Talk:Baháʼí Faith and gender equality

Real work needs to be done
I'm really quite disapointed with this page, it really needs some work:

After all there is to actually be said about gender equality all there is in the table of contents is "criticism". Shockingly unacademic if nothing else.


 * For instance: the Baha'i Faith gave women the right to vote long before it was made a reality in 1893 (A year after the passing of Baha'u'llah) in New Zealand.
 * Baha'u'llah defines gender equality as a prerequisite to peace.
 * The whole concept of education of girls is now widely accepted in Socio-Economic Development, but originated in the Baha'i teachings.
 * Tahirih. One of the first, if not the first, to work and die for gender rights.  Removed her veil in IRAN of all places.
 * Bahiyyih Khanum. First women in religious history who was responsible for an entire religious community, and not as a figure head but in an official, powerful and strongly binding way.
 * 'Abdu'l-Baha was speaking publically in America in 1911 about the equality of the sexes. In 1920 Fadil Mazandarani was also speaking about it.

In short, there are so many positive things to be said, but instead all we have is "criticisms". How incredibly cynical. I'll be back I guess. :D

Matarael 2:50pm, 12 December 2005.


 * You are right Matareal. If you can fix all those things I would be most appreciative.  The reason why the page is set up as it is right now is because the content was copied from the Baha'i criticisms page which was broken up.  If you do not have time to do it in the near future, I'll work on it during the holiday season. -- Jeff3000 14:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Matarael, you're a good comedian. -- "the Baha'i Faith gave women the right to vote long before it was made a reality in 1893 (A year after the passing of Baha'u'llah) in New Zealand." -- Then deprived them of serving in the UHJ until at least the 29th century, around 9 centuries after equality of men and women was widely accepted by humanity. -- "*The whole concept of education of girls is now widely accepted in Socio-Economic Development, but originated in the Baha'i teachings." The first degree awarding university was founded over 1000 years before the Baha'i Faith, by a woman, had 50% female patrons, and countless female graduates. -- Any references for the official power invested in Bahiyyih Khanum? -- "Abdu'l-Baha was speaking publically in America in 1911 about the equality of the sexes. In 1920 Fadil Mazandarani was also speaking about it." The modern feminist movement had been in full throttle since the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:A88:300:F581:42D5:4BAB:75D8 (talk) 16:50, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

name
Can we think of another name for this? Feminism is just one of the issues addressed. It should be something more along the lines of "Equality of Men and Women". maybe...


 * Baha'i Faith and Equality of the Sexes
 * Baha'i Faith and Gender Equality
 * Baha'i Faith and Equality of Men and Women
 * Women in the Baha'i Faith
 * Women are great

Well I'm spent on ideas. Cunado19 12:24, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Also about the name, feminism should not be capitalized, I am not sure about faith. However, if you change the name this will not matter. gren グレン 03:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I changed the name Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  07:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

feminism
This quote strikes me as a bit lacking in the NPOV department:


 * The Bahá'í Faith's emphasis on male-female equality reflects an older feminist paradigm. Feminism has moved beyond that, to a female superiority.

First of all, 'feminism' isn't a unified movement and second of all, it never was. It seems to me the second sentence should simply be removed completely. At best it needs a drastic reconsideration. If someone more familiar with Baha'i gender politics wants to revise it so it says something meaningful about Baha'i and its relationship to contemporary schools of feminism, fine, but as it is, it's a meaningless blanket statement regarding a subject over which this article asserts no authority. --Yst 01:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. I don't think it's necessary to discuss details, just delete it. If someone has a problem with it they will revert or change it. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  09:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Bahiyyih Khanum
It was the first time in religious history that a women was a leader, and not as a figure head but in an official, powerful and strongly binding way.

Really? What about Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of the Church of Christ, Scientist in 1879?

