Talk:Balto-Slavic languages/Serbo-Croatian controversy

Serbo-Croatian
these are the introducing paragraphs of the article Serbo-Croatian

 Serbo-Croatian, Croato-Serbian, or Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS) (Srpskohrvatski, Hrvatskosrpski, or Bosanski/Hrvatski/Srpski'', Cyrillic script: Cрпскохрватски, Xрватскосрпски), is a South Slavic language or diasystem. The term Serbo-Croatian is and has been used both as an umbrella term for all the dialects spoken in what is nowadays Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and more importantly, as the official standard language of Yugoslavia from 1954 to 1990 (partially along with Slovene and Macedonian).

''In its standardized form, it was based on the Neoštokavian subdialect of the Štokavian dialect system, and defined in Ekavian and Ijekavian literary variants, called "pronunciations". Unofficially, there were "Eastern" (based on the Serbian idiom) and "Western" (based on the Croatian and Bosnian idiom) literary variants, that eventuSally served as a basis for standard languages. By extension, Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects were often considered to be dialects of the Serbo-Croatian (while the Torlakian dialect was never recognized in mainstream linguistics), but they were not in official use.

With the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, its languages followed suit and Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian became separate standard languages (Ausbausprachen''); see differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian. Currently, there is a movement to create a Montenegrin language, separating it from Serbian. Conversely, the term "Serbo-Croatian" declined in use, first from official documents and gradually from linguistic literature.

Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to history, politics, and the variable meanings of the word language''. Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the use of the name should be deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity. An alternative name has emerged abroad – Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS), when referring to the same dialectal base (stylised Neoštokavian) used for all the Serbo-Croatian standard languages. In the regional dialectology, the term Central South Slavic diasystem is sometimes used as a collective term, when discussing the intensive mutual influence of Serbo-Croatian dialects in the historical period.'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantabo07 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Your point exactly...? Be concise and to-the-point, otherwise you're likely to get ignored like that suck-puppeteering "Gotho-Baltic" supremacist loon above you. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with the last paragrpah, that the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial. Therefore I question the use of that term in the article. My personal opinion - which is not important to the article itself - is that the language serbo-croatian is a constructed language like Indonesian based on old-malay and modern-standard-arabic based on classical-arabic. Now that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore the once constructed Standard Serbo-Croatian isn't used anymore. Now we have three Standard varieties of the language, namely Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian... therefore with the break up of Yugoslavia Serbo-Croatian became a Diasystem. Further it is interesting that the Diasystem Czech-Sloavk is hardly named as a language anywhere, but Serbo-Croatian nearley everywhere. Therefore, in my opinion, the use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" should be questioned everywhere. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. I don't need instructions how to comment and how to discuss, I am no kid ;-) Further I don't care if my contribution is going to be ignored or not. Those who pay attention are welcome to discuss, those who want to ignore it, shall do so and live in peace. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as "Croatian language", "Bosnian language", "Serbian language" or "Montenegrin language" - these are fabrications invented in the 1990s (and Montengerin more recently in the 2000s) by nationalists who are ashamed by the fact that their "enemies" appear to be speaking exactly the same language that they do. Indeed there is a controversy to the term Serbo-Croatian - but only in the nationalist circles. The rest of the world doesn't care. Most, if not all, modern historical linguistics publications in English language still abundantly use the term, and I assure you that their respective authors have no intention of changing their mind. Look up the works of Derksen, Kortlandt, Jasanoff, Dybo and other notable living and dead Balto-Slavists - it's Serbo-Croatian absolutely everywhere. To the extent this article is interested, the Neoštokovian dialectal basis preserving the mobile paradigms of PBSl. - it's absurd that we clone 1 column into 4 identical ones just to satisfy some nationalist egos.


 * It's amusing to see Croatian fundamentalist hallucinating that Serbo-Croatian language has something to do with Yugoslavia. Serbo-Croatian language was standardized more than century and a half ago, long before either Yugoslavia existed. Why do you conveniently ignore that historical fact? The practice of usage of that term has 2 centuries of continuous tradition in Slavicist circles.


 * The "Serbo-Croatian diasystem" aka "Central South Slavic language" exists solely in the head of the Brozović and his nationalist cronies who perpetually hallucinate about it striving to establish it as a politically more correct replacement for the term Serbo-Croatian. The notion of it was completely refuted by several linguists, most recently and most notably by Matasović 2008, see Poredbenopovijesna gramatika hrvatskoga jezika p. 64ff.


 * Czech-Slovak? Don't be silly, the differences between those two are 100 times more extensive than between modern-day standards of B/C/S. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Serbian language and Croatian language are only two versions of a SAME language, nothing else.
These are illustrated in the following table:

== Example of translation into English language ( the 'croatian' table doesn't reflect the real language spoken by croatian people, but is only a definitelly unsuccessful attempt to change some words by the weird 'rules' that are only present in the heads of the nationalists. The 'serbian' table represents the language that's really spoken and written by the vaste majority of the people in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia.)1==

Different morphology
Example 1:

Example 2:

Example 3:

Different internationalisms
Example different:

Different historically 1
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/ottoman_empire_europe_1792.jpg

Historically, modern age internationalisms entered Bosnian and Croatian mostly through German and Italian, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localisation patterns were established based on those languages. Also, Greek borrowings came to Serbian directly, but through Latin into Croatian:

Most of chemical element names are different: for international names, Bosnian and Croatian use -ij where Serbian has -ijum (uranij–uranijum). In some native names, Bosnian and Croatian have -ik where Serbian has -(o)nik (kisik–kiseonik(oxygen), vodik–vodonik(hydrogen)). Yet others are totally different (dušik–azot (nitrogen), kositar–kalaj (tin)). Some are the same: srebro (silver), zlato (gold), bakar (copper).

Names of the months
In the Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. But Slavic names may also be used in the Bosnian language as well (although, rarely understood); Latin-derived names are preferred.

Same alphabet letters
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg


 * Croatian alphabet (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž


 * Serbian scripts (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž or  А Б В Г Д Ђ Е Ж З И Ј К Л Љ М Н Њ О П РС Т Ћ У Ф Х Ц Ч Џ Ш


 * Bosnian letter (30 letters): A B V G D Đ E Ž Z I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S T Ć U F H C Č Dž Š

Map of standard language „Central south Slavic“


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Europe_linguistic_map_1907.JPG (Languages in Europe 1900-...) http://haven.apolyton.net/maps/Europe/europe1800_1850c_lang.jpg (Language in Europe 1800-1900)

Map of various national dialects and subdialects in mix subdialects
http://www.muturzikin.com/carteseurope/5.htm (Dialec map in Europe)

South Slavic continum and Central South Slavic diasystem
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/28/20080408171819!Scripts_in_Europe.PNG Script and language

Čakavian and Kaykavian dialects is exclusive Croatian dialect, not serbo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect Croatian diakect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect Croatian Kaykavian dialect

Not neoštokavian dialect, neoštokavian is thre differents dialects
Neoštokavian:
 * 1) Croatian neoštokavian ikavian and western-ijekavian (western štokavian and Dubrovnik)
 * 2) Serbian neoštokavian ekavian and estern-ijekavian (estern štokavian and Užice)
 * Štokavian dialect sistem