Talk:Baking powder/Archive 1

Chemical Formula
User:Inkbeat asked: "Baking soda, baking powder... they really are the same. Except baking powder has acid. Minor difference. HOWEVER, it should still have a chemical formula, right?"
 * Well, baking soda is just a simple compound -- sodium bicarbonate -- so it can be expressed as a formula. Baking powder is a mixture containing a number of compounds, depending on the brand and formulation.  At its simplest, you can maybe express it as NaHCO3 (baking soda) + KC4H5O6 (potassium hydrogen tartrate, or Cream of Tartar), but there are two problems.  First, there's usually a number of other compounds in the mixture -- they may not even use the tartrate as the acid.  It may contain corn starch, too.  The second problem is that I'm not sure that's the correct way to show the reaction.  At the very least, you'd have to add "+ H20" to it, as well. --Mdwyer 02:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Baking powder is a mixture. The mixture varies depending on the manufacturer. There is not a fixed chemical formula. --Cheminterest (talk) 22:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Safety of Homemade Baking Powder
There seems to be a lot of concern about the safety of cream of tartar. Please see Talk:Tartaric_acid for a little bit more on this. I agree that you shouldn't scarf down 12g of it, but then that is 1/4 of a 2oz container ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0005XNA18 ) for ONE PERSON, when you're probably baking for at least four people. I'm not quite comfortable putting the warning in there when I cannot back it up with more than one off-hand note. If you want to put it back, go ahead, but I'd recommend noting that some acids are faster or slower acting (which is why c of t is used over faster-acting lemon juice) and there are concerns that tartaric acid may not be safe in larger quantities. --Mdwyer 13:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments, Mdwyer. I feel, on reflection, that what I put in about cream of tartar originally (especially including a quotation from a book) was too long, and slightly off topic for an article on baking powder. I've restored a shorter version, with no book extract, just to make it known that some nutritionists recommend avoiding cream of tartar. I think (or I hope!) that what I have now doesn't stick out. I feel that people are unlikely to take 12g of it, but still, if they think it can help with a stomach upset, they could take two teaspoons of it in a glass of water, and that's certainly way over what should be taken! AnnH ♫ 20:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I like what you have put back. I think that will do nicely.  I have added a Usage section, and made a few changes to your section to make it fit a little better (we both talk about acidic foods).
 * People use C of T as a stomach ache remedy? I have heard of people using too much baking powder as an indigestion remedy and bursting their stomaches. Ew.  Have you considered adding information about toxicity to the C of T page? --Mdwyer 03:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about the relevance of the warnings about cream of tartar that seem to be popping up all over the place. Unless there is some evidence other than assertions by Erica White then I don't think the warning should be included. The Wikipedia article on nutritionists itself notes that "It should be noted that anyone (whether with or without formal specialised education) can refer to themselves as a nutritionist. There is no regulatory body for nutritionists."

Sure, cream of tartar is probably unsafe if you were to eat a whole cup full of it. But no-one actually does. Given that sort of definition, we'd be putting up unnecessary warnings about all sorts of things. I'm not going to delete it, but as someone with a degree in food science and nutrition I have to say I think it's pretty ridiculous and is the sort of thing that undermines the credibility of Wikipedia as a source of reliable information. If I want to be bombarded with crackpot opinions I'll use Google. Gamsarah 22:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

How much salt??
As a reader I need to know how much salt to put with how much backing poweder or is it there alrealy??
 * I'm pretty sure that salt is not required for the leavening action of baking powder. It moderates yeasts, but I don't think it does anything to baking powder.  In the case of biscuits, salt is added only for flavor.  I would assume about a half teaspoon per cup of flour, but I'm just guessing right now.
 * Also, I believe baking powder adds a small amount of sodium to food, but not from NaCl salt. --Mdwyer 06:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

How much Na2CO3 in baking powder?
Can anyone tell me how much Na2HCO3 thee is in baking powder.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Masteward (talk • contribs) 13:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
 * First of all, I think you mean NaHCO3 (baking soda). In any case, I still can't answer your question.  Different baking powders have different formulations -- some may not even use NaHCO3. --Mdwyer 15:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