I've reworded this text as it's patently false. AndrewRT 16:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, quite hyperbolic. MARussellPESE 17:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|link=http://www.bahai.us/|20px]] -  Talk  18:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't have anything to do with the original edit under question, but I think there is some truth in it that has since been omitted. Although she was not the first female religious leader, she may have been (I don't know this for sure either) the first female in charge of the global affairs of an independent religion (or maybe the first explicitly so, if you will believe the disputed Pope Joan theory--I add this in contrast to Mary Baker Eddy, who I don't think was claiming to be the rightful successor to Christ as do the Popes; granted Catholicism is only one denomination, but obviously a very large one)... Brettz9 13:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hyperbolics seem to attract fact checkers. I didn't know about Mary Baker Eddy - she seems have done quiet a bit by 1921 but it was still basically an American movement with a couple publications and centers but when Bahiyyih Khanum was in charge the Baha'i Faith was of an international and complex community founded 35 years before Christian Science - it already had organized communities and layers of administration and buildings in many countries - Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Palestine (then), India, Russia, United States, Britain, France, Germany - I'm fairly sure all had significant communities and various assemblies - here's some history and details:


 * documents a "All-England Bahá'í Council" in 1920,
 * by 1917 the American Baha'i community included 6 forerunners of Local Spiritual Assemblies and by 1920 organizations were overseeing the progress of the Temple at Willmette
 * Egyptian community was organized as early as 1915 when several communities are coordinating raising money for a temple as well as publishing book
 * there are many hundreds of Baha'is in Turkministan by 1889 and several thousand by 1925 (and we by then begining to suffer under Communist oppressions - see also here but still managed to build the first Baha'i Temple in the world with coordinated assistance and oversite. )--Smkolins 16:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

stats of women on nsa's
I beleive the stats on http://www.bahai.com/thebahais/pg27.htm deserve some mention here - the fact that while the rules allow women in most roles in fact women have been serving in significant numbers for decades would be worth presenting. I have had an extension of this data to 1997 in the past but cannot find it now - I am pursuing leads on the data in citable form. I beleive longer or shorter summaries of this could be on several pages once the main entry here is ready.--Smkolins 12:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Tahirih
Tahirih's "death bed" utterance is being changed to her "final" utterance. She didn't die on her bed, she was strangled in a garden then thrown in a well. Daniel De Mol (talk) 12:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Fundamental equality in an organisation where women are explicitly excluded from the top level of governance
I feel like 'One of the fundamental teachings of the Bahá'í Faith is that men and women are equal' really ought to be qualified by the fact that women are forbidden from standing on the supreme governing institution of the Bahá'í Faith, The Universal House of Justice. That's a striking fact, isn't it? It seems oddly buried in the current version of this entry. --Oolong (talk) 20:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Women's Prohibition from Serving on the Universal House of Justice
The use of the term "excused" to describe the prohibition of women serving on the Universal House of Justice suggests that membership in the Universal House Justice is an obligation or burden from which women are spared, when in fact this is not the case. Women, due to some heretofore unspecified reason related to their gender, are barred, prevented, and precluded from serving in the Universal House of Justice. Regards, A35821361 (talk) 02:47, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Sexism in the Lawh-i-Tibb
The following sexist slur has also been overlooked and is useful to provide a broader impression of the Baha'i attitude towards equality of men and women. "Say: O Friends! Apprehensiveness and agitation pertaineth unto women. " Lawh-i-Tibb, "Tablet of Medicine"

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:A88:300:29DB:B8EC:AE02:91F7 (talk • contribs)


 * It would be original research to take source material directly. What you need is a reliable source saying that the quote you provide is offensive or something. Cuñado ☼ - Talk  05:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The only discussion I have found on the verse is from the Talisman archives, where Sen McGlinn remarks: "On the face of it Baha'u'llah is simply telling the friends not to be afraid, using the gender stereotype 'don't act like women'."

NPOV
This entire article seems to lack NPOV. Could someone please address it? --Abdul Muhib 24 July 2023 — Preceding undated comment added 03:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * That would take like 20 hours. You can tag it with if you want to flag it. Unlikely that anyone with the ability to fix it would prioritize this page over others in the near future. Cuñado ☼ -  Talk  04:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)