Talk:Balli Kombëtar

Comments
Today Balli Kombëtar (National Front) is a nationalist political party in Albania, so the suggested merging should proceed. Bardhylius (talk) 11:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually the articles must not merge. The Balist movement was a collaborationist reactionary organization which was working for the Axis cause. While the contemporary Balli Kombëtar in Albania is a right-orientated democratic party. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 10:11, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The articles should be merged. There is no evidence to support the fact that Balli Kombetar was part of the Axis cause. The political movement in Albania is comprised of individuals who have strong ties to those that fought in the war DjBeX (talk) 18:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * oppose the current Balli Kombetar has a different role in Albania than World War II. Both articles need to be expanded.  The Balli Kombetar participated in administering (police, taxes, schools) areas which were outside Albania proper (Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia and Chameria) with the purpose of establishing a Greater Albania.  Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany assisted and indeed even facilitated the territorial changes to make this goal feasible; therefore, they were in collaboration. Menrunningpast (talk) 04:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * oppose per above. Constantine  ✍  17:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

NPOV Problem
This article is in desperate need of some neutrality. "The Communists did not care for their brothers and sisters in Kosovo"? "Yugoslavian masters"? "Balli Kombëtar heroes"? This sounds like Albanian fascist drivel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.163.179.89 (talk • contribs)
 * Addressed some of the issues. Cheers, —  Kedadi  talk  20:28, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Request
I changed the page and added alot of stuff and its been properly referenced. Please don't change it back to how it was before since it looked really bad. User:JOMN9878 (talk) 11:00, 3 December 2010    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.21.145(talk)
 * Dear JOMN9878, I'm just passing a quick administrative comment on the reasons I think your changes are being reverted. Firstly, let me mention that your edits are clearly not vandalistic. However, they are either badly sourced or are plainly non-neutral point of view. At this juncture I'd like you to necessarily read the following most imperative policies/guidelines of Wikipedia:
 * Verifiability
 * Reliable sources
 * Self published source
 * Neutral point of view
 * Please do note that the following sources you have attempted to include do not qualify at all on our reliable sources benchmarks. For example;
 * http://www.prodromidis.com/ is a family website
 * http://www.lajmishqip.com/?p=568 Seems to be a blog (I might be wrong) of a professor
 * http://www.albanianhistory.net/ is a self published website of a gentleman named Robert Elsie (who, though, does seem to be a specialist; yet, this is a self published website, and unfortunately, self published websites are the last on the reliable list when it comes to controversial statements of third parties)
 * http://rosemarieberger.com/about/ Again, this seems to be a personally maintained website.
 * But creditably, you have added the following three sources which seem reliable to me
 * Paulin Kola, The Myth of Greater Albania; (New York: New York University Press, 2003)., 29-31.
 * http://www.rferl.org/content/Albanians_Who_Saved_Jews_During_WWII_Honored_In_Pristina/2186302.html
 * http://www.haaretz.com/news/albania-honors-resistance-efforts-that-helped-save-jews-from-holocaust-1.238220

Therefore, although I protected this page, I will undo the same in some time and would also see how the changes you made with respect to the three reliable sources can be re-included in the article. Kindly note that from now on, it is highly advisable that whenever you wish to include a controversial statement that can be challenged, you should consider discussing the changes first on the talk page along with detailed references that provide you confidence that the change is appropriate. In case you face any issues, feel free to contact me on   Wifione    .......  Leave a message  20:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The content with references to the last two links is original research. Also, the sources do not mention the Balli Kombëtar. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 20:22, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dear Producer, if you are alluding to WP:Original research, that's incorrect. However, you are right as you mention that the last two links do not seem to contain information directly relevant to the Balli Kombëtar. Therefore, from now on, it'll be wonderful if you take the initiative to provide new editors/ips with links to the relevant policies or guidelines that you are invoking. This will allow them to read the same too. Look at the effort I undertook to point out the exact links being added and the mistakes in them. You should have done that much before I did. Therefore, at this juncture, and most importantly, I wish you to go through the Paulin Kola source and find out whether that edit can be re-included. I still will not do the same myself as I'll isolate myself to an administrative role on this article and would, in good faith in you, expect a full hearted attempt from you in analysing the source I mention. Leave a good, exhaustive note for the other editors to appreciate your point of view. Do please contact me for any support. Kind regards.  Wifione    .......  Leave a message  20:59, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * He's pushing the belief that "the old Kanun, a set of traditional Albanian laws that the Balli Kombëtar strongly believed" where as the sources say no such thing, in other words its unpublished speculation. In the end it's attempting to shine a nationalist force that collaborated in a better light.


