Talk:Baltasar Gracián

Typo
Well, ingfenio is not a word in spanish, so I guess that was a typo and was meant to be ingenio. Drini 05:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

State of translation
Translation is pretty much complete, except:
 * pasan a la Corte: is this just "passed through the Royal Court", or something more specific?
 * Yes, they join the court (kings, counts and all that stuff) Drini 02:08, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Then it could probably use a little cleanup (both Schopenhauer references in one place, maybe also quote Jorge Luis Borges, another admirer. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:47, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * gilipollas: how can you translate gilipollas? If Gracián himself used the word, I'd be inclined to say "gilipollas (jerks)", but if he didn't we should find a less vulgar word. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:38, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * I hate to point out errors without proposing alternative solutions, but I think it is safe to say that "Criticón" does not mean "faultfinder" at all. That is to say, it does mean so in colloquial Spanish (denoting someone who is always picking faults), but in Gracián's book it refers to the fact that the narrative is structured in a series of crises: they are actually called "crisi(s)" instead of "chapters". I hesitate to say that the meaning would be something as straightforward as "a collection of crises", but it certainly would be closer than "faultfinder". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.116.148.198 (talk) 10:37, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Comments
"This article has been translated, and needs attention from someone approaching dual fluency" from the top message. Well, I'm fluent in both languages, need some advice? I was also wondering if Saragosa shouldn't be Zaragoza (that's the name of the Spain city, I think). Also, about the gilipollas word, can't it be omitted at all? after all, that remark isn't a very esential one. And perhaps we're trying too hard to get a literal translation when perhaps a little rephrasing can make things a lot easier 02:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Would Agudeza more aptly translated as sharp wit? The dictionary suggests "acuity" but it doesn't seem sufficient. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bergman524 (talk • contribs) 08:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Further comments from during the translation
(moved from Pages needing translation into English): I pulled in main text and works from the Spanish page. --Morning star, 19:32, 21 Mar, 2005 (UTC)
 * Just for clarification: Morning star copied this from the Spanish-language wikipedia & is working on it, but would welcome help. Let's leave this note here at least another 48 hours. If anyone wants to post at WP:TIE of even Wikipedia talk:Spanish Translation of the Week, feel free. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:38, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Worked on it some but got tired so will leave it for now. Mona-Lynn 10:03, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Only two remaining issues of translation, both flagged on its talk page. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:15, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fixed last two items, so I think we're done now, but I'll leave it to someone in charge to remove the Pages Needing Translation template. Maybe the stub template should be removed as well. That being said, I think this article needs a good edit and the plot of the book should be moved to a separate article. But that's another issue.Mona-Lynn 11:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the template. I think it's fine to leave the plot here until such time as we get enough additional material to really merit an article on the book distinct from the present article. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:04, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms
Does anyone have specific info on Ticknor's and/or other criticisms of Gracián? --Head of the Caligula Appreciation Society 07:29, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

The translation of Arte de ingenio that was previously listed in this entry doesn't actually exist. It's not available in the Library of Congress or any of the top twenty U.S. college collections. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.108.155.133 (talk • contribs) 29 July 2006.


 * I can't say you are wrong, but I'm surprised. Its mentioned at http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/gracian.htm. That's usually a well-researched site. - Jmabel | Talk 06:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Clearly should be merged into the generally better article at Baltasar Gracián.

Some of what is here ("He has been excessively praised by Schopenhauer…) is obviously very POV. It might be worth preserving specifically attributed to the 1911 EB, but in this case I don't think so: all it illustrates is the prejudices of the English-language world 100 years ago, not much about its subject. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:18, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Encyc. Brit. 1911 thinks that Gracian was "misled." Isn't that POV?Lestrade 00:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade
 * I don't have clear context on that but we can quote and cite EB ' s POV remarks; they just shouldn't end up in the article's narrative voice. - Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Clearly. But the article should probably be here and the redirect there. KSchutte 04:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * This has been done. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Zaragoza/Tarazona
In the first paragraph of the "biography" section Zaragoza was recently changed to Tarazona. No citation was given. I don't know the facts. Given that there is apparently disagreement, would someone please cite? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This has now been reverted, still without citation. The comment says, "Revert possible suspiscious changes by a known vandal". I don't see the basis for the "known vandal" charge. Exactly two edits have ever been made from that IP address; the other was vandalism, but with a sample so small we have no particular reason to believe it was the same editor. Citation would still be very much in order. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Gracián vs. Gracián y Morales
This author is almost universally referred to as Gracián, not Gracián y Morales, and the page title should reflect that, as it does on the Spanish Wikipedia's article: Baltasar Gracián. The situation is complicated because the page for Baltasar Gracián already exists and was made into a redirect for this one. ~ Kalki 14:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If there are no objections, sometime in the next day, I will manually copy the contents of this article and paste it to the "Baltasar Gracián" page, and make this article the redirect to that one. I might also copy the contents of this talk page and append it to the talk page there, and make this one into a redirect. Thus page histories will be preserved for both pages, some of which would be destroyed if a simple move was done. ~ Kalki 05:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This has now been done. The article has been renamed, and this talk page is now a product of the two talk pages, with the previously used titles now used as redirects. ~ Kalki 22:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

