Talk:Baltimore Orioles/Archive 1

Milwaukee Brewers
I would like to see more information and definitely some logos and uniforms of the original Milwaukee Brewers team that became the Browns and then the Orioles. Being that the Brewers were the original team of this franchise, it would be nice to trace those first important decades in Milwaukee in the 1800's --Maximilian77 06:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Marc Okkonen's book, Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century, should have something about it, as they were a major in 1901. Wahkeenah 18:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Uniform pics
Are the Orioles really going to wear black PANTS with their black alternate jersey, as shown in the picture? Somehow I doubt this, and I think a new, ACCURATE picture should be put up. 152.119.108.116 19:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't say for sure, but I'll bet you're right. However, it looks like that picture came from the Baseball Hall of Fame, so I don't know how we'd get a more accurate one. --CPAScott 12:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you exhaust all other options, you could always go to the O's official website and see what they have to say about their uniform colors. Wahkeenah 22:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry. The error has been fixed.  I don't know why I made the pants black, but yes, they do wear white pants with the alternative jersey.  It was just a slip of the mind when creating the alternate image. Silent Wind of Doom 04:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

9-21-06 fan protest
Include on page or no?

I vote no. It would be something for wikinews, not the encylopedia. Nobody will remember it in a little while. --PKirlin 02:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I vote definitely yes. This was a grass-roots campaign to show fan displeasure with the ownership.  When the team is eventually sold to a new owner, fans will look back and remember that the original fan protest of 2006 was a stepping stone.  There's another fan protest being planned for 2007, and I anticipate that these kinds of protests will continue every year until Angelos sells the team.  So, I think it's an important piece of information to include in the article.  Beeracuda 15:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Does not meet WP:NN. In fact, I'm going to delete the latest update in that section. There's already way too much space devoted to this NN aspect of the team. --Mmpartee 05:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fans protesting a team's poor performance belongs in the "News of the Weird" category. If the Cubs fans held a similar protest, they would probably call upon Chicago's Finest to arrest the team for a century of impersonating a major league baseball club. Wahkeenah 08:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Franchise History
Is someone actively working on this? I would like to add to it, but I don't want to step on someone's toes if they are actively working on it.--Duffaholic 14:29, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

St. Louis Browns
Perhaps the history of the Browns should come under a separate heading?--Duffaholic 14:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The history of the St. Louis Browns needs to be expanded upon. I'm sure that there's a ton of interesting information out there, doesn't anyone have access to any of it to put on the main page? Darwin&#39;s Bulldog 09:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Browns should have a separate (and expanded) heading? The history and baseball significance of the St. Louis Browns are quite distinct from that of the Baltimore Orioles. Yadin twelve 02:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am wondering if it would not be better then to just spin off the Browns into a seperate article. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:30, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The Browns absolutely need their own article.

Gabe80 17:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You could bring this up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball. Baseball Bugs 18:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I added a mention of Ned Garver, as I feel his contributions to the Browns are very noteworthy. Gabe80 17:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's an understatement, for sure. Without Garver, they would have resembled the 1899 Cleveland club. Baseball Bugs 18:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Headers...
I'm not sure that "The 2006 Turnaround?" is a good header. The Orioles have spoken of "turnarounds" for years now, so this statement would be speculative at best. It's similar to how every year, sportscasters on DC-area radio and television stations say that the Redskins will surely win the Super Bowl; after a while, it really sounds like they're crying wolf. --Idont Havaname 17:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Right. Everyone starts the season undefeated. Even the Chicago Cubs. d:) Wahkeenah 18:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

40-man roster?
How do you edit the 40-man roster? I clicked on "Edit," but all it showed was the title, not the list of players.
 * It's at Template:Baltimore Orioles roster. --Idont Havaname 04:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I updated the roster page...any way to transfer that to the main Baltimore Orioles page?

Opinion
While it may certainly be fun to call Peter Angelos "inept", it is debatable whether it should be included in an article proposing to be fact. Besides, what defines inept anyway? As an owner he is responsible for generating profit, which by all accounts is precisely what he has been able to do.

It's not even debatable if he's inept or not, he is quite inept --The General 21:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet he's a millionaire, and we're not. Go figure. Baseball Bugs 18:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

2005 offseason - Jeromy Burnitz
Since it's official that he's signed with the Pirates, I'm removing the paragraph about Jeromy Burnitz. --Idont Havaname 03:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent news overkill
Looks like this article is falling into the familiar trap of reporting every single transaction and news event and bit offseason activity of the past few months. E.g., the sentence:
 * The 2005 season will likely go down as the most controversial in the Orioles' history.

