Talk:Bally Technologies/Archives/2016

Video Game Company
Technically, Bally should be considered part of the list of United States video game companies since they did not only own Midway, but the Bally/Midway label became synonymous with so many extremely popular arcade games. Also, one of the major products of the current company is in fact a video slot game. If the argument is that there is some fundamental difference between video slot games and video arcade games, I would counter that, assuming the hardware is generic (which is perfectly reasonable) then the difference is merely the software running on which machine. If the difference is that slot machines of any kind are fundamentally meant to take money, I counter that the people who design video arcade games aren't exactly doing it for charity. A quote from Christian Marfels' Bally: The World's Game Maker: "The game was PacMan, made by Namco, and Bally took again a license. Demand was so strong that the new Bensenville plant worked three shifts to keep up with orders. About 8,000 video games were shipped per month, and 95,000 games left the plant in 1980-81. Could the sales of record of PacMan be broken? Yes, it was in 1982 with the game Ms. PacMan, of which 110,000 games were sold. Bill O'Donnell's vision to link up with the Japancese video-game makers proved to be a goldmine for Bally. The net proceeds of the rich harvest were filling Bally's coffers: revenues from the sales of video and pinball games jumped by 90% froom $229 million in 1980 to $435 million in 1982." I'd like to hear a valid argument that Bally does not belong in the Category above before anyone removes that listing. --Daydreamer302000 13:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Response
The fact that Bally wholly owned Midway does not justify its inclusion as a video game company. It's like saying that Time Warner is a video game company just because it once owned Atari Games.

When reading Marfels's quote, one has to question if Bally really negociated itself the Japanese licenses, or if it did it through Midway. Regardless what the answer is, it wasn't the Bally name that was shown on the titlescreen of those non-pinball arcade games nor on the flyers, meaning it did not handled the publishement of these games.

As far as the Bally-Midway label is concerned, this is only Midway which renamed itself after taking over Bally's pinball operations. Bally continued to operate normally under the "Bally" name.

To conclude, maybe video slot games are video games. But the bottomline is that 99% of readers who are checking  United States video game companies the category do not expect to see a casino or gambling related company in it. So why adding one in the list just because of one's personal opinion?

Farine, July 6th 2007

Rebuttal
I will try to counter your points as you made them in your response.

Time Warner might be considered a video game company if they, as the parent company, had become directly involved in the production of the respective games and their name was a part of the published title and identity of the games created in that period of ownership. I admit, that this point can be debatable in cases where the association between the companies is not clear to the public. In your example, it's clear. Time Warner should definitely not be included in this category because the fact they once owned Atari, while notable, is trivial when considering the specific designation of Video Game Companies. For Bally, it is also clear. They were active, aggressive participants in the development, production, and distribution of some of the most popular video games in U.S. (and world) history. Further, the article states quite clearly what happened to this division of Bally.

Bally negotiated the licenses with the Japanese companies, and was in charge of production and distribution (from Bensenville, Indiana). This is clearly stated in the Marfel's book. I can, cite that here if you like. The Bally/Midway label became synonamous with many of these games of that period. You could argue that since they no longer produce these games, they should not be listed. However the current list of Video Game Companies contains atleast 5 companies that no longer exist or produce video games of any kind: Gathering of Developers, The Fizz Factor, Inguana Entertainment, Sigil Games, and Treco. I found those just on a cursory inspection of the list. I'm sure if I really looked, I could find many more such companies, and more reasons they no longer produce games. Division spin-offs and mergers do appear to be a common theme. Certainly Bally has made far more of a name for itself in this category than any of these companies.

Bally took over Midway, and Midway became the most important part of Bally for a period of time. That fact is based on a documented published source. I don't think you will ever be able to trivialize the importance of Bally/Midway. Atleast not without reliable sources.

With your statement: "'But the bottomline is that 99% of readers who are checking United States video game companies the category do not expect to see a casino or gambling related company in it.'" It's clear that you have a bias against the idea of a gambling related company being somehow associated with the hallowed arcade industry. But the fact is that it has happened, and the result is one of the most influential parts or arcade game history.