''I can't work out quite what you did Jan 7 at Baltasar Gracián. I suspect that it was a cut-and-paste move that separated the article from its history, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe you did some kind of merge? Your edit summary doesn't make it clear. Anyway, if my understanding is correct: could you please see How to fix cut and paste moves? And, especially, in the future, if you want to move something that you cannot move yourself, could you please use Requested moves? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 04:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)''


 * I believe the combining action I took here a couple weeks ago was in response to the situation apparently being something of a "troublesome case" with both pages having divergent edits. It is confusing, but the title of the non-redirect page had become "Baltasar Gracián y Morales" rather than the preferred "Baltasar Gracián"


 * Here is the history of Baltasar Gracián y Morales (which I believed might have originally been named "Baltasar Gracián" but had been moved prior to page moves showing up in the edit histories) which had edits from 18 December 2004 - 23 December 2006 prior to my making it a redirect on 7 January 2007:


 * 16:59, 7 January 2007 Kalki (Talk | contribs) (REDIRECT Baltasar Gracián)
 * 04:37, 23 December 2006 STBotD (Talk | contribs) m (robot Removing: io:Baltasar Gracián)
 * 21:35, 20 December 2006 FlaBot (Talk | contribs) m (robot Adding: gl:Baltasar Gracián)
 * 20:44, 13 December 2006 85.55.161.4 (Talk) (→External links - Link FA|es)
 * 23:55, 5 December 2006 Slutbot (Talk | contribs) (→The Art of Worldly Wisdom)
 * 23:50, 5 December 2006 Slutbot (Talk | contribs)
 * 22:08, 2 December 2006 85.53.4.159 (Talk) (→Biography)
 * 15:15, 28 November 2006 68.55.189.140 (Talk)
 * 15:15, 28 November 2006 68.55.189.140 (Talk)
 * 22:57, 4 October 2006 Fernando S. Aldado (Talk | contribs) (+commons tag)
 * 17:36, 22 September 2006 Bolivian Unicyclist (Talk | contribs) m (dab)
 * 02:15, 15 September 2006 Kencf (Talk | contribs) (→The Art of Worldly Wisdom - Style.)
 * 20:55, 7 September 2006 Kencf (Talk | contribs) (→The Criticón - ac - →The Art of Worldly Wisdom)
 * 21:20, 4 August 2006 OrphanBot (Talk | contribs) (Removing image by request; see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Stamps wrongly claimed as Fair use: serious copyright problem)
 * 18:21, 29 July 2006 70.108.155.133 (Talk) (→Works)
 * 20:51, 18 July 2006 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) m (→Works - restore an English-language title, cannot imagine a reason to omit; it was anonymously removed without summary)
 * 20:18, 14 July 2006 71.252.12.252 (Talk) (→Works)
 * 04:39, 11 July 2006 70.108.195.128 (Talk) (→Works)
 * 00:18, 4 April 2006 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) m (→The Criticón - rv eccentric capitalization)
 * 17:44, 29 March 2006 Sethmahoney (Talk | contribs) (→The Criticón - copyedit)
 * 04:13, 23 March 2006 YurikBot (Talk | contribs) m (robot Adding: sv:Baltasar Gracián y Morales)
 * 02:21, 26 February 2006 212.112.43.190 (Talk) (++bs:)