Will it really? I don't think so. Yeah, 2005 sucked for the O's but the most controversial in team history?! This is only here because it's so fresh in the memory. If this is still here in five years, it won't make sense to anyone. Remember, this is the franchise that started a season at 0-21!!!! 2005 can't possibly be considered more controversial than that. Try to keep recent events in perspective and remember that this article isn't called 2005 Baltimore Orioles, it's just "Baltimore Orioles". Individual trades aren't mentioned from 1976 so why should they be given so much attention in 2005? Just one baseball history buff's opinion... —Wknight94 (talk) 19:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Consider the previous talk section about Jeromy Burnitz. Burnitz had his own paragraph here?!  The trade that brought Frank Robinson to Baltimore and triggered two World Championships and four league pennants - that gets one sentnce.  But crappy Burnitz (sorry, I'm a Mets fan so I have to preface with the word "crappy") gets his own paragraph?!  —Wknight94 (talk) 19:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

If you can think of a more controversial O's season than '05, I'd like to hear it. Consider: Rafael Palmeiro, weeks after getting his 3000th hit, gets busted for steroids, basically ruining his career, and then tries to implicate Miguel Tejada, the O's superstar. Sammy Sosa, who was already controversial when the O's acquired him, comes into town and stinks up the joint, and he and Tejada reportedly can't stand each other, ruining the clubhouse further. Sidney Ponson spends 10 days in jail for punching a judge, then gets not one but two DUIs, infuriating the O's so much that they try to void his contract. Steve Kline openly bashes his manager, Lee Mazzilli, who gets fired in August. And oh yes, the O's enter June in first place and then suffer the biggest collapse in baseball history (no team has ever dropped in winning percentage so drastically in one season), and fall into fourth place for the 7th time in 8 years.

I can't think of an O's season even remotely as controversial as '05. What was controversial about the 0-21 season? They just stunk. There was no controversy there.

The Ripken Era
The needs to be information about the fact that during the 1980s, the Orioles won the 1983 World Series, Earl Weaver left (Joe Altobelli was the manager for the 1983 team) and then returned shortly thereafter for a brief period. There was also, of course, the horrendous 1988 season (which saw Cal Ripken, Sr. get fired after six games and then Frank Robinson taking over) and the dramatic turnaround in 1989.User:TMC1982

2006 Opening Day
Tagged the section with inappropriate tone. It seems more like a news blurb then an encyclopaedia entry, and ii am not sure that a a section devoted on opening say for one season, while an "important game", warrants an entry as such in this article, rather would be better situated with Wikinews. I don't know it it could be saved, and as of now i would move to remove it, but i would figure i would put out feelers to see if it could be improved or see what others have to think. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely no reason for this to appear in an encyclopedia entry. It is precisely why wikinews exists. I am sitting here imagining daily updates on the most recent game... it is not pretty. Please delete it.--Apostlemep12 16:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

2005-2006 Offseason
Do we really need that much detail? I'm just going to hope that the material gets filtered out. OsFan 22:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

BJ was a negative influence? What?--The General 21:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

About the music.
I have to question the validity of this statement.


 * "It has been an Orioles tradition since 1980 to play John Denver's "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" after "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" during the seventh inning stretch. "

There was a time where "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" was plade exclusively without playing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame". There was also a time where "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" was not played at all. And I believe that they have played other songs during the 7th inning stretch. At a recent game that I attended I believe they played a patriotic song followed by "Thank God....".

Perhaps we can clear this up with stating that Oriole Tradition includes playing "Thank God..." and make some reference to the fact that they stopped playing the song for a while but returned to the tradition?


