 letter God, the Divine, etc., are capitalized, although I cannot find the use of the pronoun in this sense.

It seems to me that this difference of usage depends on the context of the communication, or the different audience that is being addressed. When a communication is addressed primarily to Bahá'ís or within the context of a religious dialogue with a recognized religious audience, the pronouns tend to be capitalized. This is also the case when referring to any of the founders of the major religions, such as Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. When a more general or non-religious audience is addressed, capitalization is often avoided.

Such variances in how capitalization is used, even within writings of the same author or institution, should not come as a surprise to Bahá'ís since, in several important works, Bahá'u'lláh emphasizes the importance of paying careful attention to the outlook and perceptions of the particular audience with whom one is communicating at any particular time. For example:


 * Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.
 * http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-89.html#pg176

Referring directly to the above comment by Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá emphasizes the point as follows:


 * Such is the consummate wisdom to be observed in thy pursuits. Be not oblivious thereof, if thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions. First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the skilful physician.
 * http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-215.html#pg269

In another place, Bahá'u'lláh writes


 * ''Every word is endowed with a spirit, therefore the speaker or expounder should carefully deliver his words at the appropriate time and place, for the impression which each word maketh is clearly evident and perceptible. The Great Being saith: One word may be likened unto fire, another unto light, and the influence which both exert is manifest in the world. Therefore an enlightened man of wisdom should primarily speak with words as mild as milk, that the children of men may be nurtured and edified thereby and may attain the ultimate goal of human existence which is the station of true understanding and nobility."
 * http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-12.html#pg172

From a Bahá'í perspective, then, a few important points emerge.


 * First, it does not appear that we need to worry about belittling the figures being referred to by using small letters in pronouns, since this usage is common in official communications to particular audiences.
 * Second, since the audience of the Wikipedia is similar to the worldwide audience of the Peace Message in 1985, literally everybody and not primarily a religiously-inclined audience, small letters in pronouns would seem to be not only acceptable, but appropriate.
 * Third, within this audience, there are undoubtedly many people who might be offended or uneasy about seeing capitalized pronouns used to refer to religious figures in general, and we must pay careful attention to such sensitivities.

Given all of the above, I would like to propose that the use of uncapitalized pronouns in this article is appropriate. If everyone feels that what I have written here is enough to reach an agreement on this point, then in future I suggest we gently refer new readers and contributors who raise this issue to the foregoing discussion and revert the article changes accordingly.

I look forward to your responses.

-- Jonathan

Jmenon 08:39, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Many thanks for that thoughtful and thought-provoking insight, Jmenon. It'll be interesting to see how the other (please forgive my lack of apostrophes) Bahais here respond to this. To be honest with you, although I made the change, I'm not really beating the drum for anything other than consistency, both internal and with established policy. At some point, I'm gonna bounce over to Bab and sort out that article; a complete mess, incapable of any internal consistency, never mind consistency with WikiPolicy.

The main problem, as I see it, isn't about what the policy actually says--that's pretty clear. It's not even really if some people don't like the policy--take it up elsewhere. It's the fact that there are so darn many of these articles to make consistent! I think that keeping this disucssion here would be useful--it would seem that Christianity and Islam don't have the same level of concern being expressed about policy (despite a couple of glaring lapses in Xianity I'm about to fix). Wooster 18:26, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * what´s wrong with the Bab article? :) - --Cyprus2k1 14:50, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Try this paragraph.


 * Born on October 20 1819, in Shiraz to a well-known merchant of the city of Shiraz, his father died soon after his birth and the boy was raised by his uncle Hájí Mirzá Siyyid 'Ali, who was also a merchant. As a child He learned to read and write and was sent with other children to a teacher of religion. During these lessons the little boy showed uncommon wisdom and quickly attracted attention, since not only did He ask very difficult questions, but He answered them Himself. He did this so well that his teacher was dumbfounded. Upon reaching manhood, He joined his uncle in the family business, a trading house, and became a merchant. His integrity and piety won the esteem of the other merchants with whom He came in contact. He was also known for His generosity to the poor. In 1842 He married Khadíjih-Bagum and they had one son, Ahmad, who died in infancy.


 * Count the capitalisation errors. I make (ignoring beginnings of sentences) four pronouns and eight Pronouns.  It's a mess and needs to be sorted out.  However, I don't have time at the moment.  Wooster 16:20, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * i agree. i was writing that, but i was more worried about writing the article and later fixing it (capitalization, NPOV, etc..) . anyway, in the meanwhile i got into a busy epoch, and then vacations :) will be back on september! - --Cyprus2k1 16:38, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

pronunciation
I can't figure out how to say "Bahá'í". Can we get some guidance in this article? --Twinxor 19:39, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * "Bu-hi" - Bu as in but, and hi as in high. &rarr;Raul654 19:45, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * The first part is pretty close, remember it's a short "u" sound, not "oo". I would rather think it's like the "a" sound in "bar". The "hi" part is not one syllable, so it's more like "ha-ee". So in total "ba" "ha" "ee" -- Fadeaway919 19:52, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * And the stress is on the last syllable -- Fadeaway919 19:54, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

reasons
removed: "Bahá'u'lláh (meaning splendour or light of Allah) is the title that Mirza Husay Ali Nuri from Iran chose for himself as the new leader of the Bábí movement in Baghdad. His half brother, Mirza Yahya Nuri already had the title of Subh-i Azal (meaning Dawn of Eternity). These titles were not accidental. They both had to do with the Bábí symbolic concept and claim of "new light""

because this is already mentioned later.

removed: "Essentially, both Bábísm and Bahá'ísm are heavily based on an offshoot of the Shia branch of Islam."

it is POV.

"Baháism was one of the two sects of the Bábís when a split among the Bábís started, after Bahá'u'lláh challenged the leadership of the Bábí leader, his own half-brother, Subh-i Azal. The followers of Subh-i Azal became known as the Azali Bábís while the followers of Bahá'u'lláh became known as the Bahá'í Bábís or later just Bahá'ís."

this shouldnt be in the first paragraph but in "origins" or "history" or something. but still, its already mentioned in other related articles "Baháism" is a wrong term.

--Cyprus2k1 09:33, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * 1- I am going to put my contributions back into the article, because you decided on your own to remove them first, and then discuss (and even in discussion you are not discussing anything, just opining).


 * 2- "Bahism" may be a "wrong" term in Bahai circles, but certainly in a historical context, put next to "babism" and "azalism" as a transitional movement, is valid and legitimate. This is a good example that you are incapable of divorcing from your mind the strictly bahai religious culture.  This is why you have such a big problem accepting that wikipedia does not adhere to the language of a specific faith or culture, rather, it is a collaborative, open, online encyclopedia in which all people can contribute.


 * 3- it is most certainly NOT POV to say that Babism, and by extension, Bahaism, came out of Shaykhi branch of Shia Islam. Please educate yourself on the origins of your faith.  --Amir 09:46, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I want to take the opportunity to remind everyone of the Three-revert rule. If you revert more than three times in 24 hours, you will get blocked. Do not edit until you've sorted out your differences on the talk page. JRM 10:34, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)