longetivity of baking powder.
I heard that baking powder doesn't last very long. My gourmet cousing said one month is the tops. I found that hard to believe. But just this morning, I made aebelskivers with a baking powder I opened 6 months ago, and they came out much flatter. In fact, when cousin made aebelskivers with his brand new baking soda, they came out totally spherical. And his mother said she had never seen an aebelskiver come out spherical. (Aebelskivers are little Danish pancakes made in a pan with half-spherical indentations. The pan looks kind of like an egg poacher) -KellyN —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.215.199.12 (talk) 15:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Too Americanised
This article uses the terms 'baking soda' (UK: bicarbonate of soda or sodium bicarbonate) and 'cup' (as a measurement). Could someone internationalise it?
 * The use of 'baking soda' not only explained in the first line of the article, but is wiki-linked to sodium bicarbonate as well. I belive this is sufficient, and to replace all would not improve readability.  I also don't think the measurments should change, based on UNITS and a stretch from Manual_of_Style.  Besides, what would you like us to replace cup with?  The correct units for flour should probably be grams, but if I was to figure that out, that part of the article would no longer make sense.  The point of that is to illustrate the 1c:1c:1t ratios. --Mdwyer (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that IUPAC chemical names and SI measurements should be used instead of the less common English measurements. --Cheminterest (talk) 21:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Prof. Banket
I removed the edit below. I can't find any evidence of this Professor. Does he have a first name, for instance? So I've removed it. If someone can source this, please let us know! --Mdwyer (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * August Oetker, a German pharmacist, and Professor Banket, an amateur alchemist and business man, made baking powder very popular when they began selling their mixture to housewives

77-year-old reference?
I'm willing to believe that chemicals are harmful, but we're basing the statement that aluminum in baking powder is harmful on a textbook that's almost an octogenarian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freerangelibrarian (talk • contribs) 15:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This comment appears to refer to the reference [1]Everyman's Encyclopaedia 1931 which is not the reference for aluminum. That reference is [3]Kids.Net.Au-baking powder. Perhaps the whole topic of aluminum should be reviewed since Calumet Baking Powder today (at least in the US) does contain Sodium Aluminum Sulfate.CarolH (talk) 18:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that the topic of aluminum should be reviewed and strengthened. I've exchanged emails with a person from Clabber Girl baking powder. She says that the toxic substance is metallic aluminum, not what is in their product. She declines further conversation, though. I don't trust the Aussie kids' site, especially when it says that aluminum was removed from baking powder in the 80s, and contemporary U.S. baking powder uses aluminum. It would be good to find an authoritative source on baking powder somewhere. What we have are cookbooks and company marketing material. They're OK, but we need something more reliable. Lou Sander (talk) 20:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Metallic aluminum has low toxicity (a penny is just as toxic), but there are several absorbent aluminum salts that are extremely toxic. Aluminum in baking powder does not have any immediate harmful effects, but it may build up with chronic uses. --Cheminterest (talk) 22:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

pH Levels and All That Scientific Jazz
I'm wondering whether anyone has any clues on what the recommended pH of baking batters should be. I don't have any baking powder, and I no longer plan to get any, but I'm interested to know about this. If not pH levels, maybe a taste description or comparison? --ArtifexCrastinus (talk) 09:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The pH of batters can be a range from acidic for citrus tasting batters, to slightly basic for some other flavors. It doesn't tend to be much of a worry, though. --Cheminterest (talk) 22:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Aluminum phased out: Questionable Claim
I removed the claim that aluminum was phased out of baking powder in the 1980s. I couldn't find any corroborating source for it, and I found many sources that state that aluminum compounds are still used. The Australian children's site that was the source of the claim doesn't seem to be a very reliable source for information on the content of food chemicals. Lou Sander (talk) 01:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved all the aluminum information into one section, including all the valid references that were in the article when I started. A couple of the links didn't apply, so I removed them. I hope that the concerns about aluminum are now handled to the satisfaction of all, and that all the references are appropriate to the subject. Lou Sander (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Good reference works
Found some good industrial/scientific references in Google Books, but I don't know how to cite them for this article.

http://www.google.com/books?id=1OhFPZ7tFz8C&printsec=frontcover&lr=#PPA771,M1

http://www.google.com/books?id=ckfdE5sRbqAC&printsec=frontcover#PPA193,M1

http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&printsec=frontcover#PPA67,M1

Plus, a PDF: http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_12CHEM.PDF

—Preceding unsigned comment added by BW95 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * These are great references! I've added them to the External links section. What is preferred is to use these things as inline references -- use them as sources for material in the main article, and refer to them in footnotes. This probably requires some rewriting of the article (to make it conform to what's in the references), and it surely requires some reformatting of the references. The reformatting is a technical editing matter, but it's not too hard, once you see how it's done. I'd be glad to help you. Post something on my talk page, or send me some email. Lou Sander (talk) 12:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Double-acting may not be correctly explained
The article now says:
 * Baking powders that contain both fast- and slow-acting acids are double acting; those that contain only one acid are single acting.

