Talk:Banastre Tarleton/Archive 1

Waxhaw Massacre
Isn't the claim that he fired on surrendering Continentals, rather than American loyalists (i.e. allied with the British), as it currently reads? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cwenger (talk • contribs) 17:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

"On May 29, 1780 Tarleton, with a force of 700, overtook a detachment of 350 Virginia Continentals led by Abraham Buford. Facing much larger numbers, Buford nevertheless refused to yield."pie

At the time, Tarleton led a force of 270 men: 130 Legion dragoons, 40 17th Light Dragoons, and 100 British Legion infantry (who rode with the dragoons). Of those, only about 150 British soldiers in an advance party were engaged in the massacre. The number 700 comes from a letter Tarleton sent with a Captain, in which he greatly exaggerated the size of his force in the hopes it would cause Buford to surrender. Buford's forces, at 350 to 380 men, greatly outnumbered Tarleton's.--Ryan! 02:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Article on Banastre Tarleton
appears to use the term "matriculated" when it should read "graduated."

TRushing208.27.203.124 23:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving entire trivia section to talk
The Hollywood movie The Patriot (2000) portrayed a character (Colonel William Tavington played by Jason Isaacs) based on Tarleton as a cruel, sadistic commander who massacred prisoners of war and innocent civilians. Although the character in The Patriot dies during the American Revolution, the real life Tarleton did not. "Tavington" is shown burning an American church with the villagers locked inside, an atrocity based on an infamous Nazi war crime from World War II. This controversial portrayal prompted Edwin Clein, the mayor of Liverpool, to demand an apology from the filmmakers for what he regarded as a misrepresentation and vilification of a Liverpudlian hero. 

Tarleton is also portrayed in the 2006 film Amazing Grace (played by Ciarán Hinds) as the main opponent in the British Parliament to the abolitionists, led by William Wilberforce.

Tarleton is additionally mentioned in the Bernard Cornwell novel Sharpe's Eagle, and is represented as being "related" to Sir Henry Simmerson, colonel of the South Essex Regiment.

Tarleton was portrayed as the primary nemesis of Francis Marion in the Disney Swamp Fox series, although the fictional Tarleton was a middle aged man rather than the young man the real Tarleton was. The dress of the dragoons was also incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.92.109 (talk) 05:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC) Toddst1 (talk) 11:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Tavington" and Tarleton
The character "William Tavington" in The Patriot most closely resembles Tarleton, in name and billet: but that character is a composite, incorporating other actions etc committed by or attributed to other notorious British and Loyalist officers in the Carolinas: Maj James Wemyss, Maj Patrick Ferguson, and Capt Christian Huck. The latter two were killed in action with rebel militia, Ferguson at King's Mountain and Huck at Brattonville.--Solicitr (talk) 20:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Francisco's Fight
I've edited the punctuation on this and left it in place for the moment, but is there any particular reason to mention this rather forgettable incident here? If it happened at all, it was a tiny skirmish, in which Tarleton was not materially involved. If anything is to be added, one might add a sentence on his participation in the battle at Gloucester Point, where he was unhorsed. Winterbadger (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 08:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Name pronunciation
Should we not mention how his first name is pronounced (stressed as in "canister" IIRC)?

Also, should we not mention that he gave the British army the "Tarleton" hat as worn by the Light Dragoons and Horse Artillery for the next 50-odd years?

Tirailleur (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The first point, if it is uncontroversial, should be done in IPA. The second would need a reliable source linking the two, which is likely not hard to come by no? Sadads (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The family (i.e. the descendants of his brother Thomas) pronounce the name Ba-NAH-ster. There is, however, ample contemporary evidence that he and those around him pronounced it BAN-is-ster. So, in that respect, it is controversial.Rannaro (talk) 21:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

War Disability (when, where?)
I have added at tail end of the section of his career during the American War the fact he lost two fingers in battle, mentioned in his article in the History of Parliament Online (volume for MPs who sat in period 1790-1820), quoting to its words it was "an electoral asset". If someone can put a more precise time and place for their loss they are welcome to do so, even if it means moving the reference to suit the chronology. Ciaran Hinds' portrayal of Tarleton in the film Amazing Grace is true to life in that respect.Cloptonson (talk) 15:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have located an account of the wounding in an online essay by Janie B. Cheaney, which I have used as citation. It occurred at the Battle of Guilford Courthouse, late in the war.  For the moment I have decided to leave it where I put it rather than try to move it into the paragraph where the battle is summarily mentioned.Cloptonson (talk) 06:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