 * True, it was at least a 5 year period in which country boy was not played, though i don't know the date but i think they stopped playing it when then moved to Camden Yards, or not long after, and was restarted in the years in which they were back in the playoffs. I know it was a big deal when it was stopped and when it started back up again, and i think the Angelos had something to do with why it was not played, something like he was not a fan of the song, but i cant say for sure. Anyway yeah if we can find the right information then i am all for clearing it up. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe that on Sundays the patriotic song that they play is "God Bless America". I believe a lot of MLB teams have adopted Sunday as a day to play it. OsFan 20:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I went to a game last season where God Bless America was played, and followed by Thank God Im a Country Boy. This section needs some verifiable information to correct the musical history of the games. DanielZimmerman 06:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There was actually a time in the late 1980s when "Country Boy" was replaced by The Beatles' "Twist and Shout", which was routinely booed by traditionist fans. Eventually, "Country Boy" was returned, only to be replaced again when the team moved to Camden Yards.  Beeracuda 15:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Robinson brothers?
Since when are Brooks and Frank brothers? Additionally, this section only mentions one of them...I'm confused as to its purpose.


 * If you do a google search on "Robinson Brothers" (and perhaps Orioles as well) you will see that Frank and Brooks where referred to as the "Robinson Brothers" even though they are not actually related. DanielZimmerman 15:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality?
The opening section states that the Baltimore Orioles are one of the 'elite' teams in baseball. I'm sorry, but I know a heck of a lot about baseball and I would never consider putting them in the category of elite by any means. (For example: The New York Yankees have won more games against the Orioles/Browns than any other club- not very persuading.)


 * Check some more facts then that and then we'll talk, they are indeed elite. Oh, an about your "Fact" WE ARE IN THEIR DIVISION, someone in their division has to have lost to them the most, it just makes sense.


 * How can you prove that they are elite? I beleive that you are just a Baltimore fan who desires more respect for your team. The Minnesota Twins, Cleveland Indians, Chicago White Sox, and the Oakland Athletics are all certainly on the "same level" as the Orioles. This simple reason is also due to the fact that the Orioles are one of the original members of the American League like the forementioned teams... this makes them a classic team, not an "elite" team. If you want to know my definition of elite teams, they are the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Braves, Giants, and Dodgers. You can't have too many more elite teams than that... if the Orioles were elite, half, if not more than half, of teams in baseball would be.


 * That same argument can be made against your point. You include teams such as the Red Sox, Cardinals, Braves, Giants, and Dodgers.  Each and every one of those teams has had extended periods of losing years, as well as their runs of successful years.  The description of "elite" is very subjective, and probably doesn't deserve to be included in an encyclopedia.  One can state facts, such as the number of World Series wins, or the number of overall wins in a franchise's history.  Those facts are not subject to debate.  Beeracuda 15:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe they're being confused with the Baltimore Elite Giants. Wahkeenah 17:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Elrod
Are we sure Elrod was "designated for assignment" as the article says? I've never heard this term applied to a coach before. From an article in the Washington Post about his death, it says the O's decided to not renew his contract as bullpen coach. --PKirlin 22:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe you are correct. Perhaps this inaccuracy came about because Elrod's own article states that he was going to be "reassigned" within the organization after his bullpen coach contract was not renewed past the end of the 2005 season. He was to remain with the organization in a community relations capacity due to his immense popularity with O's fans. --Mmpartee 03:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

History page
I propose we eliminate History of the Baltimore Orioles and merge that content into the main Baltimore Orioles page. However, there may not be any merging to actually do, because the history page looks like just a copy of an old version of the history section of the main page. --PKirlin 17:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You could bring this up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball. Baseball Bugs 18:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Retired Numbers
I did the retired numbers in a graphic version as I did for STL and helped do with the NYY page. This has also been copied for the pages of BOS, DET, MIL, and the NYM. This is done in a way that looks like it's displayed at the stadium, so you can see it was a bit more of a challenge given the unorthodox way this is done at Camden Yards. I tried my best, but had limited pictures to work from. If the numbers are too far off, perhaps one who has one could upload it and give a link on my talk page. I have pictures of 5 and 8, with 42 in the background. A picture could also be used in the article underneath, with an explaination of the Number Garden concept. It's quite interesting, and, should be mentioned here under retired numbers beside mention on the Camden Yards page.

Hope you like my change. Silent Wind of Doom 03:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, Silent Wind, thanks for doing that with the numbers. They look very nice. I think they are fairly good representations of the numbers retired in the garden, although the width of the lines in the '4' look a little too skinny. But overall, a very nice addition to the article. --Mmpartee 23:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

1999 series vs. Cuba national team
Shouldn't this article say something about the exhibition series played in 1999 between the Baltimore Orioles and the Cuban national team? --ChaChaFut 04:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there should be. CynicofWiki 18:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The NL Orioles of the 1890s
Since there's a separate article Baltimore Orioles (19th century), I'm going to add a note to that as well as the AL Orioles of 1901 at the top of the article as well as the Int'l League Orioles of the 1920s-40s. Currently, this article seems to equate "Baltimore Orioles" solely with the Browns franchise  JGHowes talk  -  19:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"Free the Birds"
'''"We Want A New Owner!!!"