 * I fail to find JOMN9878 mentioning Kola's book in his version but I do see content referencing The Oxford companion to World War II which if verified should be used. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 21:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Although the logo you added resembles the one of the WWII BK, it's not its logo but the one of the modern political party.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Legacy Section
The following section should be removed since it's invalid and doesn't contribute to the article in any way. Listed below is what I think should be removed. Adamdaley (talk) 05:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ''left to right: Hafez Yusuf Azemi, Prof Abas Ermenji, Richard J. Daley and Prof Luan Gashi ]]

''
 * Most of the leaders were either hoaxes or subjects that never were related with the movements.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

POV
Numbering at most 2,000 men, these anti-communists held off a partisan force of about 30,000 troops for two months

If nazis had such collaborator why they lost the war? Istoria1944 (talk) 08:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

JUST PROPAGANDA ARTICLE
The article is written from the Point of View of Albanian nationalism, and says all the lies of nationalists on the Balkans, as Greeks, Serbs, Macedonians do. That the communists drunk blood, and the goods but few Nationalists(just 2000 that could handle 30000 !!!!!!!!!!), cooperate just a... little with the Axis for a while.

Bali Kombetar was a nazi collaborator. The nationalists in all the Balkans says exactly the same things, that they fought for a bigger state for a Great Greece/ Albania, Bulgaria because in the past they lost a part of their province and blah blah. Istoria1944 (talk) 08:29, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

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Balli KOmbetar was not a nazi sympathiser
That is just communist propaganda surviving the Hoxha era. The Communists sold out Albania, the Balli Kombetar was in fact anti invader be they nazis or otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.219.163 (talk) 11:54, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

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EDES' branches
The branches of EDES that fought against the Balli Kombetar were several, the Northern Epirus Liberation Front and some less organized bands that were heavily involved in criminal activities. If the NELF is to be added, the other branches (the less organized bands) should be added as well. Should they be added in the infobox or somewhere in the article? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:06, 11 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Pettifer, Winnifrith are very clear about this Northern Epirote which operated as a "separate" organization. There is nowhere stated in the available bibliography that it was a branch of another organization (on the contrary it was a separate organization a state). Off course cooperation existed as in the case of the National Liberation Movement with other communist bands.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It would be also kind of you if you avoid aggressive edit summaries and accept the fact that the source I've provided mentions that MAVI was a "separate" resistance group.Alexikoua (talk)
 * Nah, one who blindly reverts and warns newbies while himself is edit warring is a warrior. Your source presents one POV, the other POV is that it and other bands of an ambigious nature in the southern corner of Albania operated on behalf of EDES. The bands were not fully trained for war, and were mostly engaged in propagandistic activities. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * (ignore NPA) The specific source meets RS criteria. Off course there is no POV about it.Alexikoua (talk) 15:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Merge the Articles and remove the Hoxha era propaganda
There is no point keeping the articles independent. The National Front Party was founded by an Ballist so that party is practically modern day Balli Kombëtar. Also calling them collaborationist and Fascist is pointless since they fought the Italians and only allied with the Germans after the Communists sold them out by denouncing the conference of Mukje. Balli was not fascist in Nature since being Fascist and Collaborating with the Germans is two things. The Soviet union fought in the side of the Americans but they were not capitalist nor the USA Communist. 178.147.198.9 (talk) 13:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2022
Hello my granddad was a komandant that was bali kombetar i have a photo of him with hes army closes and its a very good picture and high devenition. Are you intressed to have the picture and put it on your text AlbanCeraja (talk) 16:16, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: If it meets WP:image use policy, upload it and link to it here, and reopen the request then Cannolis (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Sources used on the Antisemitism designation
The following three sources were used to support the claim that Balli Kombëtar was antisemitic.

