Talk:Baltimora/Archive 1

Untitled
This page is used at baltimora.ytmnd.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.200.116.105 (talk) 00:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * At least they did not vandalize it! --68.34.144.80 01:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"proceeding?"
What is meant here... success with their lead single, "Tarzan Boy", overshadowed their proceeding efforts --76.98.9.241 (talk) 03:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Gay, Drug User...
Was Baltimora a homosexual or drug user. Just how did he contact HIV?


 * Did you see his picture on the main page? I think it's safe to say he was playing for the pink team.-66.254.235.11 01:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You never can tell with musicians. :O

Amazing as it may seem, hetrosexual people can get aids too.

Yet Another Italian Phony
McShane was yet another guy who the Italian industry made into a character for their productions. Maurizio Bassi actually composed and sang "Tarzan Boy", and McShane lip-synched the lyrics. Italian record labels had many such "projects", including Den Harrow, who was also very popular. In Den's case, most of the vocals were produced by Tom Hooker, although other Italo Disco singers, such as Silver Pozzoli, also recorded songs as "Den Harrow".

Got any proof of this?--193.195.185.254 05:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course he has no proof, he's just a person that accepts everything he hears, calling artists fakers was popular in the 80's and early 90's, James McShane was a legit singer, oh, and I've discussed this with exactly 35 other indivduals and they all agreed that the voice that sang the song was British/Irish. Vandalists pieced together that the accent was European, and the writer was Italian, then they let their brains run wild, and out came this load of garbage. No disrespect to anyone, but if you're going to call someone a fake, prove it. - Victis_Omega

Can you prove he was a legit singer or are you just relying on the 35 random people you quizzed? The accent is obviously not irish or british, if you listen to songs like woody boogie and tarzan boy this becomes obvious. Before you go around saying he's legit lets see you prove it. -S

Fair enough, but I doubt more than 10 people could be fooled into thinking McShane actually sang if it's as obvious as you make it out to be. And let's try to follow our own advice before go preaching it to others, if he's not legit, let's see you prove it. Now I like the post below me, it has a sense of neutrality but gets the point across in a more interrogative manner, rather than trying to pose personal beliefs as facts. - Victis_Omega

All we need is one sample of proven McShane voice (interview?)and thats it...Anything else to do is simple voice analyze that is possible to do even with todays PC. if song vocals and his voice does not match...then...well. But it is possible that you dont even need computer but only ears, just all we need is actual McShane voice. One thing that do raise suspicions is that we don't know much about his past as singer (and all else). Where did he learn to sing (like pro not like a karaoke star)? Where did he sing before? With who? And so on...

This youtube clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7NqZGE1yEM) features McShane talking italian after performing the song. I believe he was singing on this track at least which the voice is also the same on most of the second album. It seems he speaks fluent Italian. It is said he moved to Italy shortly before Baltimora - no proof but it's certainly possible that he could pick up an Italian accent. The video proves he speaks Italian after all. He also wrote the lyrics to the track Survivor in Love which perhaps shows he was more than just somebody selling Baltimora. Accoring to the Baltimora forum which is linked on the article, some poster stated he had emailed Maurizio Bassi through myspace about the subject and never received a reply. Again, there is no way to tell. The whole idea has come up because some people were unsure of the whole accent in the vocals. There is a "live" version of Tarzan Boy on Top of the Pops which is certainly different to the original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P34_O-YUrVY