Sorry guys (and gals!) for putting "we want a new owner on the page". Just saw the orioles page and had a fit of rage as they are in a losing streak (again.) Maybe someday I'll live to see them win another World Series (maybe.)- Melo1522

The section of this article seems heavily weighted in favor of Aparicio and far too POV. I'm putting a POV tag on the section - work is needed with citations and better NPOV.

I've deleted the Aparicio website per WP:EL and the part about the opening game press pass dispute as unencyclopedic.  JGHowes talk  -  23:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

2005 season is a mess!
There's three separate paragraphs about the 2005 season, all pretty much saying the same thing  --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 02:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Radio and Television
When I moved to Maryland in 1974, Tom Marr was a newscaster on Baltimore's WFBR-AM, "Mad Radio 13." WFBR's sports reporter was Charlie Eckman, whose colorful commentary included this advise for those he did not agree with: "Call a cab!" However, the Orioles games were broadcast on WBAL (1100 AM), a clear-channel station (in the original sense of the phrase.) That was the case at least from 1974-77, and probably much longer. I don't recall WFBR having the O's. When did that happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiofreespike (talk • contribs) 02:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Hall of Famers template
Not sure about this footnote: "* Has no insignia on his cap due to playing at a time when caps bore no insignia. " Sure they did - cap logos go back a least to the beginning of the American League.  George Sisler wore cap logos in Boston and Washington, and Rube Waddell wore one for the Browns. SixFourThree (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree

Browns to Los Angeles?
This sentence is often repeated:

"In 1941, the Browns asked AL owners for permission to move to Los Angeles for the 1942 season, and got tentative approval from the league. A schedule was even drawn up including Los Angeles, and the move was expected to win final approval at a league meeting on December 8. However, the bombing of Pearl Harbor a day earlier resulted in it never coming to a vote."

However, there's no citation. And an article about those meetings in the December 6, 1941 New York Times makes no mention of the upcoming vote. Can anybody substantiate this, or is it mere rumor? SixFourThree (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree


 * I've seen plenty of references to it on the web, all of which seem to copy each other. I also saw one crediting Bill Veeck with that attempt, 11 years later. Something sounds either bogus or at least questionable about this. I would remove it until further research can be done. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 21:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Good call - thanks. SixFourThree (talk) 17:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)SixFourThree


 * I'm on the road and have no access to hard-copy resources, but I'm pretty sure I can put the Veeck story to rest quickly once I get back, as I'm sure he would mention it in his book. The other might take some more effort, although I have a hunch my copy of the Baltimore Orioles history might get into it. Give me a week or so. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames
Is this section really necessary? I think it should be deleted. Half of the nicknames in there aren't even commonly used. Jr ss r5 14:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I will second the motion that this entire nickname section is extremely un-encyclopedic and does nothing in making this a better, more informative article. At best it needs to be a separate article. Also, I think the addition of "Coach" under Earl Weaver, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, and Eddie Murray in the Monument section only detracts from the milestones that these great players (and manager) achieved. Of course we should have Manager with Frank Robinson, because that is a notable achievement. But Brooks Robinson as Coach? C'mon, get real! He has a monument for his play at 3B. I'm going to take those out if there is no further objection. Too much information only detracts from the good information that an encyclopedia should be about. --Mmpartee (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No objection here ... go for it. Jr ss r5  19:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed some OR
As the national anthem, it signifies American freedoms; one of these freedoms is presumably the freedom to shout "O!" during its performance. Seems like pure conjecture/OR to me, so I removed it. audiodude (talk) 01:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Uniforms
New road uniforms were debuted yesterday ... can we get an updated image? Jr ss r5 13:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

2000–present: Downfall of the O's
This section needs references, because as it stands it looks like pure opinion and conjecture. Jo7hs2 (talk) 20:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Baltimore Memorial Stadium here1.JPG
The image File:Baltimore Memorial Stadium here1.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --16:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)