Talk:Bandura

Disambiguation?
Possible candidate for disambiguation? A search for 'Bandura' will bring a person here if they meant 'Albert Bandura'.

Wording

 * Contemporary instruments have up to 64 strings tuned chromatically from C-a.

I don't know much about music, but is this clear? I don't know whether it means "from C to A", "From C major to A minor", or just "From C minor a". Nice photo, by the way. &mdash;Michael Z. 2005-05-2 23:11 Z 

I second the motion to merge. You may read a bit of elucidation of KOBZA vs. BANDURA nomenclature at http://polyhymnion.org/torban RT

Merging Kobza and Bandura

 * Oppose. Kobza and Bandura are two different instrments. Difference is biggger than difference between violin and Double bass which are in two different articles. Radomil talk 30 June 2005 15:22 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Reading the two articles, it's clear that they are different instruments. Wesley 18:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. They are different instruments, altough one term was used as a synonym. Bandurist (talk) 12:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
I second the motion to merge. You may read a bit of elucidation of KOBZA vs. BANDURA nomenclature at http://polyhymnion.org/torban Generally modern bandura (i.e. post 1900) are entirely ignorant of their instrument's actual history. RT

The impression I've always had is that a kobza is a more primitive instrument, or more primitive version of the same instrument, and has been replaced over time by the bandura. I also think that kobzar is the old name, but has become more-or-less interchangable with banduryst (i.e. recent kobzari mostly play the bandura). I'll see what I can find in my library. —Michael Z. 2005-06-30 17:40 Z 


 * On Kobza vs Bandura: Michael's explanation seems to suggest that it is like fiddle and violin (Fiddle redirects to Violin in WP). I am no specialist, so I am just interpreting the explanation.


 * On Kobzar vs Banduryst (Bandurist), my feeling is that these are the words with different flavor. Banduryst is a musician, who plays Bandura. Kobzar, not only plays an instrument but is a particular character in Ukrainian ethnography. -Irpen June 30, 2005 17:51 (UTC)
 * A kobzar can be a lirnyk, bandurist or kobza player. What distinguishes him from players of these instruments is his professional training and his social status. Not all bandurists are kobzars, and not all kobza players are kobzars Bandurist (talk) 12:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I should amend my comments. Kobzars and bandurists play the kobza and bandura, respectively.  The kobzars are also the representative characters of the Cossack bardic tradition, but I have seen them referred to as bandurists as well.


 * Regarding the instruments, Volodymyr Kubijovy&#269;, Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopædia, vol. 1, p. 379 talks about folk instruments.


 * The kobza was the predecessor of the bandura. [...] The bandura is generally accepted as the more modern version of the kobza.


 * It describes both. Elsewhere, this volume refers to "kobza (lute)".  It also describes several other instruments.  I'll sit down and expand these articles, but it may not happen for a week or two.  —Michael Z. 2005-06-30 18:44 Z 

Since they are different instruments, different physically as well as in style of play, I oppose the merge. If they were to be merged, it would have to be into some third article that included both, maybe something like Ukrainian folk musical instruments or something, that discussed these two instruments and probably others besides. Wesley 18:30, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

From a recent addition to Torban, it's implied that kobza-bandura is an old style of kobza, but that the modern bandura is a different instrument. The sources I have are a bit vague too vague on this. Anybody know? —Michael Z. 2005-11-15 21:07 Z 

Mayby this will help You:
 * History of bandura
 * Three types of bandura
 * History of kobza
 * Radomil talk 12:02, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

There are definite differences between the different types of banduras and the different types kobzas. The main difference is that in the various kobzas the strings along the neck are pressed to the fingerboard although there do rarely exist banduras that have strings pressed to the neck.

Regarding the terminology of kobzar - Not all bandura or kobza players were kobzars. The term is specifically used as a label for itinerant blind village musicians irrespective of the fact that he played a bandura, kobza or lira and encompasses not just the instrument they played but the particular repertoire the performed and a host of other minutae. The court musicians of the Russian and Polish courts who played these instruments are not refered to as kobzars, nor were members of the Ukrainian Gentry such as Mazepa or Paliy who played the instruments refered to as kobzars. Contemporary conservatory trained musicians of the academic school find the term somewhat insulting because of it's connotations of poor musicianship.

These instruments has undersone significant development in the 20th century. Much of its history has been distorted in Soviet texts because of political expediancy. Soviet epitaphs are disappearing but few studies have been done reanalysising source materials, although this is gradually happening.

In more recent times there is a growing movement for playing on authentic folk versions of the instruments which is quickly growing. This movement unfortunately is not reflected in this article.

In the contemporary music scene there are 1) the authentic players (playing on instruments as authentic to the 19th century examples as possible) - with wooden pegs 20 or so diatonically tuned strings performing authentic repertoire. 2) the academic performers - playing on scientifically redesigned instruments having 64 strings or more with a harp-like mechanism and playing classical transcriptions and jazz works. 3) the pseudo-kobzars who play on contemporary academic instruments stylized music based on romantic perceptions of the authentic kobzars. This article seems to relate only to the third group.\ (V. Mishalow)

Presentation of photos?
Is the following a better presentation? Bobanni (talk) 06:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)   Image:Bandura classical.jpg|A classical (starosvits'ka) bandura made by Serhiy Rad'ko (1982) Image:Lviv-1964.JPEG|Lviv concert bandura designed by V. Herasymenko (1963) Image:Horhul'.JPEG|Khotkevych's Kharkiv-style bandura made by V. Horhul (1928) Image:Bazhul-.JPEG|A Kharkiv-style bandura made by Fedir Deriazhny in Australia (1964) Image:Skilar-Kyiv-Khrakiv.JPEG|Kyiv-Kharkiv bandura made by Ivan Skliar - (1968) Image:HerasymenkoKharkiv5a.JPG|Herasymenko's Kyiv-Kharkiv bandura (2001) Image:Kar-orch-ban.jpeg|Picollo, Prima and Bass Kharkiv style banduras (1930) made by I. Kruhovyj

Bobanni (talk) 06:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

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