Talk:Baháʼí calendar

Badi Calendar as a product
I know we are not to put up commercial products, but the fist ever Badi Calendar (www.kdkfactory.com/badi) is being published and sold, so I think it has some historical relevancy. What do you say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.191.17 (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

- Also, GR just published a book on it too http://www.grbooks.com/show_book.php?book_id=274 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.191.17 (talk) 08:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The book can be treated as a source if someone owns it to reference some specific statements. As or the publishing of the calendar - if there is some scholarly reference on the publishing of the calendar then perhaps it could be mentioned but it will need more than a commercial website claim. Smkolins (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

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Dates contradiction
Someone has pointed out to me an apparent contradiction in this article. It states, "Years in the Bahá'í calendar begin at the vernal equinox (usually March 21 in the Gregorian calendar)." However, definite Gregorian dates are given throughout the article, suggesting that dates do not vary between the two calendars. If the quoted statement is true, then the Gregorian dates can only be approximate, in which case the article should say so.

I have also been told that dates are calculated using different reference locations, such as Teheran or Haifa, and sometimes from the Gregorian calendar, i.e. the new year always starts on March 21. Thus, different people are apparently using different dates on the Bahá'í calendar. Perhaps someone who knows about the Bahá'í calendar could clarify this. -- Nike 05:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that the calendar was "set" to Gregorian dates some time after it was originally envisioned (mid-19th century). As such, the exact dates as on the article are correct and fixed (in the eyes of a modern Baha'i). I'm not sure enough to edit the article though, but I'll see if I can find out. -- Tomhab 09:53, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * `Abdu'l-Baha explained the significance of Naw-Ruz in terms of the symbolism of the new life of spring. Baha'u'llah defines Naw-Ruz as the Baha'i day on which the vernal equinox occurs. Thus, even if the equinox should occur just before sunset, that day -- which in the Baha'i calendar began at the moment of sunset on the previous day -- is Naw-Ruz. At present, however, Naw-Ruz is fixed as 21 March for Baha'is in all countries outside the Middle East, regardless of exactly when the equinox occurs. - From Baha'i Encyclopaedia Article by John Walbridge Rick Boatright 14:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please note that the 10 July 2014 message of the Universal House of Justice addresses these concerns and fixes the dates in the Badi calendar. The Badi calendar will now always follow the time of the vernal equinox, so the Gregorian dates may shift from year to year.Gplittle (talk) 07:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Spellings
Can we fix the spellings? I don't actually mind whether its Rahmah or Rahmat, but people persistently changing it etc... I don't mind what spelling it adopted just so we can fix a more permanent one -- Tomhab 09:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The spellings, since this is a page on the "Bahá'í calendar", should reflect the standardized Bahá'í usage. Although there is some variance in how different systems transliterate the original Arabic forms, the current Bahá'í system uses the “t” to transcribe the Arabic &#65171; ("t&#257;&#700; marb&#363;&#7789;a"), the final letter in most of the words whose spelling is under discussion.  Though its shape is like that of the Arabic &#65257; ("h&#257;&#700;", i.e. h), it is actually a different orthographical shape for the &#65173; ("t&#257;&#700;", i.e. t), as indicated by the diacritc double-dot.  There is little use in someone who wants to read about the Bahá'í calendar outside the Wikipedia going and running a search for "Rahmah", as all authoritative sources use the standardized Bahá'í system of transliteration.  Googling "Bahá'í calendar Rahmah" returns only 16 hits, most of which are simply mirrors of the Wikipedia article, whereas the same search for "Bahá'í calendar Rahmat" yields 634 returns.  There is a clear utility in maintaining a consistent spelling schema that is in line with the Bahá'í standard.  I'll go ahead and change the spellings to their norms.  Anyone wanting to alter them again, please discuss it here first.
 * Keldan 28 June 2005 15:14 (UTC)

Specific references and quotations
Could someone who knows please list some specific references which cover this material in more detail? &mdash; FJ | hello  20:42, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Name of Bahá'í solar calendar system
Does the Badi` name refer specifically to the 360-day solar calendar? This should be clarified. In fact I would prefer to list all three systems right up front, since clearly they are all important. Are these three the only Bahá'í calendar systems? &mdash; FJ | hello  20:55, May 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * I only know of these three calendars for Baha'is. Another may be used by Bayanis (or Azalis). Apart from that, I think its unlikely there are any others (because who else would make one? unless someone had a draft version), but I don't know for sure.
 * First off, all three calendars listed below are Badi' calendars, but the last two are the ones followed by Baha'is (known as the two Baha'i calendars). As you will see they're almost identical:
 * 1. The original Badi calendar first started by the Bab
 * I don't know much about this and I think thats true for most Baha'is. I've never seen anything specifically written about it. I believe it was based around the lunar calendar that islam uses.
 * 2. Confirmed by Baha'u'llah, but revamped somehow (and is definitely fixed to the solar calendar)
 * Best resource for this is the Kitab-i-Aqdas.
 * 3. Calendar fixed to the gregorian calendar
 * Not sure when this happened. It's almost identical to the Aqdas's version except it fixes new year to 21st March rather than the Vernal equinox (20th, 21st, or 22nd of March - most commonly the 21st though).