Right now, Bally is celebrating its 75th anniversary. ALL of of its 75 years. The phrase you put in (which I've removed) suggests that the company is merely 39 years. A preposterous suggestion to say the least. If you think the company is wrong in believing this, you're welcome to visit the official website and send an email explaining to them how wrong they are.

If you remove remove the designation again, or put in information that contradictory to the company's true history again, I will go ahead and move this to mediation. As I can provide references citing published sources, and verifiable highly credible online sources, and since I myself am a credible source, particularly with regards to the company Bally Technologies, I'm pretty sure I know how that will go. But I'm perfectly willing to do what's necessary and settle this so the article will be accurate and reflective of the quality expected by any encyclopedia.

I would ask this: Please don't change the article again unless you can support your changes with credible references (and cite them), atleast as credible as the sources I've cited, which would have to be the case, since your information directly contradicts the article content. The information in the article at the moment is neutral, encyclopedic content that is truthful to best of anybody's knowledge and can be supported with credible sources. I'd rather our discussion not change that (as it certainly shouldn't). Just reply here, and if we can't agree on this and we can go through the proper Wikipedia process to sort everything out. --Daydreamer302000 19:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Response
Bally Technologies is not 75 years old. Take a look yourself at http://ballytech.com/systems/product2.cfm?id=16.

The words of Richard Haddrill, CEO at Bally Technologies, specifies that it is the name which is 75 years old.

“The signature Bally script logo is known worldwide and our forthcoming 75th anniversary in 2007 is a reminder to us and our stakeholders of the long-standing value of the Bally name in the gaming industry. Given our enhanced commitment to research and development, the Bally Technologies, Inc. name also more accurately reflects our corporate identity as a true technology provider.” Retrieved from http://ballytech.com/systems/product2.cfm?id=16

Furthermore, on this same webpage, is it is written that it is Alliance Ganing Corp which changed it's name to Bally Technologies.

"With a nod to the company’s long and illustrious legacy of innovation, the shareholders of Alliance Gaming Corp., the parent company of Bally Gaming, Inc., voted on March 6, 2006 to formally change the name of the corporate entity to Bally Technologies, Inc., discontinue the use of Bally Gaming and Systems as an Alliance subsidiary and present a singular name and a united message."

As you can see Bally Technologies is not Bally Manufacturing and does not consider itself as such. The only problem is that you think you own this article and refuse to let others contribute. So if you want to take it to mediation, go ahead. You won't win this one because your editings are POVs, not facts.

And as far as your saying about this article being about Bally Technologies (not the Bally name), let me remind you that the name of this article is "Bally", not "Bally Technologies". I, for one, think they should be more then one Bally article on Wikipedia. But for the time being, this article is simply called Bally. So it should deal with any company that beared the Bally name whether it be Bally Technologies, Bally Manufacturing, Bally Wulff or which ever company that once carried this brand.

Farine, July 15th 2007

Call for Mediation
All of the employees of Bally Technologies, certainly Dick Haddrill, and myself, consider the company to be 75 years old. You can email any person in the company including the CEO and ask.

In order to avoid this article disintegrating even further, I will move this to mediation sometime this weekend. I would ask that no one edit the article for content (minor grammer, spelling shouldn't cause any problems... hopefully) until this is all settled. I just wanted to respond to a couple of points first, not related to the topics under debate.

1. Neither this article, nor any article outside a few precious specific ones, belong to me or even Wikipedia in a larger sense. These articles belong to the readers who come here looking for valid, accurate, neutral (when applicable) information.

2. Point-of-view statements are in fact allowed on articles on Wikipedia. They simply must be neutral, supported with credible sources, and acknowledge in a respectful manner alternate points of views. There are many articles on Wikipedia that are contraversial and inflammatory, but are notable enough that they must be included for this encyclopedia to be comprehensive. This is the reason for the creation of NPOV. Just take a look at the stuff I had to neutralize when I started doing the major revisions of this article. Now THAT was point-of-view!

