Talk:Bakeneko

What about the bakeneko of Sagahan?
"the story of the bakeneko of Sagahan is especially famous"; now I'm curious. What did it do? Why is it so famous? I just can't find anything on google. --Εξαίρετος (msg) 17:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That came over when I translated the article from the Japanese version. I'm rewriting now though, so I don't know if I will re-add it. Kotengu 05:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Section below is from the Nekomata Talk Page, prior to being merged here
Archiving it here just to be thorough. Kotengu 06:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger

 * Oppose. Nekomata and Nekomusume are not the same.  If anything, nekomusume and catgirls are the same thing (the latter is the pop culture manifestation of the former).  To merge Nekomata and Neomusue together would be a grand mistake.--み使い Mitsukai 18:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the person above! the only thing about these two that are similer in the least is the Japanese word neko(cat)! this is like mergeing dragons and aligators because they have scales! do not merge nekomata and nekomusume! user:Jeshi-kun
 * Oppose

I suggest a merging with bakeneko
 * Bakeneko
 * I agree with this; I'm researching the subject right now and there really is no appreciable difference between the two; a nekomata is just what a bakeneko is called when its tail is forked. Kotengu 05:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

There are now two redundant "in popular culture" sections. The first should be merged to the second.Winged Cat (talk) 23:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also two articles since somebody felt the need to paste an expanded version below the first, instead of above the frivolous pop culture section where stuff like that belongs. The new version also seems to be a slightly-reworded version of this, which in turn is pretty much a swiped version of my obakemono article with a few things tweaked. Kotengu 小天狗 (talk) 00:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually there is a slight difference between the two. Bakeneko are purely shapeshifters (Henge Yokai) while the Nekomata are purely Monster Cats that cannot shapeshift. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.51.217 (talk) 06:16, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Got any source for that? Because yokai simply are not defined in that way. There is no strict chart of abilities and limitations for yokai. They are creatures of folklore, not superheroes with defined abilities. Osarusan (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

hyakumonogatari.com/2012/04/21/nekomata-the-split-tailed-cat/ The author's teacher was Shigeru Mizuki, and he had authority concerning Yokai. It is a common mistake to make outside of Japan because Nekomata, and Bakeneko despite being both Cat-Yokai that they do have separate abilities. I knew I was going to face opposition because every other authority of Yokai will give a different answer, and no one wants to agree on anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.51.217 (talk) 04:17, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is further evidence to suggest it as well:

hyakumonogatari.com/2012/06/03/bakeneko-the-changing-cat/ The umbrella term for all cat-yokai is really Kaibyo which would fit better for most cat yokai if we need to have some kind of technical solution, and it is a optional thing to add. Also I saw your other post, and I've read your website in the past which is pretty helpful in some ways, but I had some issues that clashed that didn't make a lot of sense, and stumbled across the Hyaku that helped with most of the confusion. You are correct to say it is mostly nebulous (which is why I said no authority on Yokai will ever agree with eachother), but I think there are indeed some errors in my personal opinion, but not to say you're incorrect, I just have issues. Also it does not help the Wikipedia is infamous on confusing readers on any subject. This is probably not the right format to discuss, but I feel you, and Zack (who runs the blog) ought to do a team-up about Yokai. There is also another person who runs a site called the Yokai-Grove. You three out of all of most sources on the net right now have the most direct access to Japanese Folklore, and it would help greatly to fix the many issues on Wikipedia-English Yokai because of the amount of errors that have not been fixed in years. Also there is Onmarkproductions who has a treasure trove of sources, and he had been at this for a long time, but he mostly focuses on the Deities, and Religion, and somewhat on specific yokai like the Tengu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.51.217 (talk) 04:27, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually Zack and I communicate frequently, and he edited both of my books. (Just a correction: Mizuki wasn't Zack's teacher, Zack is a translator and he has done translations of a lot of Mizuki's work.) Anyway, I agree with you that the two pages shouldn't be merged. I am just trying to caution against over-defining yokai and saying "this one does this, and that one does that." The reason that every "authority" (if there can even be an authority) gives a different definition is because of the nature of folklore. It is contradictory and confusing by nature. Yokai can't be truly and accurately defined. The best you can get is "pretty close." Osarusan (talk) 11:51, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I see. I misunderstood his blog posts, thank you for the information. I guess another way to look at this is how you define it based on different interpretations, and reason why so many mangas, and anime have a tendency to deviate from the actual sources, and it remains true to what they are. Like how Inuyasha defined Mu-onna as a Demon (which is Oni), but others will think Yurei, and etc, and etc. No strict guidelines, and only based on how they view it. Thus the nebulous interpretation. I did something like that with mine take using modern-Japanese terms that didn't exist in the Folklore for my own personal use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.51.217 (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes. The hard part about working with folklore (Japanese or otherwise) is that it just that -- "folk" lore. And every group of people will have a different definition. Ask 100 people what an elf is and you'll get 100 different answers. They are 6 inch tall cobblers, they live in trees, they make cookies, they are 6 feet tall, they are archers, they are wizards, they are tricksters, and so on... Obviously these are conflicting and even contradictory descriptions, but they are all correct. Yokai and obake work the same way. That makes it hard to accurately describe them, but that is also what makes them so special. Osarusan (talk) 03:12, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Removal of a so-called popular reference
I'm removing the reference to the Harry Potter series, as Prof. McGonagall was not a cat with the ability to shapeshift into a human, but a woman who had the ability to shapeshift into a cat. Eellee (talk) 07:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Source
A book source, available online, for the bakeneko origin and definition can be found here. KellenT 19:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Way too many pop culture refs?
I'd say the pop-culture refs should be cut down. For example, there are two separate entries for the Shin Megami videogames. Couldn't they be condensed into a single entry? Really, I have learnt more about the Shin Megami games than I did about Bakeneko! Jamshyd (talk) 02:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Edits needed
I'm still relatively new to editing on wikipedia, but to my eye this article has some serious problems. I would like to put these items up for consideration to be edited on, since I feel I don't have the experience to fix them properly myself:

Citations

There are no inline citations as required here. In my opinion this makes verifying the sources used difficult.

Spell checking is needed. Also, is it bakeneko, or bake-neko? I see both spellings in the article, and no explanation in the talk.

Some sections suffer from tone issues. Tone should be more businesslike, as outlined here. The article contains expressions like "^^" and "yay" as expressed by the author(s). These need to be removed.

This article appears to have original research. The example that gives me this opinion is: In another variation I heard she went on a killing spree and annilated the fisherman's entire family first, despite them being un-involved, then killed him. But the old couple lived happily afterwords. Yay. Wikipedia does not condone original research. So these bits of original research need to be cited or removed. I feel the article needs more research to be well-rounded as a personal opinion.

As another personal opinion, the legends section needs to be given more structure and purpose.

 'In popular culture' needs balance, criteria All of the examples are of nekomata, which while similar, seem to have some minor differences differences. Some balance should be given towards bakeneko. I also feel that some of the examples link to nekomata are tenous, and a number should be removed. The example I give is Espeon, which is more foxlike than catlike.

I'm sorry if any of this came across as rude. I mean no offense. (Getfightted (talk) 10:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC))

also removed and reposted this, as I made a mistake placing it.

Kasha
The article mentions the nekomata variation of bakeneko, but not kasha, which are bakeneko that carry the bodies of sinners to the underworld. 207.216.222.107 (talk) 04:40, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Expansion
This article is incomplete and needs be expanded. Information on its Etymology, variations of the legend, and reported incidents involving the creature need to be added to the article with proper citations given for its information. Some sections still need to be expanded upon and in some cases rewritten. The "Other Stuff" section is not appropriately titled and should be given a title in relation to its information. Some information in the article is unsourced and should either be removed or given proper citations if they exist. This article has potential to become GA and/or FA status if enough attention is paid to it. Hopefully this article gets the attention it deserves.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:59, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Modern popular culture
Would it be appropriate to include a reference to Samurai Cat? Would it need a citation linking Samurai Cat to Bakeneko? — PhilHibbs | talk 15:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


 * No, certainly not. It's a constant fight to keep trivial pop culture lists off of the folklore pages. If you think it's something worth mentioning, then you should have the Samurai Cat page link to the Bakeneko page, not the other way around. Osarusan (talk) 22:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)