Talk:Baldwin Street/Archive 1

High Street, White Rock, British Columbia
I would not be suprised if this surpasses the steepness of Baldwin Street. It goes up the side of a steep ravine and must be at least 30% gradient. It is barely walkable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.81.47.153 (talk • contribs).


 * Looking at this map, High St does look fairly steep (although apparently not in the same league as Baldwin St), gaining about 100 ft of elevation in a horizontal distance of roughly 500 ft, for a gradient of 1:5 or 11°. (High St is the street running from the coast up towards the W in White Rock on this map; see also Google Maps.) No doubt it's steeper than this in parts. Does anyone have any better information? -- Avenue 09:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Alleged death of Ana Louise North
A google search for Ana Louise North Dunedin didn't bring up any decent results (e.g. respected news pages), only two somewhat obscure lists of alleged accidents. I believe this to be Urban Legend, unless someone comes up with better evidence. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to spread urban legends. If no evidence comes up, I will remove the passage from the article. -- Yogi de 00:57, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * While I agree with the sentiment mostly and I'm strongly supportive of the need for referencing, and this is a bit irrelevant now that a reference has been found, even without a reference, IMHO this should have remained even if one did not come up (but with a citation needed in the text). Given that this was a fairly recent event it is still fresh on the memories of many New Zealanders and given the size of New Zealand it was widely reported in reputable local media. I suspect asking on the Project NZ would have obtained widespread consensus that the event did happen and was reported in reputable local media. Although this does not remove the need for a citation, given we are talking about an factual event (rather then an disputed opinion or quote) IMHO it would have been enough to leave it in until a citation could be found. Nil Einne 03:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur, was widely reported and talked about her in NZ. Not folklore at all. Sad though that it isn't. Students where I lived in Auckland used to do the same with Whitaker Place (a very steep street, though not quite as steep as Baldwin) Mathmo Talk 08:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice about having a signature. Here is a link to a newspapers website: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,445106,00.html Mjm1964 02:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Canton Street, Pittsburgh, PA
According to this news story, Canton Street in the neighborhood of Beechview has a grade of 37%, even steeper than Baldwin Street.
 * It does seem like it might be steeper, but the article calls it a "byway" and a "pathway". Baldwin St is a very real "street". It has upward of 50 houses, with continuous housing through the steepest stretch. Also, as an effective dead-end, it's not just a 2 way street, but the street that its residents use daily. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Limegreen (talk • contribs).
 * The Post-Gazette article also says that just two families live on the steep portion, which bolsters Limegreen's argument. But perhaps it's worth mentioning in our article, with some discussion of what is meant by a "street". Regarding the name, the article calls it Canton Street in one place, but Canton Avenue in another. Google Maps thinks it's Canton Avenue.. -- Avenue 03:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Canton Avenue. The photo caption is wrong. I think they were calling it a 'byway' just as artistic license. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.1.1.33 (talk • contribs).


 * It isn't entirely clear that folks drive on the steep part of the street, even in the summer:
 * The bottom half is so steep, you're not supposed to drive down it any time of the year,...
 * But elsewhere it implies that residents do use it in the summer.
 * The two families who live on the sheer stretch know to park down on Coast when it snows and walk up the steps that are Canton's sidewalk.
 * Maybe we should have an article like List of steepest streets to evaluate these claims. -Will Beback 20:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm obivously chiming in on this a little late, but as a Pittsburgh resident and cyclist, I can assure you that Canton Avenue is most definitely a real street, and it's almost as long as Baldwin Street (this article says Baldwin is 200m). There are more than 2 houses on it, as well, although perhaps only 2 use it as their mailing address. Every year in Pittsburgh there is the "dirty dozen" bike race up Pittsburgh's 13 (a baker's dozen) steepest hills, including Canton. So, while no action seems to have been taken after this discussion, looking at the history of the article, I'm going to add a note about Canton Ave wit a link to the PG article.  cat Parade  07:49, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Date formatting
MadMaxDog: Look, I tried to be helpful here. I added the reference to Charles Kettle, after noting the connection to Baldwin Street in his article (which I also edited). While at it, I noted that this article is not formatted according to wikipedia guidelines when it comes to dates, so I took care of that while at it. Now you keep putting links to years, such as 2002, which is plain non-sensical, and adding the day of the week for newspaper articles, which is totally extraneous info, almost never seen on any other wiki articles. OK, whatever, dude. Turgidson 13:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Did I step on your toes or what is the problem? I certainly did not delete your Charles Kettle link, I in fact found it quite sensible. The 2002 link was returned when I reverted to keep the weekdays (I usually delete these links as well). So delete it if you like. As for the weekdays, it may not be of great use, but again, why remove info thats perfectly correct and bothers no one. It may not be high-value info, but it is info, not only data. MadMaxDog 13:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've removed the year/decade links. -- Avenue 14:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I won't revert it (getting tired of this little dispute as well) but can someone tell me the reasoning why a 1990s link is bad too? I always thought they made more sense that a simple year link, as they are actual articles, not just a long list. MadMaxDog 22:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Other Streets in British Columbia (Greater Vancouver Regional District)
Gatensbury St and Thermal Drive in Port Moody, BC also have gradients that seem to be steeper than this, though not for the entire length of each street. Also, a portion of Queens Ave in New Westminster, BC would appear to be nearly 40% gradient (though, once again, not for the entire length of the road). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.121.68.93 (talk • contribs).