 * From re-reading the Aqdas it appears the original calendar was a little vague about where the intercalary days were so Baha'u'llah offered a solution.
 * Anyway, I feel its not appropriate to put up calendar 2 as basically, every day you see on the article is +/- 1 day -- Tomhab 22:54, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Anyway, I've tried to clarify it a bit in the text... knowing my luck I've only made it worse... -- Tomhab 23:06, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Just done a bit more research and it happens that the calendar might have actually been named after Badí', a famous martyr. That would have been only a year before Baha'u'llah made the calendar, so not relevant for the Bab's calendar. Not sure enough about it yet though -- Tomhab 23:42, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Month days
Is it true that Bahá'ís place some significance on the day of the month that has the same number as the month in the year, e.g. 4 Azamat (20 May), the fourth day of the fourth month? --Gareth Hughes 5 July 2005 17:04 (UTC)


 * Well I never have (and I presume this is the same for all modern Baha'is). Early Baha'is and Babis were rather mystical so they may have in the past, but couldn't say. -- Tomhab 5 July 2005 18:03 (UTC)


 * I have also never heard of such a significance being put on the day of the month that has the same number as the day of the year. -- Jeff3000 July 6, 2005 01:07 (UTC)

Probably a archaic tradition from the early days of the faith. Zazaban 22:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Revert re. spellings
I just reverted the page to align it again with the established standard Bahá'í calendar spellings (months of the year, days of the week, holy days, etc.). Again, anyone wanting to change the spellings, please discuss it here first. Misinformation, intentional or not, gets us nowhere. Keldan 13:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The spellings used by the Universal House of Justice in the document released on 7 September 2014 coincide with what this article has as of December 2014.Gplittle (talk) 07:19, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Arabic Script
Can someone ammend the tables to include the Arabic names in the Arabic script? I would do it but I'm afraid I would make a mistake because I've only taken ARB101, and I'm a little unfamiliar with the wiki text protocol for Arabic. I could figure that part out and do it if someone could point out to me a reference where the names are written in Arabic script. Thanks. LambaJan

I learned today that the Arabic lettering is backwards on the calendar. I'm don't know Arabic myself, but my Arabic friend showed me the letters on the calendar written left to right as English is, not right to left as Arabic is. As he reading the Arabic it wasn't coming out Nur, for example, but run. Maybe someone could fix that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.231.65.28 (talk • contribs).


 * Well, I checked, but everything shows up correctly (Arabic runs right to left). All I can think is that you and/or your friend may be using browsers that don't support right-to-left text encoding.  Keldan 17:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

B.B.E.?
I know that the Badí' equivalent of A.D. is B.E., but what's the equivalent of B.C.? I seem to remember encountering B.B.E. (Before the Bahá'í Era) before, but I'm not at all sure. WikiMarshall 18:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have never seen the B.B.E. used in any Baha'i literature (and I have not seen anything else that would be equivalent to a BBE). Usually the Islamic (AH) or the Gregorian (AD) is used to represent dates beforehand.  Since BE is usually just used for intra-Baha'i communication, and is usally always used in addition to the Gregorian date, I don't know if there is much use for the BBE equivalent.  But, BBE is an interesting idea; please do post if you've seen it used anywhere. -- Jeff3000 22:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've also never heard of any example that would be the equivalent of BC, BH, or BCE. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  23:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's a practice I'd like to not see develop. It implies that all time is measured, both forwards and backwards, from a given date. Personally, I don't see the world beginning and ending on 23-May-1844 — I see the world having changed. MARussellPESE 04:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That would get supremely difficult once we run of calenders to use. Once we get past the egyptian calander we've run out of known calanders to move back to. Zazaban 19:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC) -    - One interesting thing, quite difficult to understand, is that the badi calendar don't have a year 0 (zero). Christian calendars don't have it because the monks who worked with the first calendar didn't understand the concept. But the badi calendar is new, and the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh lived in a part of the world where the concept 0 (zero) was understand and explained much earlier than in Christian countries. Nevertheless 1843 is the year 1 B.E.E. and 1844 is the year 1 B.E. (I have seen the years B.E.E. used in Bahá'í papers about the Shaykhis). Alláh-u-Abhá. --Caspiax (talk) 01:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

about merge with Bahá'í Era
Perhaps - but it's more complicated then that - Calendar and Era (and Bahá'í Cycle) are all related and yet different. I think a master page covering all the topics could get complicated and reduce it's usablity in other pages.--Smkolins (talk) 12:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Bahá'í Systems of Time Keeping? Zazaban (talk) 22:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest merge into Baha'i calendar. Cuñado  ☼ -  Talk  06:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I recommend keeping the current status of these articles. They are related, but different subjects. The article length would suffer as well. Parsa (talk) 22:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Bahá'í Era appears to have no information in it that isn't already in this article. The only significant link is from the disambiguation page BE. Baha'i cycle is now redirected to progressive revelation. Hence I suggest replacing with a redirect page. AndrewRT(Talk) 16:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Conflict with previous Scripture
The Quran doesnt prohibit intercalation, it prohibits a pre-islam arab practise called Nasi. Infact the Islamic calendar is probably the most "intercalatory" of most calendars in use today. It inserts an intercalary day almost every alternate month. pls see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercalation_(timekeeping)#Islamic_calendar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasi%27 Nasi was used to change the calendar to accommodate 'war' amongst other things and has nothing to do with intercalation 75.49.251.113 (talk) 00:37, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Given the huge importance of the rites associated with Muslim calendar, and the fact that the founders of the Baha'i Faith claim to be the promised ones of the Abrahamic Religions, the discrepancy between the long extant 12 month division of the Year (solar or lunar) and the innovation of the 19th century claimant is a rather glaring one:

The number of months with ALLAH is twelve months by ALLAH's ordinance since the day when HE created the heavens and the earth. Of these four are sacred. That is the Right Religion So wrong not yourselves therein! And fight the idolaters all together; and know that ALLAH is with those who fear HIM. 9:35

(The above is being deleted by another editor of this topic. The link on the top right hand clearly claims "ISLAMIC" in its association.  Why are you preventing this clearly relevant citation to be removed from this page?   Truth can stand to the light of FACTS ...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.243.210 (talk) 20:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This article is not about the Islamic calendar, but the Baha'i calendar, and has no relevance here. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Islamic calendar was abrogated in the Baha'i faith in favor of the Badi calendar, just as the Christian calendar was abrogated in Islam in favor of the Islamic calendar. It's no more contradiction than the dawn of a new day contradicts the existence of the day preceding it, it's a different day altogether. Peter Deer (talk) 20:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

To put the same point in another way, the introduction of a 19-month year marks an important break with Islam, particularly considering the quote from the Quran provided above (thanks for that btw). I suggest this is relevant to this article and could be included - perhaps along the lines of the way it's included in the article Ayyam-i-Ha:

"The introduction of intercalation marked an important break from Islam, as under the Islamic calendar the practice of intercalation had been specifically prohibited in the Qur'an."

AndrewRT(Talk) 23:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There are several issues in this discussion page that I'd like to address:

First, the Baha'i Calendar is not simply a solar calendar. It is BOTH solar and lunar. A study of the revisions made by Baha'u'llah will reveal that some Baha'i Holy Days are fixed to solar dates while others are fixed to Islamic lunar dates. Therefore, it is necessary to track both lunar and solar dates to celebrate them. In general, dates related to the Bab are celebrated according to the lunar date while dates relating to Baha'u'llah are celebrated according to the solar date. The Twin Birthdays of the Bab and Baha'u'llah (Muharram 1 and 2) are clearly to be celebrated in the future according to the lunar dates. There are 12 lunar months and 19 solar sunths ("months according to the Bayan"), with 5 days remaining (called Ayyam-I-Ha). Every 19 years, or a Vahid, the solar and lunar calendars realign with respect to each other to where they were in 1844 when the Bab announced His mission. I could quote the Quranic verses about the 19 guardian angels, but I will refrain. I will simply say that, in my opinion, there is no conflict with any prior religion here...not even an abrogation. I'd say it is an improvement, since most religious calendars are lunar and the Islamic calendar is the most accurate lunar calendar around...except for some odd requirements that Baha'u'llah eliminates.

Second, the Baha'i calendar was called the Badi' calendar by the Bab.

Third, The lunar portion of the Baha'i calendar is the same as the Islamic lunar calendar. There is a small difference, however, in that Baha'u'llah permits the use of calculation and devices to determine time, particularly in extreme northern and southern latitudes where the length of the day varies enormously. Therefore, it is not required that someone use their bare eyes to spot the crescent moon before a month can begin. You can calculate the date of the new moon and figure out when the crescent is visible or even use telescopes to do so.

Fourth. The sun does enter the constellation of Aries in April, astronomically. However, Abdul-Baha made it clear that this phrase was meant in the astrological sense to refer to the Vernal Equinox, which currently occurs near March 21. So, the Vernal Equinox marks the Naw Ruz Festival and the start of the year in the Badi' Calendar.

Fifth. In modern times, due to lack of familiarity with the calendar and certain details that need to be determined by the Universal House of Justice -- such as the prime meridian location, the measurement locations for sunrise and sunset, etc.-- the solar dates on the Baha'i calendar have been fixed to the Gregorian calendar dates making March 21 always the first day of the Baha'i solar year. For now, this makes the length of Ayyam-I-Ha change every Gregorian leap year and Baha'i dates the same every Gregorian year.

