Talk:Baháʼí Faith in Scotland

special renovation and extension
Thanks for taking an interest MacRusgail though I see you are interested in all things Scottish and have substantially extended the content on such pages. Congrats on your effort. Mine has generally been on an extensive project making "Baha'i Faith in aaa" pages but I'm glad to stop by and extend this article you pulled mostly out of the UK article. I've exhausted most of the common resources I've known of but there are at least two that need a more familiar eye to things Scottish. They are:
 * The UK list of communities by the end of 1963 to filter the list down to Scotland entries and make a suitable addition to the article. You can use this as a citation syntax:


 * The Scottish Baha'i newsletter and skim for content that might be notable enough to be on the article or provide leads to third party (like when they say there was coverage in local newspapers, etc.) There is enough material just in the released years to consume many hours of reading to find interesting information. And I have some 160 plus countries I'm still working on elsewhere (Bahá'í Faith in the Netherlands being imminent.)

I'd also suggest a relevant map that shows the various cities.... Let me know if I can be of further help. Smkolins (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

pull together a map from the cities mentioned
Just think it would be a good idea if someone were to pull together the linked cities into a map.... Smkolins (talk) 03:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's on there. I moved it to the right of the text, as I thought it looked better. The size is about right, I think.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah - I decided to do it myself. Smkolins (talk) 21:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Means and Materials
I notice that some of the references go to the "Means and Materials" page. Can someone find some more specific references please? It's a difficult page to find your way round, and I can't find the resources e.g. Bahá'í News (22): p. 8. March 1928, etc on there. I don't doubt these exist, it's just they don't seem to exist at that link! --MacRusgail (talk) 16:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The link for Baha'i News is down the page. When you click on it, it takes you to a third party download. When you have the download the files are arranged per citation. Smkolins (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there any easier way of going about this?! --MacRusgail (talk) 13:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Not that I know of. It's about 800MB to download total plus the processing horse power and ram to load 100 MB files and searching. The OCR scanning has some errors in it but it's tolerable. I'm not imagining the Baha'i Faith in Scotland page growing a great deal more except for a finer grained detail approach to cities and such which I presume would be mentioned in the Scot news outlet above. Perhaps some one will be able to contribute some pictures of buildings or people at meetings but nothing huge.Smkolins (talk) 16:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Growth of the community
A bit one sided, as I understand it the Bahais in Scotland have reached a "plateau", and a lot of the children are going away, as with other religions.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Fortunately published references are needed. Not hearsay or personal impressions. Smkolins (talk) 01:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, and nearly all the "published references" that have been provided seem to be coming from the Bahai organisation, i.e. biased by nature of their origin.


 * The Bahais are not growing apace in Scotland. They sent out a lot of people to remote parts of Scotland from elsewhere, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that they are "growing" these days. I would doubt if their new membership outstrips their losses.--MacRusgail (talk) 12:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia requires sources, not your thoughts, expectations or doubts. And lack of sources showing growth is not the same as a source saying there is no growth and there is decline.  You'll need sources for your assertions.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 22:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, Wikipedia does require my doubts. Not that it is your place to be telling me that to begin with. I am sceptical of these claims, and have the right to challenge them. Where is the independent evidence for growth? I don't mean off Bahá'í websites either. Is the community actually growing here, or are there just more people being bussed into remote areas?--MacRusgail (talk) 14:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * By all means independent information is valuable. So is dependent, qualified as such is fine. I tried to use as high quality sources as I could find. By all means - and time always brings more to light. Smkolins (talk) 17:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually independent data is better. As long as it's fairly neutral.--MacRusgail (talk) 11:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I did not think I implied anything else. One is qualified knowledge, dependent. Scholarly sources are best. Did you read in my comments something else? Smkolins (talk) 23:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sources from the Bahai organisation are only relevant up to a point. They are "in house", and by their very nature biased. There are too many "in house" references, and not enough "third party" sources.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

BTW the overall state of things and the reason for the original headers from my view is as follows - there is only one data point on numbers of Baha'is. There is a general occasional statement of one Baha'i here or there or when an assembly (9 people) exists. More assemblies does imply growth but not on of hard numbers of individuals. But you can easily see a shift from first Baha'i here or there to assemblies forming and then to a whole range of complex engagements and projects being undertaken - and most of those projects are referred to by third party sources like the Glasgow University study highlighting the role the Baha'is of Glasgow took as well as details about the survey counts as well as the government and other sources speaking of events here or there. But this is all general information and if challenged should be substantiated. Until we have more data points we cannot conclude a clear growth has happened. Smkolins (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Scottish Island WikiProject
I have included the WPSI since the Bahá'ís have consciously set out to colonise various Scottish archipelagos. A lot of the material involved specifically mentions the Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this true?
"Bahá'ís wishing to publish books about the Bahá'í Faith must first submit their work to their respective National Spiritual Assembly for approval through a review process."? Found on the Shetlopedia link.--MacRusgail (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Shetlopedia link? As in all things with wikis, citations matter. Often poor understanding or misunderstanding or other agendas follow statements without citations.