 * Do you have any sources? A quick google doesn't seem to reveal much information on these streets? --Limegreen 22:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * To be fair, Baldwin Street isn't the same steepness over most of it either. The steepest part may be around 30% of the total length? MadMaxDog 08:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While overall the street is pretty steep, I believe that the quote gradient is for an even shorter distance. I have some idea of this, having once driven a car with a trailer up there (don't ask). Not only did I not make it up, but the car in gear, engine off, and handbrake on was not enough to hold us(!!) As for safely turning around with a trailer on that sort of grade on a narrow street. I digress slightly. I had a look on googlemaps at those streets, and they seem a bit 'major' to be as absurdly steep as Baldwin. I could be wrong, but the aerial perspective doesn't make them look dysfunctionally steep. --Limegreen 10:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[Anon comment]
There's a steeper street than this in bolton Point. Insignificant article. 203.49.205.213 14:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, can't be all that impressive, your street, if such a drive-by snubbing is all it makes you do. References buddy. Without it, you are just a nobody spouting nothings. And this article would not be insignificant if there were 50 Streets in the world steeper than this one. MadMaxDog 07:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

maybe not the steepest one, but for sure a longer one: http://www.salite.ch/scanuppia.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.162.231.164 (talk) 23:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Photos

 * How about we use a different photo? I think it better depicts the steepness of the street. I might be biased though, because I took that photo myself. Or should we maybe include both photos? Please do give your comments. If no one comments in two weeks, I will do the replacement (or addition). --Yogi de 19:19, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that the two photos are basically the same, just different angles of holding the camera. The current photo, however doesn't have a hedge blocking the view of the house.


 * Whoops, mjm1964 (first time edited a talk page).


 * I changed the indentation of your comment. Use four tildes (~) to sign your article with your name and a timestamp. Regarding the photo: I think the hedge helps making the photo look more extreme, and determining where "up" is. Still, I agree the difference is not that big. --Yogi de 22:23, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * While it is an interesting photo, it's kind of confusing to tell how steep the street is. The one on the current page is much less confusing, and you can see straight away the street is very steep. R AINER talk 10:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * With regards to the top photo, "A house on Baldwin Street", I note that it's a photo of a house near the bottom of the street, where the road is less steep. There is a sudden increase in steepness maybe 50 or 100 metres past the house in the photo.  Are there any decent photos of the houses further up the street? TeWaitere (talk) 01:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Manizales Colombia
There are much stepper streets in Manizales, Caldas, Colombia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.24.53.61 (talk • contribs).