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Church Massacre
The church massacre in the film was not based upon something the Nazi's did two hundred years later on another continent, but I contend is based upon and closely resembles an actual event during the American Revolution. It is based upon an infamous event where American militia under the command of Colonel David Williamson massacred the peaceful Moravian Indians at Gnadenhuetten in the fall of 1781. BradMajors 15:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Any cites for that having been the origin of the event in the film? Otherwise, it's just OR. -- Orange Mike 16:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the current article does not have any cites that this event is based upon Oradour-sur-Glane. Yes, there do exist references which state this event is based upon Oradour-sur-Glane and other references which state it is based upon Gnadenhuetten. However, I believe this event more closely resembles Gnadenhuetten.  There is currently no article in the Wiki on Gnadenhuetten, but I will eventually add one if no one else does.  There do exist articles elsewhere on Gnadenhuetten. BradMajors 17:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has an article on the Gnadenhutten massacre; you may have missed it because of the tricky spelling. In my opinion, the church atrocity in The Patriot doesn't closely resemble Gnadenhutten, where the victims were bludgeoned to death rather than burned alive. I would be surprised if the filmmakers of The Patriot ever heard of the Gnadenhutten massacre. Some film critics, like at salon, obviously felt that the scene resembled the Nazi atrocity, which is why we can report it here. Our own analysis of what the scene most closely resembles has no relevance on Wikipedia. Personally, I think it far more likely that the scene was simply borrowed from a nearly identical one in First Knight, because Hollywood hacks don't study history; they study other movies. But this is just my guess, and of course it cannot go in the article unless a reliable source has published the theory. —Kevin Myers 16:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is important to point out that locking people inside a building and burning it has been used extensively for tyrannical military commanders in other works. This doesn't make them "Hollywood Hacks" necessarily. It is just a good way to make people look evil through symbolism (fire, imprisonment) and deed (massacre of innocents). Similar scenes are in Disney's Hunchback and the book Everything is Illuminated. 68.48.164.97 (talk) 15:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well there are churches in South Carolina listed as having been burned during the Revolution. https://www.amazon.com/Churches-Carolina-Burned-American-Revolution/dp/1502305275 I don't know how long that link will work but it is an Amazon page for a book written by a pair of men who collected a list of churches burned during the Revolution in Southg Carolina. They contend there were no women burned in churches.

And there is Rebecca Motte who offered American soldiers the means to burn down her house when it was occupied by the British. Accounts vary as Wikipedia says her house was destroyed and other accounts that say the fire was extinguished by combined American and British soldiers after the Brits had surrendered.2600:1700:6D90:79B0:D88F:3FE6:8B17:FB6A (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

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Military service history
This article could use some loving attention from someone who understands the organization and practices of the British military in that era. There seem to be errors and inconsistencies and misleading statements that are rooted in a lack of this background.

I just corrected a bit of the promotion history - the article said he was “promoted” to brigade major, which is not a rank. The archived newspaper linked as the source for his promotion to captain shows that he was promoted directly from ensign to captain, skipping lieutenant. How unusual was that? Does it deserve comment?

The article says that he purchased his commission in 1775, then did not have to purchase higher commissions thanks to his abilities. However, I don’t think that’s correct, because purchase of ranks was abolished in 1771 in the Cardwell Reforms. Most likely, either he didn’t purchase his initial commission at all, or he was one of the very last to do so, and the reason he didn’t purchase his higher ranks was not his ability, it was that the system had been abolished. I’m not correcting the article because I don’t know which explanation is the case. Isomorphic (talk) 13:13, 11 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The Cardwell Reforms came in the late nineteenth century. The purchase system was alive and well in the American War of Independence and for almost a hundred years thereafter. Binabik80 (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2021 (UTC)


 * You are correct regarding his apparent jump in rank. The Gazette states that Cornet (not Ensign) Tarleton became a Captain. I don’t think it was  unusual for an officer with money to pass through a rank on paper only. But there would still be a record.


 * Since he joined as a gentleman volunteer, it is possible that his rank prior to becoming captain was unofficial, but I am speculating. Someone needs to read the sources: British sources by British authors, to find facts, not smearing. Somewhere I saw a reference to him having kept a journal.


 * I propose one change: remove the qualification “Lieutenant” in parentheses. His rank was Cornet. While the modern equivalent would be Sub-Lieutenant, that is the subject of a different article.


 * As for the helmet, it is covered later in the article.

Humphrey Tribble (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I feel pretty silly about mixing up the 18th and 19th centuries.