 * 22:48, 20 February 2006 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Quote - rm near-random quote. But feel free to start a Wikiquote or Wikisource page.)
 * 01:00, 15 February 2006 69.89.103.39 (Talk) (→References - ==Quote== Passion colors all that it touches in its own hues.)
 * 15:19, 11 February 2006 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (correct an apparent mistranslation from Spanish)
 * 15:16, 11 February 2006 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Biography - link Tarazona, Aragon)
 * 21:16, 30 January 2006 209.90.162.10 (Talk) (io)
 * 20:30, 29 November 2005 68.39.174.238 (Talk) (Revert possible suspiscious changes by a known vandal)
 * 14:41, 27 October 2005 24.55.228.130 (Talk) (→Biography)
 * 22:58, 18 October 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→External links - recovered "dead" link from the Internet Archive)
 * 00:54, 18 October 2005 67.188.130.125 (Talk) (Removed dead link.)
 * 02:59, 8 October 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (Add 1911 citation explicitly in references)
 * 02:54, 8 October 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Critical Reception - restore, but be clear where this came from)
 * 02:27, 7 October 2005 WhatWouldEmperorNortonDo (Talk | contribs) (deleted pov opinion on Gracian)
 * 16:49, 16 September 2005 Cafe Nervosa (Talk | contribs) m (correctted link to Belmonte, Spain)
 * 16:30, 16 September 2005 Cafe Nervosa (Talk | contribs) (Added picture of stamp with portrait)
 * 22:38, 15 September 2005 64.166.224.222 (Talk) (→Works)
 * 22:34, 15 September 2005 64.166.224.222 (Talk) (→The Criticón)
 * 01:12, 15 September 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (rm generic Image:Example.jpg)
 * 09:58, 14 September 2005 Cesaracn (Talk | contribs)
 * 09:54, 14 September 2005 Cesaracn (Talk | contribs)
 * 09:26, 14 September 2005 200.157.150.4 (Talk)
 * 09:22, 14 September 2005 200.157.150.4 (Talk) (→Biography)
 * 09:00, 14 September 2005 200.157.150.4 (Talk)
 * 11:51, 9 August 2005 YurikBot (Talk | contribs) m (robot Modifying: he)
 * 14:00, 3 August 2005 Bobo192 (Talk | contribs) (Removed repeated word)
 * 12:08, 31 July 2005 Chobot (Talk | contribs) m (robot Adding: he)
 * 15:00, 26 July 2005 170.140.45.164 (Talk) (→External links)
 * 13:00, 14 July 2005 Chobot (Talk | contribs) m (robot Adding: pt)
 * 16:02, 10 July 2005 217.185.252.6 (Talk) (+de:)
 * 13:40, 6 July 2005 KSchutte (Talk | contribs) (→External links)
 * 05:21, 1 July 2005 82.123.192.32 (Talk) (interlanguage fr)
 * 20:44, 24 June 2005 PDH (Talk | contribs) (merge complete)
 * 20:43, 24 June 2005 PDH (Talk | contribs)
 * 22:49, 19 June 2005 KSchutte (Talk | contribs)
 * 16:35, 21 May 2005 Jfpierce (Talk | contribs) m (fixed ko: link)
 * 16:33, 21 May 2005 Jfpierce (Talk | contribs) m (+es +sk)
 * 07:35, 14 January 2005 218.39.226.173 (Talk)
 * 14:05, 18 December 2004 82.43.133.29 (Talk)


 * Here is the history of Baltasar Gracián (the most generally used name) which had edits from 21 March 2005 to 24 June 2005. On 7 January 2007 I moved back the contents of the page that had been merged into Baltasar Gracián y Morales (rather than the preferred name "Baltasar Gracián") by PDH on 24 June 2005.


 * 00:58, 23 January 2007 Physicq210 (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted edits by 128.143.230.22 (talk) to last version by Kalki)
 * 00:35, 23 January 2007 128.143.230.22 (Talk) (→External links)
 * 16:58, 7 January 2007 Kalki (Talk | contribs) (moving contents of Baltasar Gracián y Morales to preserve page histories of both)
 * 20:43, 24 June 2005 PDH (Talk | contribs)
 * 16:15, 22 June 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) ( ==> :  this is the better article and the better title)
 * 22:49, 19 June 2005 KSchutte (Talk | contribs)
 * 15:44, 26 April 2005 Dwbird2 (Talk | contribs) (Removed from "Needing translation" category, removed stub template)
 * 01:00, 8 April 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (rm  tag)
 * 06:28, 7 April 2005 Mona-Lynn (Talk | contribs) (I think it's done now)
 * 06:14, 7 April 2005 Mona-Lynn (Talk | contribs) (→The Criticón - gilipolla=dunce)
 * 21:10, 3 April 2005 Drini (Talk | contribs) (→Biography - Saragosa is a Texas town)
 * 21:06, 3 April 2005 Drini (Talk | contribs) (→Works - critick --> critic)
 * 21:04, 3 April 2005 Drini (Talk | contribs) (→Biography)
 * 21:02, 3 April 2005 Drini (Talk | contribs) (→The Criticón - minor changes on wording)
 * 16:43, 1 April 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→The Criticón - translating one more thing)
 * 16:38, 1 April 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (some further translation; only a few phrases remain to be done)
 * 06:00, 1 April 2005 Lectonar (Talk | contribs) m
 * 05:00, 1 April 2005 Mona-Lynn (Talk | contribs) (did some rewording and translation)
 * 04:53, 31 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (more translation)
 * 04:15, 31 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Biography - translated a bit more)
 * 22:26, 27 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Works - Almost certainly correction of a typo; see talk)
 * 13:22, 26 March 2005 Timo Laine (Talk | contribs) m (Fixed a link)
 * 13:56, 24 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (These are famous enough under their Spanish titles that the Spanish titles should be given)
 * 06:01, 24 March 2005 Evil saltine (Talk | contribs) m (→Biography)
 * 05:58, 24 March 2005 Evil saltine (Talk | contribs) (→Biography)
 * 14:08, 23 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Biography - did a bit of translation; one phrase in this paragraph I'm not sure how to translate)
 * 13:57, 23 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→References - No reason to link these titles; they don't merit articles of their own. I leave it to someone else's judgment on the authors.)
 * 13:55, 23 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Works - 2 questions on spelling in titles)
 * 13:53, 23 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (→Biography - Spelling fell between two stools)
 * 10:36, 23 March 2005 Morning star (Talk | contribs) (translated works, added link, early bio)
 * 01:31, 22 March 2005 Jmabel (Talk | contribs) (Added note on status of this, after interchange with the person who created it; also Category:Wikipedia articles that need translation)
 * 14:32, 21 March 2005 Morning star (Talk | contribs) (stub with Spanish text, references, links, languages, and category)


 * ~ Kalki 14:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Spelling?
In the Works section, is that supposed to be Lorenzo Gracin or Lorenzo Gracian?66.82.9.80 01:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)AubreyAubervilliers
 * Yeah, there seems to be some semantic issues Gautam Discuss 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Biography
There is something unclear in this section as to the vows. It starts by saying Gracian took his final vows in 1635, only then to add that he "assumed the vows of the Jesuits in 1633". This simply cannot be right.

In Jesuit formation, one first enters the Noviciate, which takes 2 years. The Noviciate ends with the taking of perpetual vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. Unlike other orders and institutes, these are not temporary, but perpetual as the name indicates.

Immediately after this follow the studies of philosophy (Philosophate), which normally take 3 years, depending on the course. If Gracian started the Philosophate in 1627, then that was of necessity also the year of his perpetual vows.

Jesuit formation is the longest among religious institutes. After the Philosophate there's what is usually a 2-year period called Regency (or Magisterium). This is essentially a period of teaching, normally in one of the Jesuit schools. As with any other stage of training, this too may be shortened, lengthened, or replaced by another period of study (for instance to finish studies, etc.)

After this follows the Theologate (a several year period of theology studies) at the end of which there's ordination, first as a deacon, and usually one year later, as a priest.

Finally, there's a long period (several years), filled with pastoral work, which concludes with what is called the Third Probation, which is almost a small-scale repetition of the Novitiate. At that point the monthly Spiritual Exercises are taken once more and so are the different stages of the Noviciate.

Only after this stage, and entirely at the discretion of superiors will there be eventually the Solemn Vows - also of poverty, chastity and obedience, but canonically more binding than those perpetual. In addition to those three traditional vows, ordained Jesuits (as was the case of Gracian) also take a special fourth vow of obedience to the Pope regarding missions. And as is the case of Solemn Vows in other religious orders, those can only be dissolved by Rome.

If Gracian "took vows" in 1635 as the entry says (after his studies and ordination to priesthood) these would have been of necessity his Solemn Vows, at which point he became a professed member of the Order, and that may need to be made clear (as solemn vows), as he had in fact already taken vows years ago (in 1627) upon finishing the Noviciate, which were the perpetual vows.

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