 * Can you provide some details? -- Avenue 23:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, there are way too much stepper streets in Manizales. This street is flat compared to someones in Manizales, if someone would give me some details about taking the measure, i'd take the photographs and the measures of about 3 streets . Thanks
 * To take an official measure, you'd need a surveyor. However, you could make yourself a primitive astrolabe, which would give you a start. Effectively, you need to take square piece of cardboard and attach a plumb-bob to it (I've used a washer on a piece of string. Then you add angles to it. Eventually, you'd place it on the surface of the street and measure the angle. It's no where near an official measure, but it would be a good start.--Limegreen 21:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And original research in the truest sense of the word ;-) Better write some referenced articles about those streets if you can. MadMaxDog 07:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, MadMaxDog is right. While taking measurements would be interesting, the results would be unusable on Wikipedia. See WP:NOR. (PS: The device you want is called an "inclinometer". Fancy compasses have htem built in.) ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I should gently clarify that I was suggesting Original Research not for inclusion here, but because I think that people often think, oh 30 degrees is not very steep (when in fact, if you're standing on it, it seems rather steeper). It would be curious to know if there actually are steeper streets than Baldwin St, but frankly, you'd think they'd measure them. Plus, having driven up Baldwin, I'm not sure that a steeper street would be very functional as one.--Limegreen 01:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I used to live near one of the top ten steepest streets. More than once I saw debris at the bottom of the hill that had apparently fallen out of trucks, etc. That particular street went up to the crest of a narrow ridge so that you had to enter an intersection that couldn't be seen because of the hood of your vehicle. And then down the other side, almost as steep. I think whoever had drawn the platt map of the area hadn't bothered to check the topography - several streets are on the map that were too steep to pave, much less drive on, and have been turned into terraced gardens by the neighborhood. So yes, a 35% grade is very steep. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 03:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I once measured (during my work) a street here in NZ that was so steep, the spirit level slid down the hill when we let it go ;-) No, they are not too practical. Especially in Dunedin, where it does snow sometimes! MadMaxDog 04:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Limegreen about 30% appearing a lot steeper than it sounds. Last summer I was hiking and descended a 1.5km long scree slide that appeared to be almost vertical from the top.  Afterwards I checked the map and the 1:1.5 gradient made it only about 34%.  I've heard people claiming 20% gradients as almost vertical, when viewed from above.  So I would be skeptical of any subjective claims of steepness that have not been supported by measurement.TeWaitere (talk) 01:32, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Street planning
It is alleged that the steepness of the street was due to its being planned in London. Actually the gradient is due to the steepness of the hill!

But seriously, is there any evidence that town planners were operating from London? And surely Dunedin's streets are far less oblivious to geography than the article suggests. My understanding is that the city streets where planned by local surveyers who conducted meticulous surveys first.124.197.15.138 (talk) 04:55, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that the streets and original sections of the Town of Dunedin were at once designed, laid out and surveyed on the ground some time in 1846-1847 by surveyors acting under general instructions from Edinburgh (not London) and taking local land conditions into account, but don't have the reference to hand at the moment (I think it is in McClintock's 1948 centenary history). This would not have affected Baldwin Street in any case, as it is situated not in the Town of Dunedin but in the North East Valley Survey District. The original survey was into sections averaging about ten acres (4.0469 ha), all with frontage onto North Road (at least as far as Normanby). The original section which contains the developments on both sides of Baldwin Street, and the north-east side of Dalmeny Street, would have been Section 24, which, along with the adjoining (to the south-west) Section 22, is named "Sunnydale" on New Zealand Lands and Survey cadastral record map OT.133 (1947 printing of a lithograph dated April 1896). Section 24 was later subdivided by Deposited Plan 171, Otago Land Registry, into streets and over a hundred small sections, most being 0.0253 ha (one sixteenth of an acre), most of which still remain unsubdivided as per Terraview Fish Eye (cadastral data as at 2005). Without knowing more about the circumstances of this subdivision (which, going by the plan number, would have been a very old subdivision, possibly 1880 or thereabouts?) my best guess is that the steepness of the street is most due to the original section owner's desire to carve it into as many small sections as possible with as little roading (and thus, land which couldn't be sold but instead went to either a Road Board or a Borough Council as public road) as possible. But until anyone writes the definitive history of Baldwin Street, any such guesswork would be, at best, original research, and at worst pure conjecture. Daveosaurus (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My memory of what happened is pretty much in agreement with Daveosaurus's. User:Peter Entwisle would know (he's our resident Dunedin historian and has written books on the subject) but he's only sporadically on WP. Grutness...wha?  09:11, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Found a citation of sorts. “ Kettle, it is clear, had some understanding of the difficulties confronting him when he wrote: “The survey of a town is a somewhat tedious and lengthened process when due attention is paid to the features of the land in running the lines of streets so as to obtain accessible gradients and ensure necessary drainage.” Unfortunately neither the youthful Kettle nor his assistants possessed the knowledge or the training for such highly skilled work which was not made any easier by the topographical complexity of the site. Consequently, Kettle’s plan of the new town, which was intended to reproduce, as far as was practicable, the special features of the Scottish capital, demonstrated most convincingly the great gulf that lies between theoretical planning and its practical application.” – A.H. McLintock, “The History of Otago: The Origins and Growth of a Wakefield Class Settlement”. Whitcombe and Tombs Ltd., for Otago Centennial Historical Publications, Dunedin, 1949, p. 146. I notice that in Kettle's article on Wikipedia it also claims him as the surveyor of Baldwin Street, but find that doubtful unless he owned and/or subdivided Section 24 prior to his death in 1862. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Metre vs Meter
Which one should it be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.139.71 (talk) 05:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Metre' is preferable, because the article is written in New Zealand English. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Steepest?
I think I've seen much steeper streets in my life, in cities built around mountains or hills. Of course, most of the streets which are really steep are very short, so probably are less impressive than this one.. Perhaps it's a useless comment, but I don't think I'm the only person who doubts this claim. When a street is too steep to walk easily on, it usually just has a stairway in place of a normal sidewalk.. I'd like to have more meaningful claims about this, but I don't think it's easy to go around measuring the angle of random streets (without appropiate equipment or training). user:guruclef