Sixth. Eventually, however, the Naw Ruz Festival will be determined by sunset and the timing of the Vernal Equinox at a location determined by the Universal House of Justice. This will adjust the length of Ayyam-I-Ha and shift the last sunth of Loftiness accordingly.

Finally. The Baha'i day only overlaps the Gregorian day from midnight to sunset. The Baha'i day actually goes from sunset to sunset, instead of midnight to midnight. The Baha'i week begins with Saturday (called Glory) and ends with Friday (called Independence). Saturday (or Saturn) which according to the planetary week is the slowest moving celestial body, begins the week. Friday (or Venus) which has always represented love and is the fastest moving celestial body, is the seventh day.

I hope this answers many of the questions raised here. Jkhalilprince (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but for inclusion in the article would require citations for such details. But thanks for adding to the discussion. Smkolins (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't intend for any changes to be made to the article, just to add to the discussion. But, I would like people to be able to verify any information they wish to look into.

Regarding the solar/lunar aspect of the Baha'i calendar. Refer to paragraph 110 of the Aqdas, where Baha'u'llah speaks of "...the two other Festivals that fall on the twin days..." when referring to the Twin Birthdays of Muharram 1 and 2. Also, refer to the non-authoritative pilgrim notes of Ruhiyyih Khanum (Volume 2) where the Guardian comments that Baha'u'llah says these days should be consecutive.("These two days are accounted as one in sight of God." Q2, Kitab-i-Aqdas) Furthermore, these dates are currently celebrated according to the Islamic lunar calendar in the Middle East. (See "A Concise Encyclopedia of the Baha'i Faith", by Peter Smith under "Holy Days") One can also see in the Question and Answer section of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, that in Question 1, Baha'u'llah fixes the date of Ridzwan to the Babi' solar date and then in Question 2, Baha'u'llah fixes the date of the Twin Birthdays to Muharram 1 and 2. Thereby, utilizing both solar and lunar dates within moments of each other. --And don't forget the Metonic cycle of the Vahids.

Regarding the name "Badi'," you can refer to the same encyclopedia under "Calendar."

Regarding the use of calculation and instruments, Baha'u'llah says, "In regions where the days and nights grow long, let times of prayer be gauged by clocks and other instruments that mark the passage of the hours." Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 10 There's also more about this in the Q&A.

Regarding the Islamic lunar calendar and the Baha'i lunar calendar being the same. I will not go into all the quotes necessary. However, initially, the Bab changed the Islamic year by starting the lunar calendar from the date of Muhammed's initial declaration in Medina, prior to the Hijra. Because of this, I believe, religious calendars should begin at the moment and spot of the Manifestation's declaration.--Baha'u'llah, though, does not adopt the Bab's practice of backdating the Islamic lunar calendar. He uses the Islamic year without any alteration.

Regarding the timing of Naw Ruz. Shoghi Effendi quotes Abdul Baha in God Passes By page 99, as comparing the Bab's revelation to the sun in "the sign of Aries--which the sun enters at the Vernal Equinox."

The fixing of the dates to the Gregorian calendar is a decision made by Baha'i communities worldwide based on their circumstances. That's why in the Middle East lunar dates are used rather than Gregorian. Until the Universal House of Justice makes a determination about the details, many of these things are flexible and up to the communities to decide.

If you're interested in why the sun isn't in the constellation of Aries anymore at the Vernal Equinox, it's because of the precession of the equinoxes. From the earth's perspective, the sun will move through all the signs of the zodiac in 26,000 years. Projecting forward, using a Baha'i framework, you can predict that there will be one Manifestation roughly every 3 Kull-I-Shays (3 x 361 years). That means 24 Manifestations per precession. Shoghi Effendi has said that the Baha'i Cycle, starting from Adam 6000 years ago, will last 500,000 years. That works out to about 19 precessions. [I'm just musing here, but it's as if the 24 hour day and 19 day sunth is repeated cosmically. There are no references to provide for this precession part. But, you can do your own calculations.]

I'd just like to point out that the Islamic lunar calendar is the most accurate because it is based on observation of the moon and not on calendrical charts and calculations. Similarly, the 19 sunths of the Baha'i calendar are determined by observation of the sun and not simply calculation. "The Festival of Naw Ruz falleth on the day that the sun entereth the sign of Aries, even should this occur no more than one minute before sunset." Kitab-I-Aqdas, Q35. This makes the Baha'i calendar, once fully instituted, the most accurate around--both as a solar and lunar calendar.