I’ll defer to the judgment of others on the rank questions, I just wanted to flag that it needed attention. Isomorphic (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

John Tarleton
The two edits 2021 Nov 8 apparently just use more words to say that John Tarleton was a merchant involved in the slave trade. If there's more to it than that please leave an edit summary, a talk entry and perhaps a reference or quotation. In any case, this article is about Banastre Tarleton, so the detail should probably go in the article about his father. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

American cousins fighting on the other side
This is interesting,, and would certainly be notable. Unfortunately, it isn't mentioned by Knight or Scotti. The Kemp sketches are qualified with: "Please note that typographical and factual errors have not been corrected from the original sketches. The biographies have been scanned from the original typescripts, a process that sometimes allows for mistakes in the new text. Researchers should verify the accuracy of the texts' contents through other sources before quoting in publications." The different spelling of Jeremiah Tarlton's surname and the misspelling of Banastre Tarleton are not reassuring. There was a Tarleton family in the east—Massachusetts sticks in my mind—which might confuse the question. I considered whether the sentence could be modified to say "some distant cousins" but that would require just as much verification. Therefore I have removed your addition, but would be pleased if it could be verified by another source and the genealogy. Thanks for your effort. I support improving the article by showing Banastre Tarleton as a real person rather than his usual portrayal as a cartoonish villain. Can you provide another reference? Humphrey Tribble (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I couldn't agree more, it's important to share context which does not contribute to the cartoonish character. There is a similar ongoing issue with General Anthony Wayne. I did some digging and still can't find a silver bullet. There is a family book from 1900 archived on numerous sites by a C.W. Tarleton. However, I can't find sources to support his book. There is another archive site linking all Tarletons until they moved to the US called "Who Were the Nuns?" For example is cuts off after various branches settled in different states. It's reasonable to speculate Jeremiah's branch could be linked here from Maryland and the founder of Tarleton State University John Tarleton as well. I'll let you know if I find more sources. Draper051 (talk) 20:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

War crimes
User:Brough87 is disagreeing with the fact that part of Tarleton's actions were called "war crimes". He denies it, with as argument "How can one commit a war crime before the concept of war crime even existed?"

I disagree with that argument but do not want to start an editwar. Please give your opinions. The Banner talk 22:53, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The idea that you hold historical figures to the standards of modern-day international law seems to be silly; the fact that hundreds of years have passed since the events occured adds further complexity to the matter. To assert that Banastre Tarleton is guilty of a war crime, not only means that you believe guilt is determined simply by accusation, but also that you are in favour of Ex post facto law. For the sake of your own editorial consistency, what other historical figures are you going to declare a war criminal? Saladin for his execution of Raynald of Châtillon when he was a prisoner (in breech of the Geneva convention)? What about Shah Ismail I for his various conflicts with the Ottomans? For the sake of WP's intellectual credibility, let us apply contemporary law to contemporary figures. Brough87 (talk) 00:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The point about accusation vs proof is valid but the ex post facto argument is absurd. killing men who have surrendered has been understood to be wrong for millenia. Rape of women during war has earned prosecutorial attitudes for just as long a time.2600:1700:6D90:79B0:D88F:3FE6:8B17:FB6A (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I read a lot in Wikipedia articles about violations of the rules of war. But nowhere are these supposed rules documented. Prior to the first Geneva convention, the rules seem to rely on “common practice”, but that is a rather vague source. One person cited the book of Deuteronomy as a source for some rules! Humphrey Tribble (talk) 02:41, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Tarleton village
Approx 20 miles north of Liverpool on the Lancashire coast is an old village named Tarleton and within the village is a small housing estate called Banistre Court. Maybe a connection? 90.240.184.143 (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * A distant connection. The source says the surnames Tarleton and Banastre have existed in the area for hundreds of years.
 * “Bannistre Court” (two Ns, one A) exists but the name most likely arises from the old family name rather than the famous Banastre Tarleton.
 * I have been working on the names and this is probably worth a mention. Thanks for the lead.
 * Humphrey Tribble (talk) 00:15, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Harried
This may simply be an inaccurate choice of words. It might be said that Marion’s militia harried the British and Loyalist forces. However, I don’t think Marion harried the British Legion. Rather, Marion evaded the attempts of Banastre Tarleton to catch him. Unless someone can come up with a reference to the contrary, I propose to change the word to “evaded“. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 08:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Places named for him
I have cleaned up this section, noting several items which lack references. For example, the ship called Banastre might just as well have been named for Banastre Parker, the father of Thomas Tarleton’s wife. Citation needed! “Possibly named for him“ isn’t good enough. unless the reference given there is out a direct connection to the Tarleton Nursery School, I will delete it. The Tarleton Square apartments in Charlottesville have no apparent connection with Banastre Tarleton. More likely, it is named after Tarleton’s Oak, as is the Tarleton Oak Service station. Therefore I have deleted it. “Tarleton’s Oak” might be an addition to the list, but requires verification. Humphrey Tribble (talk) 02:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)