Rumford Baking Powder label says DOUBLE ACTING and also says
 * Ingredients: Monocalcium Phosphate, Bicarbonate of Soda, Cornstarch (From Nongenetically Modified Corn).

This double-acting baking powder has only one acid: Monocalcium phosphate, Ca(H2PO4)2. This contradicts the article, which says that double acting baking powders have at least two acids. Anomalocaris (talk) 08:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The Matz reference is a high-level book that explains double acting. It differs from the article as it stands now. Somebody could easily fix the articleby incorporating the info from Matz. I don't have time right now. Lou Sander (talk) 02:13, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There is lack of clarity on the definition of "double acting." Since Matz was mentioned, let's quote him first: "Double-acting powders are really a version of the slow-acting type which exhibit somewhat more gas production potential during mixing and on the bench." The problem, though, is that he is the only source I've seen who defines double-acting baking powder in this fashion, and this definition also doesn't fit well with (or is just too vague for) the double-acting powders that do contain two acids (it also doesn't fit Rumford's formulation, as I'll get to in a bit). I suppose both definitions can be addressed in the main article, but I think it would be misleading to use Matz's alone.


 * Specific to the case of Rumford, please realize that monocalcium phosphate (MCP) is made both in monohydrate (MCP-H) and coated anhydrous (CAMCP) forms. MCP-H is quick-acting, but the coating on CAMCP delays the gas-forming reaction. The coating material will show up only in trace quantities under analysis, and my guess is that this means they're not required to be listed on the ingredients label. This being the case, we don't know (and they won't tell, I'm sure) what is the exact MCP formulation in Rumford's baking powder. It's possible that both MCP-H and CAMCP are used to produce gas in two stages. It's also possible that only CAMCP is used, and its delayed gas release approximates the behavior of powders that contain two acids. However, this would make it a fast-acting type that produces gas later than usual, which contradicts Matz's definition (i.e., a slow-acting type that produces gas earlier than usual).


 * Someone better versed at searching through US laws can help here (heaven knows I tried but got nowhere), but the only federal regulation about baking powder I know of is a requirement for minimum carbon dioxide release, so it may be the case that "double acting" is a phrase with no regulatory meaning, and Rumford can call their baking powder double-acting simply because they feel like it. BW95 (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Baking powder may undergo two reactions. The acid may react with the NaHCO3 to produce carbon dioxide, and the NaHCO3 may thermally decompose. That is what double acting may mean for some baking powders. --Cheminterest (talk) 22:06, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Cookies (American) and biscuits (British)
I removed the claim that baking powder is used in these generally hard, flat, sweet baked goods. It had no citations, and a quick review of recipes revealed that such items usually use baking soda, not baking powder, as a leavening agent. Scones and American biscuits, on the other hand, DO customarily use baking powder, as is made clear in their Wikipedia articles and confirmed by a similar recipe check. Lou Sander (talk) 04:52, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Aluminum
why does it have Aluminum in it? == —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.246.254.35 (talk) 02:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Aluminum may be used, since the aluminum ion is acidic, as an acidic agent that reacts with the sodium bicarbonate. Some use hydrogen ion instead, though, such as monocalcium phosphate (CaH4(PO4)2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheminterest (talk • contribs) 22:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

'Raising agent' or 'Leavening agent'?
Have we go=t a reference that describes baking powder as a leavening agent? I would describe it as a raising agent. OED describes 'leavening agent' as 'A substance which is added to dough to produce fermentation'. The wp page on leavening agents is unreferenced so no help there. I've changed it to raising agent as per OED - raising agent n. Baking a substance, such as yeast or baking powder, which is used in dough or batter to make it rise during (and sometimes before) baking. 92.25.88.203 (talk) 23:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems to me this is a matter of style rather than absolute definition. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary includes both yeast and baking powder in its definition of "leaven", my Encyclopedia Britannica classifies baking powder as a chemical leavening agent, and most of the references at the bottom of the main article use "leavening" when discussing baking powder (IIRC the lone exception uses "aeration" instead of either "leavening" or "raising"). BW95 (talk) 03:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Nutrition info
This section was added to the main article a few days ago. I just took it down. While the information in it was technically correct, it was also misleading. Basically, no one ever eats an ounce of baking powder at one time. The US FDA (21 CFR 101.12(b) Table 2) specifies a single serving of baking powder as only 0.6 grams (0.02 oz), meaning that, for example, sodium levels would be at around 3% to 4% of DV per serving instead of the >100% figure originally noted in the section.

That said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to include nutrition information in the article, but the sources are difficult to cite (there is no choice on Nutritiondata.com that corresponds to the UD FDA serving size, and the UDSA's nutrient database doesn't have pages that are directly linkable). In addition, exact figures will depend on the powder's formulation, which varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. BW95 (talk) 21:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Buttermilk
I replaced a reference and link to "buttermilk biscuits" with those to "biscuits (bread)". Baking powder is a basic ingredient of all North American biscuits. Buttermilk biscuits are a special type of these, and, in fact, the acidic buttermilk lessens or eliminates the need for baking powder. All this stuff is covered in the various articles relating to the subjects involved. Lou Sander (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Is sodium bicarbonate an alkaline component or an acid salt?
The article states that: "...baking powders are made up of an alkaline component (typically sodium bicarbonate, also known as baking soda), one or more acid salts, and an inert starch...". However, if you follow the link for "acid salts" that page states: "examples are sodium bicarbonate". That would imply that one of these articles is wrong (unless sodium bicarbonate is both an alkaline component and an acid salt, it which case it probably doesn't need to be listed twice). Zed Orkin (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the intro paragraph you quote needs to be reworked and possibly the article restructured. For one thing the paragraph ignores the aluminum and calcium compounds that are often present.  My can of Calumet Baking Powder lists exactly these ingredients in order: Baking Soda, Cornstarch, Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, Calcium Sulfate, and Moncalcium Phosphate.CountMacula (talk) 01:17, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Update External Link
I am the program coordinator of the ACS-National Historic Chemical Landmarks program. I have updated the references to ACS-NHCL web content, as those pages are being replaced. KLindblom (talk) 22:06, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

ground coal powder used in Chinese baking?
I am very skeptical of this sentence "In China, a small amount of powdered coal may be added to baking soda to simulate baking powder." It claims to have a reference but the reference (if accurate) is an obscure long out of print book. I don't really know anything about Chinese culture, but it seems to me there are easier and less toxic ways to reduce the alkalinity of baking soda if desired (such as vinegar and other edible items mentioned in the article.) I'm reluctant to remove the sentence from the article without a discussion, on the other hand, this sentence appears to have had a 'verification needed' tag for over a year without discussion or edits. thoughts anyone?

Marcus Licinius Crassus (talk) 04:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Since no-one has spoken up either way on this I am removing this sentence from the article until if/when someone can back up the claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcus Licinius Crassus (talk • contribs) 21:32, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

circular definition for baking soda and baking powder
1. Currently a redirect exists from Baking Soda to Baking Powder. However only in the parenthesised second clause of the second para of the intro is and reference made to it: "Most commercially available baking powders are made up of an alkaline component (typically sodium bicarbonate, also known as BAKING SODA)...etc."

The redirect therefore appears either incorrect and/or inaccurate and requires ammending/deleting. IMO the chemical detail should be included AFTER the distinctions and fundamentals are set out.

2. Under History the article reads: "Early chemical leavening was accomplished by activating baking soda in the presence of liquid(s)... The development of baking powder created a system...etc."

This creates a circularity when read in the context of the redirect and the bulk of the content of Introduction.

The circularity and lack of clarity can be seen by contrasting the presentation of the two materials in the article with the equivalent of that on Ask.com where it reads simply:

"Baking soda is pure sodium bicarbonate.... Baking powder contains sodium bicarbonate, but it includes...etc."

LookingGlass (talk) 16:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Baking soda is the American term for what is commonly called "bicarb" in the UK and Commonwealth (bicarbonate of soda, sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3, a chemical salt from the mineral natron).

Bicarb / baking soda is one of the constituents of UK baking powder (Fr. levure chimique, Ger. Backpulver) -- the others being an acidifying agent like cream of tartar (potassium bitartrate, KC4H5O6), and a drying agent like starch. Other compositions use different acidifying agents, such as sodium aluminium sulphate (soda alum) or sodium aluminium phosphate (e541), because they only react at baking temperatures, thus making the baking mix (dough or batter) less time-critical.

Baking powder is neutral in pH and taste, while bicarb is a base and causes a bitter or soapy taste unless neutralised by an acidic ingredient.

I use the phrase "UK baking powder" above because the term is now also appearing in America, where it is used for (UK) "double-action baking powder": some gas releases at room temperature while resting, but the majority is released when heated.

Max Szabó 109.84.3.192 (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2013 (UTC)