 * This is a city built around mountains and hills. The steepest section of this street is also quite short. The pictures make it look a lot less steep than it seems when you're on it. I'm not quite sure I get your point about the stairway, but Baldwin is just one of many streets in Dunedin with stairs for a footpath(sidewalk). --Limegreen 21:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Two points- 1) yes, the photos don't really do it justice - it always seems a lot steeper when you're actually on it; 2) this street's claim is backed up by the Guinness Book of Records - as such it is notable, at least until such time as another street's claims are accepted. Grutness...wha?  01:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The top photo in the article is from the lower section of Baldwin Street which is less steep than the upper section. There is a sudden change in gradient maybe 50 or 100 metres above the house in the photo.  Unfortunately there are a lot of hedges and fences in the upper section of the street so that house on the shallower slope at the bottom is the most picturesque.TeWaitere (talk) 01:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems that someone has arbitrarily decided to exclude shorter streets from consideration. Is that appropriate?203.184.41.226 (talk) 06:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

"Steepest in the World"
No such thing as the steepest street in the world. (People want to know what it is, so Guinness tells them-- their business is to somehow give an answer, so they do.)

What does exist somewhere in the world is the steepest meter of paved street, and the steepest two meters, and the steepest ten meters and so on. The "steepest ten meters" is the ten-meter length that gains the greatest altitude. To measure that you need a transit or level-- not a carpenter's level, but one that has a 20-30x telescope and sits on a tripod, and has a crosshair that shows you a level line of sight (not more than 0.05% slope, let's say).

Someone apparently gave Baldwin St a quick measure and found a gain of 47.2 meters in 161.2 meters of... horizontal distance we assume, not distance along the slope. Less than 30% average, so we need lots more info that no one seems to have. If you go there, finding the steep part looks easy-- it's obvious to the unaided eye. But without going there and measuring it we don't know much of anything.

Don't sneer at Dunedin, tho-- roughly everyone else in the world knows far less than that about their favorite hills. People like to think Canton Ave in Pittsburgh was "officially" measured at 37%, but no one seems to know what the actual measurement was-- how many meters of altitude gain in how many horizontal meters. The whole hill is maybe 65 meters long, so a careful measurement wouldn't take more than an hour or two--- but looks like no one will ever do it. Likewise with the 32-33% hills in Los Angeles-- how long is the alleged grade? No one knows. So for all we know that Baldwin St climb of 47 meters in 161 meters is the steepest 161 meters in the world-- no one has shown evidence to beat it, tho maybe the LA hills can.

(Then there's Waipio Valley Road, which has to be at the top of some category or other.) Tim Zukas (talk) 01:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Bradford St in San Francisco isn't the steepest street in the world-- it averages maybe 25% for 100 meters or so. But at 37.73733N 122.40972W it gains 3.50 meters of elevation in 9.49 meters measured along the pavement, which makes the grade 39.6%. Far as anyone knows (which isn't far) this is the steepest eight meters in the world.

So where's the steepest 50 or 100 meters? That's a more interesting question, but no one seems to have data. Five San Francisco streets average 30 to 31% for 40 meters or more (and Broderick St deserves a mention at 34.6% for 85+ meters-- no barrier to driving your car up it, but it is a sidewalk and people will frown). Can Baldwin St or Canton Ave or Los Angeles beat those? Maybe so, if only someone would measure them. Tim Zukas (talk) 01:36, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Is the steepness for the whole length of the street?
We have streets that are at least as steep. But shorter and only parts are steep. The tops and/or bottoms tend to be less steep. Taking a peak at Google Street view, this is obviously not the case.--Dqeswn (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

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