Back on topic, it's hard to imagine that a simple article on an existing company that really hasn't ever been involved in anything all that remarkably contraversial should involve any debate whatsoever. I suppose that's positive in a way. There are contributors that care. And that's the reason to move this mediation. We've got to find a middle ground so that people looking for accurate information on this company can find it here. The matters for debate can all be verified by credible sources of high repute. The issues, outlined in the mediation request, really can't be equivocal.

Further, the article itself should not be the sandbox for anybody's dispute to be hashed out. If it can not be resolved in the discussion, then we should go through the established Wikipedia procedures. I hope that everybody interested takes a look at the process and considers all of the information. It should be interesting and I'm rather happy to give something like this a go as it will be a new experience that should benefit this article, and likewise benefit everyone interested in learning more about the company. --Daydreamer302000 15:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

MedCabal
This process will begin here, as suggested in the Wikipedia:Mediation page. Hopefully this will be the only step we have to take. --Daydreamer302000 15:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Bally Marketing Response
I've taken the liberty of making a few edits and additions to this article. As marketing communications manager for Bally Technologies, I've been tasked with maintaining the accuracy of our corporate history. I hope the edits I've made are appropriate for this article. As to the official birth of Bally, our company considers itself to the legitimate descendant of the original Bally Manufacturing Company founded in 1932. However, it should be noted that when Bally Gaming International, Inc. (BGII) was spun off from the parent Bally Entertainment, Inc. in the mid-1990s and was purchased by Alliance Gaming Corp. which was founded in 1968 as Advanced Patent Technologies. Nevertheless, we contend that the Bally name and the Bally brand as a slot machine manufacturer continues directly from the company's founding in 1932. Geostamos 18:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm going to just 'neutralize' and rearrange things just a bit. I will still push for mediation however as I suspect most of these changes will be reverted anyway. Hopefully this doesn't have to go past our engineering and marketing departments, as well as Wikipedia mediation, but I'm not that confident. If we have to go farther though, we'll go there. Also there is still the point of contention of whether Bally belongs in the Video Game Companies category. --Daydreamer302000 19:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Response
It may not be your intention to lead people into believing that you own the article. But by keeping removing things you don't like to replace them with your personal views, that's the impression that you're giving. Your last edits prove this again. Geostamos had the information exactly as it supposed to be: Bally Technologies is a company founded in 1968, but at the same time is the legitimate descendant and continuation of the Bally Manufacturing Corporation. Had you retranscript what Geostamos exactly said, the debate would be over by now. But instead of doing this, you went on again with your story about Bally Technologies being 75 years old.

Anybody is entitled to his opinion and the right to consider Bally Technologies as a 75 years old company. However, when it comes to put the info in Wikipedia, we have go with what is formal, not opinions. And the formality is that 1968 is the founding year. Otherwise this link would have said that Bally Technologies was created in 1932 instead of 1968.

If it still existed today, Bally Entertainment would have had the right to claim that it is 75 years old since Bally Entertainment was in fact only Bally Manufacturing that changed its name. But in the case of Bally Technologies, that's something else. We're not dealing with a name change. We're dealing with a different company. That is not to say that the only thing Bally Technologies shares with Bally Manufacturing is the brand. Bally Technologies does have indeed a identity which is strongly similar to that of Bally Manufacturing that goes way beyond just the brand name. That is why I do agree that it is the continuation and descendant of the original company. However when it comes to formality, it is Alliance Gaming Corporation that changed it's name. And the public has the right to know this.

I have reverted again your edits and modified the article so that it reflects what Geostamos really said. That is: Bally Technologies is the descendant of the Bally Manufacturing Corporation, but a company founded in 1968. You said you wanted a middle ground. Well, there you have it. The way it should be.

Farine, July 24th 2007