Talk:Baldur von Schirach

Sexuality
"According to Lothar Machtan's The Hidden Hitler, page 229, von Schirach was bisexual."

Can we have some solid evidence, please. Even if true, is this of any value regarding BvS at all? John.St (talk) 00:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Adding sexual orientation category to this biography is a WP:CAT/R violation. For a dead person, there must be a verified consensus of reliable published sources that the description is appropriate. For example, while some sources have claimed that William Shakespeare was gay or bisexual, there is not a sufficient consensus among scholars to support categorizing him as such. Similarly, a living person who is caught in a gay prostitution scandal, but continues to assert their heterosexuality, can not be categorized as gay. Categories that make allegations about sexuality – such as "closeted homosexuals" or "people suspected to be gay" – are not acceptable under any circumstances. If such a category is created, it should be immediately depopulated and deleted. Note that as similar categories of this type have actually been attempted in the past, they may be speedily deleted (as a G4) and do not require another debate at Categories for discussion.

The Source? Lothar Machtan's The Hidden Hitler asserts that von Schirach was bisexual. One claim- is not a sufficient consensus among scholars to support categorizing him as such..

We need several reliable sources for category claims. It may well be that such sources are indeed available and you can list them in the article - but if not, then who is saying that these people fit the bill? Just deciding that you think they fit the description is Original Research - and that's not allowed here. I need to see a few reliable little blue number in each categorization that links to a reference document that can be examined to confirm Basic Academic rigour. User: Pgarret (talk) 10:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC).


 * The Hidden Hitler was widely derided.
 * In Oliver Rathkolb's book "Baldur von Schirach" (chapter 7), he mentions Schirach's affair with Katharina Dobbs. American psychiatrist Douglas Kelley interviewed Schirach many times at Nuremberg. "Kelley dismissed the rumours about Schirach’s alleged homosexuality; quite on the contrary, Schirach violently prevented homosexuality in the Hitler Youth while cautiously promoting heterosexual relations between HJ boys and BDM girls. Within the HJ, Schirach intensified the persecution of homosexuals via an internal observation apparatus from 1935 onwards." (Rathkolb chapter 13) cagliost (talk) 12:26, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Otto Strasser called Schirach "a young effeminate", and Walter Charles Langer in The Mind of Adolf Hitler wrote Schirach "is reputed to be a homosexual". But both sources are generally unreliable: Strasser was a "left-wing Nazi" who fled the regime, and Langer's book is a collection of rumours written in 1943. cagliost (talk) 09:31, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * From the current Jürgen Ohlsen article: "At the time, BBC broadcasts into Germany routinely spread scandalous stories about Nazi officials and other German  public figures.  One of these stories alleged that Ohlsen was a homosexual and the lover of Hitler Youth leader Baldur von Schirach. The rumor caught on in Germany and by at least the fall of 1938, the verb "quexen" (literally "to quex") had entered the Hitler Youth vocabulary as a euphemism for homosexual intercourse.  "

Henry Gerecke
Please examine my edit more carefully. I read the profile about the IMT chaplain, and that material is correct as cited. The other material, about BvS being confirmed, is marked with a "citation needed" tag. Unless you have information which shows that it is NOT TRUE, the CN tag is sufficient for the time being, and should be given some time for someone to come up woth a citation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:57, 21 June 2023 (UTC)


 * No, you should examine my edit summaries more carefully! The claim Schirach moved away from the church is not true according to Rathkolb, who says he remained a Protestant. Source Miller says he was a Lutheran. The unsourced claim that Schirach was confirmed has been in the article for over two years, plenty of "time for someone to come up woth a citation." Anyway, unsourced information should not be added in the hope that someone "comes up with a citation" later. I don't need to provide sources that something is not true, you need to provide sources that it is true! WP:PROVEIT


 * The info about Schirach receiving communion from Gerecke is already in the article, with a better source. Furtherfore, you keep saying he was "waiting to be hanged", which is not true. Overall, your edit is careless. cagliost (talk) 07:06, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So sorry to have accidentally edited your article, I didn't realize that you had filed for WP:OWNERSHIP rights. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT
An editor read a book about Baldur von Schirach, and has since added around 26K of material to this article, based on that one source, in doing so doubling the size of the article. These edits have skewed the article toward the views of the subject held by the author of that one book, which potentially violates WP:WEIGHT. I don;t believe that this is acceptable.

I'm not sure what the solution to the problem created by this editor is. One thing would be for other editors familiar with the subject to double check the material that has been added against other sources. Another, more radical approach, would be to revert back to the version of the article before the addition of the new material, and require the editor involved to double check every fact and opinion they wish to add against other sources before they can be added, citing multiple sources - it is, after all, that editor's actions which have created the current problem, and they should bear the bulk of the burden to fix it.

I would like to hear the opinions of other editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * A neutral pointer to this discussion has been placed on the talk pages of the WikiProjects listed above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh for goodness sake. This is a Vital level 5 biography article. Until recently, it was remarkably short, considering its importance. (It also contained a bunch of unsourced statements, some false, for which I have added citations and corrected where necessary.) In order to improve the article, I am reading what I believe is the only book-length biography of Schirach. There are no other similar sources we could rely on in the way you suggest, as far as I am aware. The source in question is impeccable, the idea that it would bias the article is unlikely. Requiring an additional citation for every fact is unnecessary, and requiring an additional citation for the occasional opinion of Professor Rathkolb's that I have included (and clearly signposted) is not possible. Reverting the article to its previous state would not be an improvement, it would be a serious regress. Do you have any specific criticisms of the source? Of course any editor or reader is welcome to check the citations against the source and cross-check against other sources. cagliost (talk) 02:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There's no policy against extensive use of a source, as far as I'm aware. Bias can be subtle, of course, but that means that vague accusations of bias can be made against any article. To make a persuasive accusation of bias, specific criticisms would be needed. WP:WEIGHT is not about excessive reliance on one source, it's about giving excessive prominence to viewpoints. A criticism relying on WP:WEIGHT would have to be specific about which viewpoints are being given undue weight. As an extreme example, to the extent that Rathkolb voices anti-Nazi viewpoints, I hardly think we should seek out pro-Nazi viewpoints, that would be WP:FALSEBALANCE. cagliost (talk) 10:36, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Viktoria Benedikta
His sister Viktoria Benedikta died young, but it's not clear exactly when. Marjorie Mary Butler Harrison (1956) says born 1902, died 1902. Miller & Schulz (2021) say "(born 16.06.1899 in Hannover, died 15.04.1901 in Berlin [diphtheria])". cagliost (talk) 11:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Rosalind's religion
Rathkolb chapter 10 says Rosalind von Schirach left the church: "Schirach, who unlike his father and sister had consciously remained a Protestant and had not left the Church". But in chapter 14 he says she "never left the Evangelical Church." cagliost (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Article issues
This "Start-class" article could see immediate improvements that could result in elevation to C-class and beyond. Other than normal editing improvement there are some obvious issues.
 * While not tagged there is a lot of unsourced content. Several paragraphs are left dangling with no sourcing. "Schirach was notoriously anxious about air raids." and the fact of being notorious means there should be sourcing.
 * The "External links" section is bloated. 12 links are not necessary and it becomes a dumping ground for links that might be integrated into the article or that are unnecessary.  --  Otr500 (talk) 09:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I have expanded the article significantly., you may wish to re-assess it. cagliost (talk) 12:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)