As linked in the article, this interview (http://www.euro-flash.net/deejays.php?djID=2) shows no real proof that Tom Hooker was ever in contact with Baltimora. Furthermore, he provides no proof to why he knows McShane didn't sing. Perhaps he overheard the band recording one day but again no proof that perhaps Bassi was recording a demo. Hooker writes "Baltimora was Maurizio Bassi singing and not the Scottish image who died of AIDS a few years later...." when infact McShane was Irish so immediately a mistake shown. Jimmy McShane is certainly a real mystery. I am due to receive both Baltimora studio albums soon so hopefully there will be credits. I expect credit will go to McShane and if so I believe it should be stated in the article. Ajsmith141 (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to clarify something, the YouTube clip which shows McShane performing at the Top of the Pops is on a playback, meaning he's only lip-synching. And at the time, there were multiple radio versions available for "Tarzan Boy"; therefore, it may sound a bit different from the version that was originally known to most. While it's clear that McShane has been able to pick up Italian over the years he spent in Italy, it's highly doubtable that it may have affected his Irish accent. I personally can't hear no Italian accent when I listen to Baltimora's tracks, maybe because I'm not a native English speaker; however, I don't believe that the rumors about McShane not being the original singer of Baltimora's songs have emerged due to the accent that native English speakers have detected.--Harout72 (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Point taken. I've seen the credits in for vocals on both official CD releases. Both credit McShane with lead vocals. If he merely lip-synched for the videos only then surely Bassi would have been given credit for vocals. After all, why would the public care anyway who sang? I am English and whilst the early singles do have the sound of a more European accent but the second album sounds slightly different once again. I believe McShane sang, after all nobody knows how he sounded when speaking anyway. Ajsmith141 (talk) 13:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't have any of Baltimora's albums in my possession, I only have the '93 version of "Tarzan Boy" which honestly doesn't mention McShane's name anywhere, it only says Written by Naimy Hackettt, Maurizio Bassi, Aranged and Produced by Maurizio Bassi, and has other names for Additional Production and Remix work, but no McShane. If; however, McChane is credited on albums for lead vocals, then he has provided the vocals. Again, to me all of Baltimora's records sound as if the vocals are provided by a non-Italian, unless of course Bassi is someone who's spent decades living in the English speaking world and decided to produce records in Italy, that is if the vocals are provided by him. I've heard many Italo Disco projects in my time, and those sung by Italians are quite obvious, including Miko Mission, Ricky Maltese, David Gray (not to confuse with the English musician) etc..--Harout72 (talk) 16:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to say perhaps I was wrong about the credits. I've ordered both CD albums, haven't received yet but I did ask the seller to check for me, he replied stating both credited McShane but on discogs, there is no credits for vocals at all except backing vocals which McShane if credited to. I'll confirm when I actually get them, either the seller got it wrong or discogs didn't add all the information. If there are no credits at all for vocals then it still leaves the possibility for either McShane or Bassi singing. Perhaps there's an interview somewhere with Bassi speaking? What also caught my eye was the duo London Boys. The producer Ralf-René Maué wrote and produced all the material. The singer Edem Ephraim isn't credited for vocals at all but it's no doubt him. He speaks in this video and listening to the duo's material, the voices match. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMJMw19iyk) Ajsmith141 (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, listening to what Bassi's accent sounds like when he speaks in English should be enough to decide whether the vocals are provided by him or now. If heavy Italian accent is detected, then, surely it's not his voice on the recordings. I tried to look for an interview or anything by Maurizio Bassi, but my efforts were in vain as I found nothing.--Harout72 (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

McShane actually speaks English here - explains that he learned to dance and sing in London before eventually moving to Italy. He cites Living in the Background as "his" album. Ajsmith141 (talk) 18:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

About YTMND references
Regarding the whole "YTMND isn't notable" stuff: As with Dschinghis Khan, I'd actually say that a reference here doesn't work, but reference on the main Tarzan Boy article does.

Any other opinions? --Crazy SunShine 07:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Referencing YTMND in articles is a very helpful thing to do for the common people, and also gives an example of the article's fame, but unfortunately, many of our power-wielding wiki-admins do not agree. If you reference something related to YTMND, prepare to get into a cat fight with one. Just look at me. Bubby the Tour G 05:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's not helpful, because the common people don't actually care. Just zis Guy you know? 12:31, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I already know that you don't care. However, most other people would definetly care. Name another part where Baltimora or Tarzan Boy is popular beyond YTMND, that is not already listed in the article. I challenge you. Bubby the Tour G 18:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * For values of most which excludes most people, I would suggest. YTMND is not the world, difficult though it may be for the obsessive YTMNDers to accept. Just zis Guy you know? 19:51, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * YTMND > j00.

what an idiot, if you think the voice singing this song is an irish singer then you must be deaf, it is so clearly italian !!!!

Now now, let's not act all superior when you yourself have no idea either. It's sad to see people insult others based on their personal thoughts on the subject, instead of facts. If it sounds Italian to you, great, go with that as your Opinion, but please for the love of decency don't think it makes you right and everyone else who thinks differently wrong. - Victis_Omega

Bio section
This is a pretty unencylopedic article--more critical essay than article. Someone added a bigraphical section which has some good material, but is unsourced and also unencyclopedic in tone. I've moved it here in the hope that it might get some attention:
 * He was born May 23, 1957, in Londonderry Northern Ireland. He grew up on Ivy Terace off Bishop on city side. He was known in a gay community as “Ruby”. Apparently he was gay or bi sexual and was given his nickname by an ex boyfrend. He enjoyed being with men, going to parties and buying the very best most expensive things. He was very kind and loving to both friends and family. He loved life and lived it to the fullest and that’s what made his death all the more tragic. He died on March 28, 1995 at Gransha specialist care unit alone and pennyless at the age of 37. And evidently his family didn’t help and so left him alone.

 &middot; rodii &middot;  22:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

- Update There is a lot of info on the net with this information. It's common knowledge. There's no proof Freddie Mercury was 'bisexual' yet it's listed, same with Jimmy. I re-added it, due to the fact that it's common knowledge and it's been included in official biographies of Jimmy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.22.246 (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact the he was gay is uncontested, but it's the other info which is a problem (which thankfully isn't back on the page). It's quite a controversial thing to say that someone died alone and penniless - so someone claims to have access to his bank account details?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Content
This article is more on the Tarzan Boy single than it is about Baltimora.

HIV status
It has been suggested that the subject of this article is eligible for inclusion in the list of HIV-positive people. If you know of any reliable source that helps to clarify this person's HIV status then please mention it on the list's talk page. Trezatium 19:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Content II
Some of the info is a bit confusing.

1. It says that Jimmy McShane (an individual) is also known as Balimora. Then it says he is th frontman of the band. What band? It doesn't mention a band before that statement. Unless Baltimora is the band, in which case Jimmy McShane is not also known as Baltimora.

2. It says he is from Northern Ireland, but then in the info box on the right it says he is from Italy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 221.85.6.230 (talk) 02:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Here is a link which leads to one proof that "Baltimora" was lip-synched
This link is of an interview by Tom Hooker, who also was a singer in Italy's music market during Italo-Disco era. Tom Hooker was the actual singer for another Italian new wave project called "Den Harrow" 1985-1987. In the end of the interview (under the Epilogue), Tom names a few projects including "Baltimora" which were based on lip-synchronisation technique.

Harout72 May 30, 2007

http://www.euro-flash.net/deejays.php?djID=2

It also says Jimmy McShane is Scottish? I don't think so! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.22.246 (talk) 02:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

YTMND

 * wow no ytmnd references, similar to what they did with the 300 article, i still think it's dumb --AnYoNe! 22:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * scratch that they seem to ended up putting it anyway, seems they came to their senses --AnYoNe! 22:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * just a little addendum, check out the Tarzan Boy page's shoutbox at Last.FM, not many references to Listerine or Coca-Cola (in fact neither the Listerine nor the Coca-Cola articles mention the song). --AnYoNe! 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * i think it's safe to say that the song had the most exposure in recent times (ie: the 2000s) due to YTMND --AnYoNe! 22:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing gay lesbian icon
Baltimora project had nothing to do with representing gays, yes the frontman of the project Jimmy McShane was gay himself but that certainly does not mean he actually had control over what the producers of the project wanted to represent. Both the music and the lyrics were done by Maurizio Bassi and Naimy Hackett. New wave genre was viewed as something relating to gays mostly in England including acts like Erasure, Dead or Alive, Bronski Beat. This was not the case in Italy and Germany where the producers were simply into making music following the genre that was in demand. And new-wave or Europop were not viewed as gay music in those teritories --Harout72 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, Harout72 - I've replaced the WikiProject banner, mostly because Jimmy McShane redirects to this article. Even if you discount that, 16000 Google hits for "baltimora gay" shows that the two are linked :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The immature portrayal of those web sites should not be followed here at wikipedia, those sites are simply made by ignorant people who tend to follow the crowd of stereotypers. If the name of Jimmy McShane causes some difficulty to see this project's real essence then I suggest we remove his name from the article and not mention it at all as he was only chosen by the producers to simply lip-synch the lyrics on the stage, in other words, his singing skill was such an undeveloped one that they didn't even think they could sell the records as well as they did if they let him sing. Here is a good starting point to see what I'm refering to, see the Epilogue of Tom Hooker's interview . --Harout72 (talk) 07:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Possible son?
So, I happened to be looking through the Baltimora Forum awhile ago, and I stumbled across a link to a post by this American man who claims to have recently discovered he was Jimmy McShane's biological son! Here's the link to the post itself: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=506334

I know, crazy, right!? I tried to add it into the main article for this entry several times, but (perhaps understandably), the information was reverted or removed, since it came from an online forum, which is considered unreliable. It seems easy to say that it's just hogwash, but some of the facts this supposed "son" mentioned do seem to add up, and I guess there's no real reason to doubt it, per se. What do people think? Even if it's true, is it worth adding to the main article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.38.213 (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * We cannot support statements of any kind with forums. Please see Reliable source examples. If there are reliable sources backing up those claims about McShane having a son, that, we could consider using.--Harout72 (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

McShane Bio here, versus actual article
Why is there a bio of McShane in this article? There is a separate article for McShane himself, which contains nearly identical text. As this article on Baltimora wikilinks to the McShane article, can we remove this section from it? WikkanWitch (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The information on Jimmy McShane was on the Baltimora article because that's where it appeared first. After I originally added the section, another editor created a separate article for McShane, using the same information. I've removed the section from the Baltimora article now. Ajsmith141 (talk) 13:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Re-direct recommendation
I would recommend the whole Baltimora page be redirected into the page on Jimmy McShane, as the sources suggest Baltimora was a one man outfit, not an actual musical ensemble. We can re-direct the "members" section into his page and title "personnel", etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citadel48 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. You don't redirect Baltimora to McShane's main page only because he was the frontman of the project. These should remain separate.--Harout72 (talk) 01:02, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Third opinion
We are in dispute over whether it was even a band; the evidence suggests Baltimora was McShane's stagename, and not any sort of group name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Citadel48 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 22 April 2015 (UTC) my sources for my claim of it being a solo act are:, The album sleeves (which he claims list the "band" members, in fact list session musicians that only performed in studio, never during performances)> Yet McShane, not anyone else was the only one performing.Citadel48 (talk) 06:49, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * But the sources clearly indicate that it was a band. I'm starting to sense a little WP:IDHT here.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 07:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirecting this article to the singer's article is clearly no benefit. Band has produced notable albums and singles. SamuelDay1 (talk) 07:17, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Undue weight for "new wave"
"New wave" should not be added in the infobox as it only supported by one reliable source. See WP:UNDUE. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This source clearly says New wave music from Italy, it doesn't refer to the album only.--Harout72 (talk) 11:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It refers to the album not the group. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Also there are much more sources which associate the group with the Italo disco, as proved by my new additions. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The inclusion of the name of Living in the Background doesn't mean the source talks about the album only.--Harout72 (talk) 11:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It does. The intro and the context explicitly talk about albums and not artists Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:31, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The source talks both about the album and the general genre of the band. You are completely obsessed with Italo disco, and you are not letting other editors to submit their contributions.--Harout72 (talk) 11:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * No, only some of these reviews explicitly associate an artist (eg. the second revew) but not all of them (including Living in the Backgroung). Also I perfectly let you making your changes but you need to respect rules such as WP:UNDUE. You're clearly giving extra weight to the genre. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:45, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Also note that Italo disco and new wave were two different musical scenes and Baltimora was clearly associated with the first one, as mentionned in Made in Italy: Studies in Popular Music. Synthwave.94 (talk) 11:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Given the background between the two of you and this matter specifically, can I suggest that you both seek out third/fourth opinions about this (at a WikiProject or WP:3O for example) in an effort to determine some lasting consensus? &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 15:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The three additional sources I added today prove Baltimora is typically associated with the Italo disco scene, not the new wave scene (I've already explained that both scenes were different). I also found a partial solution to the problem adding a new section (where I mention both genres), but Harout72 fails to understand my purpose and continue giving undue weight to "new wave" (which is correctly supported by one source only). Note that he admitted he "never get involved in editing genres" before and agreed about not getting himself involved in editing genres again. Synthwave.94 (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Clearly does not agree nor accept your explanation. It only seems prudent to find a third opinion before one of you brings the other to ANI or the edit war again reaches 3RR. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 13:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's irrelevent, he's still giving undue weight to the new wave genre. Synthwave.94 (talk) 14:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not undue weight to mention new wave in the infobox. I think the article overall should refer to the group as Italo-disco, though.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 17:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * 3family6, Italo disco and new wave were different genres (and musical scenes) : Italo disco is rooted in late-70s European disco music and was typically Italian (as explained in Made in Italy: Studies in Popular Music), while new wave is heavily associated with punk and became popular in the UK and The US. Baltimora is clearly associated with the Italo disco scene and giving extra weight to a genre misrepresentative of Baltimora's musical scene is inappropriate here. Synthwave.94 (talk) 18:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Italo disco is a style not a genre, although some sources incorrectly call it a genre. In other words, it doesn't specifically represent one single type of genre, it represents wide variety of genres, New wave, synthpop, and even pop. Baltimora is Italo-disco style New wave, including songs like "Woodie Boogie", "Tarzan Boy" and others. All of the Italian dance music from the early, mid and even second half of the 80s was referred to as Italo-disco, some were New wave, while most were synthpop.--Harout72 (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's irrelevent - no, it's not. Wikipedia is based on collaboration and consensus. Declaring yourself right and the argument of the person who disagrees with you "irrelevant" is not how things work. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 02:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * : Completly incorrect, Italo disco is clearly a musical genre, as proved by multiple reliable sources, including Made in Italy: Studies in Popular Music, this article from State, this article from Fact, this article from The Guardian, this review from Stylus Magazine and this article written by the music critic Chuck Eddy. Synthwave.94 (talk) 10:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * : I said it is irrelevent because Harout72 is not the only editor looking over this article. Synthwave.94 (talk) 10:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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