Talk:Baka

Untitled
I have never heard this folk story before. I believe that it is an incorrect interpretation of a Chinese idiom 指鹿為馬 (point to a deer and call it a horse): In Qin dynasty, 趙高, the high official who really held the power, wanted to test the loyality of other officals (to him). To do so, he pointed to a deer and call it a horse, then anyone who dared to correct his mistake was regarded as a treat and was later eliminated.

Therefore, this idiom means "confound right and wrong intentionally". Wshun


 * I'll have to look into it, but I had always heard the story that Zhao Gao eliminated--by either firing or killing, can't recall--those advisors who failed to correct him, since he didn't want to be surrounded by yes men. Internet sources everywhere seem to contradict each other, I suppose I'll hit up a library someday soon. --AsianAstronaut 12:03, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Many kanji in Japanese have legendary etymologies, more used as mnemonics than chosen for accuracy. User:Ashibaka

I heard that baka is derived from Sanskrit "moha" (unconsciousness, delusion of mind, ignorance). "moha" is usually transcribed as 莫迦 in Chinese characters. 馬鹿 was originally a Buddhist jargon and seems "ateji" or characters that represent the sound without the meaning. But it's very likely that the coiner(s) assosiated ばか with 指鹿為馬 when selecting the characters 馬 and 鹿. --Nanshu 03:01, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Does this entry really belong in Wikipedia? What's next, neko?
 * neko? what is this neko? the only def i could find was cat. def plz --Rey

What do you think about the theory that Baka is derived from portuguese "Vaca", (Cow) and became popular after the japanese-portuguese trade routes? Is that just a false etymology? (If there exists examples before the trade route, it should disprove this theory with certainty...)
 * i got ¥20 says it's false --Rey

What the hell is that last piece of garbage about dancing bakas? That should be taken out.

That Japanese baka.
Shouldn't we put the Japanese meaning of baka as stupid in? I've seen 5-6 different people tried to edit that in, only to be reverted out. This could go on forever, since every anime fan who listens to Japanese soundtrack would remember the word immediately. In the end, it would only lead to an ongoing edit war.

Come on, what's to lose anyway? Neko has its own disambiguation page full of cat-related contents. Kuso goes further, having its own article. Why can't we just put one sentence Japanese definition in once and for all? - DTRY 22:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that this goes directly against our manual of style for disambiguation pages:

For foreign-language terms, be sure an article exists or could be written for the word or phrase in question. Usually this means that the term has been at least partially adopted into English or is used by specialists.
 * {| style="border: 1px solid black" width=100%

Avoid adding lines for words or phrases that are simply spelled the same as an English term. For example:
 * Tambo may refer to:
 * Tambo (weapon), a very short staff used in martial arts
 * }
 * }
 * not: Tambo, a Japanese word (&#30000;&#12435;&#12412;) for rice paddy


 * The "an article exists or could be written" clause doesn't apply here, since we used to have an entire article on the insult, but it was deleted on WP:NOT grounds (Wikipedia is not a translation dictionary). What we could do is include the template wiktionary, which does include the Japanese word (among many others). — Amcaja ( talk ) 01:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I see. That guideline explains a lot.

Problem is, how do you explain the Neko page? It is also a disambiguation page. Yet it has the Japanese meaning right on the top. Half of its links involve the said meaning. I seriously doubt that the term neko has been adoped into English or used by specialists. But then again, I'm not either English or American and could be wrong.

Checking the Wiktionary, I found that neko in Bosnian and Serbian mean "someone." Yet in the neko page, it only list the Japanese meaning. Isn't that against the guideline?

For baka, Wiktionary gives many more meanings from eleven different languages. However, I doubt that English users are exposed to Crimean, Kiput, or Tagalog meaning as much as the Japanese one. Since both neko and baka are both Japanese words people mostly learn from watching anime, they should get the same treatment.

Of course, it's against the guideline. But the last section of the guideline says "These guidelines are intended for consistency, but usefulness to the reader is the principal goal. So ignore these guidelines if you have a good reason." - DTRY 01:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly speaking, I would be offended if the Baka page began like the Neko page, with a statement to the effect of, "Baka is the Japanese word for fool", thus placing that meaning as the "primary" one and relegating two ethnic groups to lesser status. But the real difference is that most of the meanings on the neko page relate to the Japanese term, whereas the entries on this page do not relate to Japanese (except for the slang term used by Allied forces in WWII). At any rate, I don't think neko should include the Japanese dictionary definition at all, as it violates WP:MOSDAB. And I'm not sure why otaku adopting a word from anime should make make much difference. We used to have an entry on kawaii, for example, but it was moved to the appropriate English name. Common Japanese words, as common as they are among otaku, are not common English words. — Amcaja ( talk ) 03:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't mean that the Japanese meaning of baka should have been put on top of the page the way neko is (and that would be ridiculous as well.) My point is, the Japanese meaning of baka is recognized by a lot of people (some are otakus, some are casual anime watchers) and should be noted somewhere in the page. Baka as in fool is not as prevalent as neko as in cat. Therefore it shouldn't be put on top as a primary meaning, but rather somewhere at the bottom - for the Japanese meaning has the same notability as the others.

I understand why you object my proposal. But I have to disagree with you on this:
 * "Common Japanese words, as common as they are among otaku, are not common English words."

Well, there are lots of articles spawned from anime and otaku culture. Moe (which also has its own entry in the Moe disambiguation page), meganekko (glasses girl), nekomusume (all entries in this disambiguation page are about catgirls), and many, many more. All of them have extensive articles. Therefore I see no harm in ignoring the disambiguation guideline a bit to put a word with an increasing notability in. - DTRY 16:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * :) You're saying this to the person who vehemently opposed the naming of the seiyu article and advocated it be moved to voice acting in Japan so as to not conflict with our Use English naming guideline. I'd recommend that most of the articles you mention be moved to English titles instead (glasses catgirl, for example). So, I still reject the addition of a foreign-language term to this page simply because anime fans (sorry if the term otaku was misleading, I was using it for both casual and diehard fans) may recognize it. Perhaps if we're at loggerhaeads, we should bring this up on the talk page of WP:MOSDAB? — Amcaja ( talk ) 22:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Content was replaced with a different article
Article on baka, the term, was replaced with baka, the disambiguation page, here. Just in case anyone was wondering where it went. —Tokek (talk) 16:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)