My own understanding of this is as follows - Baha'is can use a variety of publishing schemes. Few non-Baha'i publishing options are interested in publishing Baha'i works (indeed all the early ones were Baha'i based) and individuals claiming to speak "this is true" of Baha'is are taking a public stance about the religion and it should be reviewed. Either way submitting to a process of review is viewed akin to a peer-reviewed approach to scholarly publishing. Each NSA has their own approach to the details. And keep in mind things like blogs are not reviewed. BTW this review process is one reason I have a higher confidence level about Baha'i sources. Not to say they are neutral, but they have generally been reviewed somewhat and often by professioinal scholars (i.e. university academics and the like) which is typically what such review entails. Smkolins (talk) 15:57, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess you are speaking of http://shetlopedia.com/Bahá'í - The articles in wikipedia are heavily cited. Smkolins (talk) 16:10, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say Baha'is rather abhor the use of the word "colonize" as that implies lots of baggage about empires and abuses of empires. See Bahá'í_Faith_and_Native_Americans for a discussion as well as Pioneering (Bahá'í) as more substantiated views on the issues. Smkolins (talk) 16:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is quite obviously a colonisation project. The aim is to settle Bahais all over the world, including remote islands such as Samoa and the Falklands, and grow communities from them.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

From; Thereisnohope. I agree with MacRusgail;

a) Published references from the vested interest religious/political body, such as the Baha'is writing about themselves, are almost worthless. Statistics, historical, deletion of personalities, & philosophical (such as teachings) are reviewed & re-edited or censored to suit the occasion. See, for example, the major edits of the foremost introduction manual; "Baha'u'llah & the New Era" (Esslemont) which was deceptively edited without notification in the preface, to remove world unity & world religion prophecies that had already been approved by Abdu'l-Baha & Shoghi Effendi.

b) The Baha'is routinely exaggerate their global & national memberships. When I was in this religion I personally knew of long deceased, resigned, & emigrated people still on the rolls.

c) 9 Baha'is of 21+ years old are needed for a Local Spiritual Assembly (LSA) at the time of election. Members are habitually shunted around the country to make up the numbers. Once the LSA is formed they leave within a few weeks/months.

d) Baha'is going to new areas are called "pioneers" (missionaries). They normally do that at a hint or request of the administration or writings by major figures of the religion. For example Abdu'l-Baha & Shoghi Effendi laid some emphasis on establishing "The Faith" in the Scottish Islands, such as Shetland, Faroes, & Hebrides.

e) Yes, any publication of book length needs clearance from the National Spiritual Assembly (NSA). Pamphlets for local consumption are normally reviewed at LSA level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thereisnohope (talk • contribs) 13:30, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

non-combatant vs Conscientious objector
If I may... a personal story to illustrate some of the differences. My father-in-law was a conscience objector. He fundamental objected to war so specifically that he could not cooperate in any way shape or form with the war effort, specifically WWII. However at the same time he learned of the Baha'i Faith and was so transformed by this that he faced the question of status with respect to the war. The answer he got, and was required to live by, was Baha'is seek non-combatant status. That meant during WWII he had to change his status and go from working in a forestry job in Oregon to going through basic training and serving as a medic where he got to see first hand battlefield suffering and risks. The two situations are not remotely the same. It may seem like splitting details of what kind of objection one is trying to be but its not. A non-combatant may be some kind of conscientious objector in that they object to war through the operation of their conscience, but in actual application the two are distinct. More specifically one is "not taking a direct part in hostilities" and the other is an "individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform military service". My father-in-law was out of the war and had to decide, as a consequence of his personal faith, to go to the field of battle and try to save lives as a statement of his loyalty to the government even though he thought war was wrong. The military distinguishes this kind of situation and so should wikipedia. Smkolins (talk) 23:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

possible resource(s)
--Smkolins (talk) 16:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

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