And since I am making all these other citations, I might as well provide the one I mentioned before from the Quran. "Then he turned back and was haughty; Then said he: 'This is nothing but magic, derived from of old. This is nothing but the word of a mortal!'  Soon will I cast him into Hell-Fire!...Over it are Nineteen. And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire: and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers..." 74:23-31 Jkhalilprince (talk) 10:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I should have included that the name of the calendar, "Badi'," MAY HAVE come from the following verse in the Quran. "There is no God, but He. The Creator of all things..." 6:102 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkhalilprince (talk • contribs) 12:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have information to add, put it in the article with references. Leaving messages like this is not what the talk page is for. Cuñado  ☼ -  Talk  21:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But remember that any interpretation of primary source material needs a reliable secondary source that makes that same interpretation or it is considered original research and not allowed. Also synthesizing material from two sources to make a conclusion that is not made in either source is also considered original research.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 22:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

It's been quite some time since I've looked at this site. I must say that I am impressed with how substantially improved it is. Great work everyone!

However, I do have a few comments to make that I hope will be a positive addition to the discussions.

First, the statement that the Baha'i calendar is a solar calendar is a summary conclusion that isn't based on the Writings themselves. I know I do not hold the majority's view, but if you look at the Bab's version of the calendar it is based on the solar year primarily, but it is clearly incomplete. Then, when Baha'u'llah changes it, he attaches the most important Baha'i Holy Days -- The Twin Birthdays -- to the Islamic lunar calendar. He doesn't link those dates to the Badi' calendar and this strongly suggests that the 12 month Islamic calendar is not to be discarded at all, but incorporated. Furthermore, the cycle of 19's in the Badi' calendar give us a strong indication that this calendar intends to incorporate both the solar and lunar cycles. The 19-year Kull-i-Shay periods are when the sun and moon return to the same positions respectively that they were in when the Bab made His declaration. The lunar phases and the solar seasons realign every 19 years. It would be more accurate to describe this calendar as a Metonic calendar, keeping track of both solar and lunar cycles.

Second, there is a statement in the article that inserting the days at Ayyam-i-Ha represents an important break with the Islamic calendar. I have to agree with a previous post and ask, why? The Islamic calendar inserts days on a regular basis because it is based on observation. Months are shortened and lengthened all the time. Adding a day or two at Ayyam-i-Ha doesn't indicate any significant break as far as I can see.

Finally, the article describes Friday as the "Day of Rest" in Baha'i Writings This is a small point, but I think it was described as the "Sabbath"? This is a highly important matter for some. The concept of a day of rest, in the sense of doing nothing, does not exist in Islam. Friday is the day of congregation, or collective prayer, in Islam. Friday night, at sunset, is the beginning of the Sabbath for Jews. For Baha'is, it is the day of Independence from all things of this world and for focus on God, as it is named. And, in the future, the good news is that there may well be more than one day of rest from work! :) jkhalilprince

I realized that I should probably clarify what I was referring to on the Sabbath issue. I wasn't clear at all. --Abdul Baha was asked what the Baha'i day of rest (or Sabbath) is going to be. (Mason Remey notes found in the Star of the West, Vol 1, No. 12, p. 2). Abdul Baha answered, "Friday." The questioner's intent in asking the question is unknown. Was he trying to find out when Baha'is believe the Sabbath is? Or was he asking Abdul Baha to institute a new "day of rest" for the Baha'i religion? In either case, it is clear that the questioner presumed a Sabbath existed. --In my opinion, the short answer from Abdul Baha suggests that the first question was being responded to. In other words, I believe he was saying that the Sabbath is on Friday. (The same Sabbath that Jews celebrate and everyone is familiar with.) It was a brief statement of fact, nothing surprising or new in it. If Abdul Baha was creating a new Holy Day, I believe more would have been said. Remember, Friday doesn't align completely with Jewish or Baha'i days. Independence starts Thursday at sunset and ends sunset on Friday, while sunset Friday is the beginning of the Sabbath and the first Baha'i weekday, Glory. There is no "Friday" in the Baha'i calendar, so Friday cannot be the Baha'i "day of rest." It must be Independence or Glory, and we have nothing specifying which it is. So, the question is, did Abdul Baha change the ages old Sabbath day with such a brief comment to a pilgrim? If he did, this would be monumental as all the Abrahamic Faiths acknowledge Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as the well established Sabbath day. For Christians, Jesus abrogated the strict Sabbath rules, not the day itself. Sunday is "the Lord's Day," not the Sabbath. For Muslims, Friday afternoon is the time for congregational prayer before the Jewish Sabbath begins. In short, there's no strong reason to believe that the Sabbath (day of rest) is not Glory, as it always has been. jkhalilprince, 14:15, July 2, 2014

One more thing and hopefully I'll shut up. If you are upset about the Sabbath being moved from the Seventh day to the first, you should realize that, with a global religion, the same moment in time can be both on the Seventh and First day simultaneously, depending on which side of the earth you are standing on. jkhalilprince, 14:30, July 2, 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkhalilprince (talk • contribs) 18:26, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

There's no mention in the article about the Baha'i 'seasons.' There are four:  Creation (3 sunths), Providence (4 sunths), Return (6 sunths), and Resurrection (6 sunths). jkhalilprince, 7:40, 4 July 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkhalilprince (talk • contribs)

--My edits didn't take, so here goes again. The first day of Ridvan was April 21, 1863, on the nineteenth year since the Bab's declaration. This was when Baha'u'llah entered the Garden of Paradise and shed the name of the All-Merciful on creation. The weekday this happened on was Grace. It is the same weekday as the Bab's martyrdom. On the ninth day of Ridvan, Baha'u'llah's family joined him in the Garden. This act of leaving his home and going into exile is compared to Muhammed's exile from Mecca to Medina. The Muslim calendar begins with the Hijri(exile) of Mohammed. The Baha'i Faith, as distinct from the Babi religion, begins with Baha'u'llah's declaration. This was on the ninth (the number of Baha)day there. This weekday was Justice. Then, on the final 12th day of Ridvan, Baha'u'llah leaves the Garden of Paradise to carry out His mission. Notice that this was on the 12th day, not the 9th or the 19th. "The number of months with Allah is twelve..." Koran 9:36 This happened on the Jewish Sabbath day. The weekday of Glory in the Badi' calendar, on a full moon. "It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time)." Koran 10:5 The Twin Birthdays, on Muharram 1 and 2 of the Islamic Hijri calendar, both happen on the same weekday, Justice. This may be why these Holy Days should be accounted as one day. " "When is the Day of Resurrection?" At length, when the sight is dazed, and the moon is buried in darkness and the sun and moon are joined together- " Koran 75:6-9 The Koran is authoritative Scripture in the Baha'i Faith. (The Koran is the Word of a Manifestation...in poetry, so that it is difficult to alter. Unless you have something contradictory from the Bab or Baha'u'llah, how can it be dismissed?) If the Sun is interpreted to be Baha'u'llah and the Moon is the Bab, then it is interesting that the Bab's Martyrdom happened on the eve of Ramadan, "buried in darkness" (at the new moon). It is reported that the city was enveloped in darkness from noon, when the Bab was killed, until nightfall. The people's sight was dazed and the light cut off by a powerful dust storm. Everything in the Baha'i Faith comes in Twins. The calendar is no different. Jkhalilprince, 15:20, July 5, 2014

This calendar article gets better every time I look. The recent and excellent letter from the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) added a great deal of solid information to rely upon. The reason I'm posting again is to suggest that the article point out that the changes that will be made this Naw Ruz are likely an incremental and measured step in the progressive unfoldment of the Baha'i calendrical system. More changes are likely in the future. Now before someone bites my head off, let me explain. If you look at the Question and Answer no. 36 in the Kitab-I-Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says, "Should the feasts celebrating the Twin Birthdays or the Declaration of the Bab fall within the month of fasting, the command to fast shall not apply on that day." This statement doesn't make sense unless these dates are linked to a lunar calendar which drifts through all the sunths of the Badi' Calendar. With the upcoming changes, the Twin Birthdays will never occur in the sunth of Loftiness (the Month of Fasting), nor will the Declaration of the Bab (the word "day" is in singular form, showing that the Declaration is included here as a drifting Holy Day and not a fixed solar date). Moreover, when Baha'u'llah said that the Twin Birthdays are to be celebrated on the first and second day of "Muharram," He effectively preserved the Islamic Calendar within the Baha'i system until the next Manifestation. (see Q and A no. 2) He didn't say the 1st and 2nd of some other lunar calendar, He didn't attach these Birthdays to a solar date, He didn't qualify His words, nor did He present an alternative method of reckoning the lunar date of these events. I believe the word "Muharram" in the Aqdas locks the Islamic Calendar into the Baha'i Calendar for good. The surprise for me was the quotation from Shoghi Effendi saying that in the future all the Holy Days would be attached to the solar calendar and provisions made for the Twin Birthdays. I haven't read the letter that this quote comes from, but I do know that context matters. People at the time were using either an entirely solar calendar or an entirely lunar one. It occurs to me that the word "provisions" here probably means that a stipulation or exception will be made for the Twin Birthdays that is different from the other Holy Days, i.e. they will stay on the lunar calendar. This particular sentence does not have to be read as meaning the Twin Birthdays (or the Declaration) will be made into solar dates. Otherwise, Shoghi Effendi would not have had to point out that "provisions" would be made. He could've just said that all the Holy Days would become solar, full stop. In my opinion, I don't think Shoghi Effendi was attempting to change what Baha'u'llah said, he was only summarizing it in his role as Interpreter/Guardian. --I believe the key to understanding this calendar is to see it as a Metonic calendar, not simply solar or lunar. It is the first of its kind and totally unique. Hence, it's name, Badi'. jkhalilprince — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:A:780:4252:7D7B:72B8:44E4:E74D (talk) 02:20, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

On the touchy issue of the Sabbath, I've already explained why I believe no change has been made. However, the Sabbath and the Day of Rest could be different things. Also, I have no idea whether Abdul Baha said, "Friday" or "Jumah." If he actually said, "Jumah" and we can rely on these pilgrim notes, then he was definitely referring to the Baha'i day, Independence. --An argument could be made that Independence is the true seventh day, Sabbath. Some Muslims say that the Jews added a day at some point over the millenia, but there is no documentary evidence to support this view. For Islam, Independence is on the Day of Congregation (Jumah) set by Muhammed. (There is an interesting parallel between balancing unity/diversity and congregation/independence there.) According to the Planetary Week, the seventh day was associated with Venus (Love), the fastest moving celestial body visible to the eye. (Saturn, associated with Saturday was the slowest) The planetary week is an ancient method of counting the days that goes back to at least Babylon and was based on the phases of the moon (new, half, and full). --The weekday may have been considered to start at sunset because the new moon starts with darkness. --The idea that the true Sabbath is Independence is an aesthetically pleasing position from a Baha'i perspective because the planet Venus takes about 19 days to traverse each of the zodiac signs. It also traces a five-pointed star every nine years, and for those who are unaware the five-pointed star is the true symbol of the Baha'i Faith. --This issue though can be a heated one and there isn't much reason to get stuck on it. Even if the note is reliable and the word was "Jumah", we could not say for sure that Abdul Baha's "day of rest" is the Sabbath because, as far as I know, there is nothing in the Sacred Writings to confirm that. Live and let live because "all things" (Kull-i-Shay) will return to God, the Transcendent (Al-Amna'i), the Most Holy (Al-Aqdas). And as Forest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that." jkhalilprince — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:A:780:4252:7D7B:72B8:44E4:E74D (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a forum. It has no room for original research, and it needs secondary sources to interpret primary source material, especially religion.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Inheritance from the Iranian calendar
First of all, Baha'u'llah did not make Naw Ruz the New Year. Naw Ruz has been the new year for Iranian peoples for millennia (and I don't just mean Persians).

Second and third, the "Badi Calendar", though distinct for abandoning natural lunar cycles (the ~12:1 lunar:solar ratio), inherits the ideas of feast days and intercalary days from the old Iranian Calendar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaweah (talk • contribs) 01:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I should also mention that the Baha'i calendar, as stipulated by Baha'u'llah (according to notes to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, begins when the sun passes through Aries (not at the first 12-hour day), which, due to precession, no longer happens at the vernal equinox.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/626277/vernal-equinox —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaweah (talk • contribs) 12:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The History section still credits Baha'u'llah with placing Naw Ruz on the Vernal Equinox, which he never did. The 2nd source cited parenthetically implies that he did, but that source is in error. Rather, Baha'u'llah placed Naw Ruz at the point that the Sun enters the constellation Aries, which does not occur near the Vernal Equinox. Naw Ruz does at present occur near the Equinox, but only because the Baha'i calendar no longer follows the astrological formula specified by Baha'u'llah. Kaweah (talk) 18:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In Note 26 of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas it is stated:
 * "The Báb introduced a new calendar, known now as the Badí' or Bahá'í calendar (see notes 27 and 147). According to this calendar, a day is the period from sunset to sunset. In the Bayán, the Báb ordained the month of 'Alá' to be the month of fasting, decreed that the day of Naw-Rúz should mark the termination of that period, and designated Naw-Rúz as the Day of God. Bahá'u'lláh confirms the Badí' calendar wherein Naw-Rúz is designated as a feast.
 * Naw-Rúz is the first day of the new year. It coincides with the spring equinox in the northern hemisphere, which usually occurs on 21 March. Bahá'u'lláh explains that this feast day is to be celebrated on whatever day the sun passes into the constellation of Aries (i.e. the vernal equinox), even should this occur one minute before sunset (Q&A 35). Hence Naw-Rúz could fall on 20, 21, or 22 March, depending on the time of the equinox.
 * Bahá'u'lláh has left the details of many laws to be filled in by the Universal House of Justice. Among these are a number of matters affecting the Bahá'í calendar. The Guardian has stated that the implementation, worldwide, of the law concerning the timing of Naw-Rúz will require the choice of a particular spot on earth which will serve as the standard for the fixing of the time of the spring equinox. He also indicated that the choice of this spot has been left to the decision of the Universal House of Justice."
 * Wiki-uk (talk) 14:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Even though the vernal equinox occurs at this time with the sun in Pisces, astronomers still call the position at which the sun crosses the celestial equator "the first point of Aries", and the symbol for the intersection of the ecliptic with the celestial equator at the beginning of spring is the sign, ♈, the symbol for Aries. - Parsa (talk) 17:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

What event?
What event in AD 1844 made the Bahai calendar start that year? I shall clarify what I mean with some examples. Anno Domini (Christianity) started when it did due to the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, Anno Hegirae (Islam) due to when Muhammad fled Mecca for Medina, Anno Mundi (Judaism) due to an alleged date of Creation, Anno Lucis (Masonic secular calendar) due to another alleged date of Creation contradicting that of Anno Mundi, and Ab Urbe Condita (Ancient Roman secular calendar) due to the founding of the City of Rome.