1. http://dengalnaserben.weebly.com/history-1900-to-1949/1944-kosovo-ciami6-giving-birth-to-klauck

2. http://bustikova.faculty.asu.edu/lbs/papers/lb18.pdf

3. https://forward.com/news/500717/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-albania/

The first source was extracted from a blogpost showing an article written by Carl K. Savich (which has a dead link to the original source at it’s end). He makes unsourced claims about the US government supporting “Greater Albania” and that “Albanians played a MAJOR role in the Holocaust”. This source is very clearly WP:BIASED. It uses “America's recruitment of nazis and its effects on the Cold War” p.123 by Christopher Simpson as a source. Unfortunately, the statement that “The small mountain territory had relatively few Jews, so rela­tively few were captured and killed, but not for lack of trying by the Balli Kombetar organization, and the Albanian SS” is very strongly contradicted on the Holocaust in Albania article: [33] [34] [35] [36]. On the article we see that antisemitism is more applicable to the SS Skanderbeg alone than Balli Kombëtar.

The second source talks about right wing organizations in Europe today, this has nothing to do with Balli Kombëtar and also never mentions it being anti semitic, so why is it used here?

The third source attributes antisemitism to the SS Skanderbeg and not Balli Kombëtar. This source also conflicts the first source’s claim that Albanians played a major role in the holocaust.

The source states that “ At least one Jewish survivor stated the Mitrovica government refused to hand over lists of Jews in Albania proper to the Nazis”, so it actually further cements the point that the Balli Kombëtar was not anti semitic.

We have more sources talking about how Balli Kombëtar politicians saved Jews than the contrary. So even if some members of the Balli Kombëtar were anti semitic, we can clearly see that it was not a core ideology of the organization.

Antisemitism is an evil ideology, so it’s a big claim to make, and if we cannot find reliable scholarly evidence for this claim, we shouldn’t include it in the info-box.

Agrotqr (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Entirely support what you've written above. Savich isn't reliable in any case. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Not even that, Including the antiserbian sentiment and the anti greek sentiment both have no proper sources and the ones for the serb sources are literally either written by serbs or a pro serbian like diana Johnstone who claims in her book that there was no genocide on the bosniaks. For the greek no one even added sources. the sources shouldnt be by authors who literally have a bias including Diana Johnstone but it should be authors have credibility and not some one is been either a person known for radical views. Gjondeda (talk) 21:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Dorril says "the small mountain territory had few Jews, so relatively few were captured and killed, though Christopher Simpson adds "not for lack of trying by the Balli Kombetar organisation, and the Albanian SS", which was implicated in a "series of anti-semitic purges that rounded upn about 800 people, the majority of whom were deported and murdered". See p. 358 here. Dorril is referencing this passage in Simpson's book. I haven't yet had a chance to check Bernd Jürgen Fischer, but will in the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Well as I said at the start, this claim strongly contradicts the information from the Holocaust in Albania article. We can’t have conflicting information in two separate Wikipedia articles that speak about the same topic. The sources from the other article aren’t talking about insignificant acts of kindness by random members of the organization towards Jews, they are talking about it’s leaders who, despite collaborating with the German Empire, still decided to save the Jews in Albania. So either we remove the Antisemitism designation here or we find sufficient evidence that Antisemitism was in fact a core ideology of the Balli Kombëtar and completely revise the other article to show how there actually was no effort to save Jews by the Albanian leaders. Agrotqr (talk) 09:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC)