Talk:Baltimore Elite Giants

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the debate was: it was moved—jiy (talk) 18:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The Baltimore page currently redirects to the Nashville page. Since the team ceased operations in Baltimore after 12 seasons the redirect should be the opposite.


 * Support As with some other sports pages on Wikipedia, the current or last city in which the team plays/played is where the article should be listed. For example Baltimore Colts.  Movementarian 09:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sections
I wasn't sure if the article should be broken up by home city or by league. By league seemed to flow easier, but someone can reorganize it by home city if preferred. 64.85.221.184 (talk) 15:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

1921 title
I am not convinced that 1921 was anything more than an exhibition. First, the source given (Holway) does not list them in the NSL that year, nor does the text of the article. Second, I was under the impression that the better independent teams of the south simply challenged each other to see who could call themselves the '21 "Southern Colored Champion"; regardless it was not a "league" title, so to speak, since Nashville was unaffiliated AFAIK. Therefore, I have removed the 1921 from the infobox league titles, and altered the text slightly. Rgrds. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.214.50 (talk) 14:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you may be right. I wanted to take the article further and expand the later years' info also, but I started running into sources that contradicted each other, so I gave up in utter confusion. NatureBoyMD (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You want confusion -- HERE is confusion; it also has some good tips on researching Negro leagues. So keep looking, if you screw something up it'll all come out in the wash.  Rgrds. (Dynamic IP, will change when I log off.) --64.85.214.50 (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Ballparks
I am researching the 1942 NNL and NAL season, and the Baltimore Afro-American reports that the Elite Giants played their home games at Bugle Field in 1942. I don't know (all my references are at home) whether this is a distinct stadium, or just a renaming of (or an alternate name for) another park. Since I've confined my research to this one season at the moment, I also can't tell you if this was their home for more than one season. -- Couillaud 21:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Bugle Field was a separate, smaller ballpark that had previously been used by the Baltimore Black Sox. I suspect that the Elite Giants used it as their primary ballpark and rented out the larger Terrapin/Oriole Park or Venable Stadium for special, high attendance games. For example, the Chicago Defender of May 9, 1942 says that a crowd of 12,000 is expected for a doubleheader against Philadelphia at Oriole Park. On a search of 4 black newspapers between 1938 and 1944, I get 76 results for "Elite Giants" and "Oriole" and 95 results for "Elite Giants" and "Bugle." I'm adding Bugle Field to the list of ballparks since it appears to have been used as much or more than the others. BRMo (talk) 04:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I looked for newspaper references for the Elite Giants playing at the old Venable/Memorial/Municipal Stadium between 1944 and 1949 and didn't find any (though it's possible I may have overlooked some). On the other hand, I did find this article, which says that they were denied use of the stadium. Green Cathedrals is the source I looked at when I added Venable Stadium for 1944-49, but it's pretty clear that Bugle Field was their main home field during that period. So I'm going to drop Venable Stadium. On the other hand, I did find several sources saying that in 1950 they were playing at the newly constructed Memorial Stadium (the one the MLB Orioles later would later play in). BRMo (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


 * A quick check of my notes shows that Opening Day at Oriole Park was the Elite Giants' only home game at that venue, and as an aside, they only drew approximately 5,500, and after a 10-inning first game, saw the second game cancelled due to wartime curfew. The notes show they hosted 16 dates at Bugle Field (many of them double-headers), though I can't be certain they were all at Bugle Field (reports don't always identify the ballpark, thought they usually do if it's a step up from the standard).  More research is needed, apparently. -- Couillaud 18:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150202073947/http://www.cnlbr.org/Portals/0/Standings/Negro%20Southern%20League%20%20%281920-1951%29.pdf to http://www.cnlbr.org/Portals/0/Standings/Negro%20Southern%20League%20%20%281920-1951%29.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150203012230/http://www.cnlbr.org/Portals/0/Standings/Negro%20National%20League%20%281920-1948%29.pdf to http://www.cnlbr.org/Portals/0/Standings/Negro%20National%20League%20%281920-1948%29.pdf

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1931 season: Cleveland Cubs/Nashville Elite Giants
To me, this team's timeline has never been that clear for the 1931 season. There was a Nashville Elite Giants team that played in the NSL and also a Cleveland Cubs team that played in the NNL. From what I can derive is that these are the same teams according to their rosters (for the most part): '31 Cleveland roster vs. '31 Nashville roster (p.48). Maybe I'm way off or maybe I'm missing something, but I'm figuring the Elite Giants left one league mid-season and joined the other, or maybe they split their team in both leagues? Does anyone else have any sources on this?? Rgrds. --BX (talk) 08:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * A quick search at Newspapers.com turned up several articles from papers noting the teams playing against each other throughout the year. This one mentions their league memberships. This one mentions Nashville withdrawing from the NNL to join the new NSL. NatureBoyMD (talk) 13:05, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I do not have email enabled so I cannot access the Library. Do the articles mention anything about the different cities or why they relocated or why they switched leagues? But they do confirm they are the same team?
 * Here's what I do know: Nashville was part of the re-organization of the NSL in March 1931. There were standings printed in July with Nashville in 1st with around 33 games played, and Nashville was declared NSL champion at some point but the season was not completed.  Nashville then played in the Negro Dixie Series against Monroe at some point later.  The Cleveland team played in the NNL with around 50+ games played in 1931.  Did Nashville drop out of the collapsing NSL and switch to the NNL as the Cleveland Cubs?  Rgds. --BX (talk) 04:32, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * One article from March 15, 1931, specifically says the "Nashville Elite Giants" "withdrew from the National League to join the Southern." I can't find a reason. Another mentions Cleveland seeking membership in the NNL.  Nashville won both halves of the 1931 NSL season and played the Monroe, LA, club in a best-of-seven Dixie Series  scheduled to begin on August 30.
 * It looks to me that they are completely different teams. Cleveland replaced Nashville in the NNL, but Nashville continued in the NSL. It seems that this article should show Nashville going from the NNL (1930) to NSL (1931–32) back to the NNL (1933), and the Cleveland Cubs should be treated as a separate team all together. NatureBoyMD (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
 * For the most part I agree, seamheads has had them as separate teams for some time now. One thing that lingers for me is the high cross-over in the rosters.  Anyway, it will be a mild undertaking to split out all of the intertwining links and articles from the two.  I think I'll drop a note at WT:BASEBALL and see who weighs in and see if possibly splitting the articles is the way forward.  Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, forgot to mention, there was a Cleveland Cubs (Foster Memorial Giants) in 1932 that also seems to be a distinct team. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 04:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Since it has been a few weeks with no objections, I split out the Cleveland Cubs to the former redirect. Rgrds. --BX (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)