What analog to these happened with the Bahai so that this calendar started when it did? I see no mention of the starting event of this calendar in the Article. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:22, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The Declaration of the Báb on evening of May 22rd, 1844 (which Baha'is count as part of May 23rd), was the initiating event and completing the annular cycle meant back-dating the year to March 20th. Also cf the Great Disappointment. The calendar itself wasn't defined until a few years later but it was "rolled back" to start back then. Smkolins (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, there should be a link to the Article to which you directed me in this Article on the Bahai calendar. Perhaps such a link could be part of a New Section on the Declaration of the Bab as the starting event. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The Universal House of Justice selected Tehran as the starting point to determine Naw Ruz. This suggests that the event starting the solar aspect of the Bahá'í calendar was when Bahá'u'llah was visited by the Holy Spirit in prison and given a clear vision of His mission. Khalil Baha (talk) 16:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Names of days within the month
I believe the 19 days within a month bear the same names as the months themselves. Does anyone have a source on this? There would therefore be alternate ways to list a date. Thus Sunday, 1st of August, 2010 could be Jamál, 1 Kamál, 167 or Jamál, Bahá Kamál, 167... not to mention using the year within the Vahid as an alternate to the numbered year (167). - Parsa (talk) 19:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I added two sources. - Meauk (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Babi (Bayanic) version of the Calendar section
I'm searching for references. So far I'm finding none. I think baring references that the section would need to be condenced seriously. But I'm looking. Smkolins (talk) 23:44, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Found a couple references but no where near enough to support the extensive claims made. Re-wrote to support actual references from reliable sources. Smkolins (talk) 00:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Template
There have been many reversions of the Babism template, and I wanted the discussion to happen on the talk page. In most contexts in reliable sources the Babi and Baha'i movements are seen as one movement, and in fact many, but not all, Baha'i concepts have their initial impetus in some Babi concept. However, those concepts have come to be known and are notable because of the Baha'i expansion, both in terms of usage, as well as others learning about it. So it provides no helpfulness to the reader, to have both templates on this page. The concept is known to readers, as is importance in terms of notability simply put because the Baha'is use it. To have all concepts that are tangentially related to the initial Babi source both is inefficient in that it would tangentially mark a large number of pages with the Babi template, which is disruptive to readability, but more importantly it does not deal with the fact that most academic sources see the Babi-faith as the forerunner of the Baha'i Faith and see them as one, so it's not extra useful to the reader to have both templates. Warm regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 22:55, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * agreed. --Smkolins (talk) 00:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Change title to Badí‘ calendar?
Should this page not be moved to Badí‘ calendar? Wiki-uk (talk) 11:48, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it's most commonly known as the Baha'i calendar, and Wikipedia naming goes by what is most common. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Propose moving all lists of Holy Days to a new page
The Holy Days are not an intrinsic part of the calendar, so could stand on their own.Gplittle (talk) 17:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree; having a whole bunch of small pages does nothing to improve the readability of the encyclopedia. If this page was too long, past the normal limits (see Article_size, then it would make sense to break it up into summary style, but not at the moment.  Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 23:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The calendar, and the Holy Days of the Baha'i Faith, are completely different topics... proceeding to split them out to their own page, which can then grow with more content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gplittle (talk) 19:08, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Some points re the equinox needing clariification
There are some points in the article that need clarification. In particular, the section Bahá'í calendar begins with: "In 2014, the Universal House of Justice selected Tehran, the birthplace of Bahá'u'lláh, as the location to which the date of the vernal equinox is to be fixed...." Although this is an accurate paraphrase (practically a direct quote) of the source document, it comes across as ludicrous, suggesting that the moment of the equinox is dependent (or "fixed") on geographical location. This not true (see First Point of Aries for explanation). As explained here: "The entry of the sun into Aries (that is, the Spring Equinox) is an astronomical event and, therefore, occurs at one time for all places on earth. At that point in time, some places will be before sunset and some after. It was, therefore, necessary to fix the point on the earth’s surface where the sunset would determine on which day Naw-Rúz falls. [Emphasis added]"

That is, what is determined is not the moment of the equinox, but the day of the calendar that spans that moment. Which in this calendar is determined by sunset, which depends on a particular meridian and lattitude.

Another point that needs clarification is the "entry of the sun into Aries". This is confusing because First Point of Aries, which determines the vernal equinox, is no longer in the constellation of Aries. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Looks good. The footnote in question should be replaced with a current, authoritative source.Gplittle (talk) 23:19, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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Badí' vs Badíʿ
The name of the calendar ends with the Arabic "ayin" letter. According to Ayin, in Unicode, the recommended character for the transliteration of ayin is ʿ (U+02BF) "modifier letter left half ring".--Gplittle (talk) 14:56, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi GP. Baha'i orthography notes that Bahai recommendations use a turned comma ('okina). They don't use Semiticist #02BF, and as you note the apostrophe is ambiguous. — kwami (talk) 21:10, 4 December 2019 (UTC)