Talk:Bani Zeid al-Gharbia/Archive 1

Two Bani Zeids
There are apparently two municipalities, Bani Zeid "West" (pop. 5515) and Bani Zeid East (pop. 5,083), in addition to Qarawat Bani Zeid (pop. 2,915). The websites for both municipalities appear to be offline, with no archive on archive.org. (http://www.banizeid-sharq.org/ and http://www.banizeid-gharb.org/ ). This article appears to be referring to the Western municipality. My numbers are from (http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf p.112) I've added Bani Zeid ash-Sharqiya to the RB template. I've found the website for West Bani Zaid Municipality: http://www.west-bzm.org/ Apparently East Bani Zeid comprises of three villages. One source said they are Abwein, Arura, and Mazari an-Nubani, but then (http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_PCBS/Downloads/book1487.pdf p.112) lists Abwein separately --Fjmustak (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: Abwein seceded from East Bani Zeid (and the union was possibly dissolved between the other two)... I'll remove it from the template until it is further resolved. --Fjmustak (talk) 22:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the sources. It's the 2007 populations right? This article is on Bani Zeid al-Gharbiya and I've seen Bani Zeid Sharqiya listed somewhere. But, I agree, we should wait till we're clear if it still exists or not. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:58, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Abwein is listed separately, but Bani Zeid al-Sharqiya is also listed and is the document is from 2007, it appears. Should we start a new article on the East and merge 'Arura and Mazari an-Nubani, or keep them as independent articles? --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:18, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I read a report on the mergers of Palestinian towns ( here) from the ministry of local gov't. It mentions that there were four such municipalities in RB governorate: Zeitouna, Ittihad (which we don't have an article for yet, but we do for its constituent villages... I added it to the template), and the two Bani Zeids.  It mentioned that the merger in East Bani Zeid fell apart and Abwein separated (because they didn't like the election results)...  It implies that the other two remained part of the municipality, and the PCBS report supports this theory.  I also read a news article dated Feb 2008 that maintains that the two towns are one municipality.  I suggest creating an article for Bani Zeid East and either merging Arura and Nubani into it (like Bani Zeid West and Zaitouna), or keep the articles separate (like those of Ittihad). Either way, the articles should be somewhat consistent --Fjmustak (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll start the article by merging 'Arura and al-Nubani, kind of like Shaghur and most of the Palestinian locality mergers in Israel. What do you think? Also, I think we should keep this article named as Bani Zeid since it's also discussing the history of the tribe and is referred to as "Bani Zeid" not "Bani Zeid al-Gharbiya" by the PCBS. That's cool? --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me... Maybe a disambig at the top mentioning "Qarawat Bani Zeid" and "Bani Zeid Al-Sharqiyya"? I had the same idea in mind (like Shaghur).  I like how Shaghur has separate sections for each of the villages, as they are unique, and each has its own history.--Fjmustak (talk) 00:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll start it now. Tell me what you think needs to be done after it's started. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Great job!  From what info I was able to find online is that local elections took place in 2005 for a unified municipality (Abwein, Arura, and Nubani), and that the current mayor of Abwein, Fatima Sihweil won.  According to the .doc reference, it looks as if it fell apart right after the election.  I was not able to find anything that explicitly states what happened.  --Fjmustak (talk) 06:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you know East Bani Zeid's official website? --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Guerin -visit in 1863 (French-speakers needed..)
Guerin visited in 1863, this is what he writes about Deir Ghassana  (p. 150):

A l'ouest-nord-ouest, un autre village, également situé sur une montagne, se montre à mes yeux, dominant des pentes ombragées par de magnifiques oliviers. Il s'appelle Deir er-Rhassanek, Je l'ai visité en 1863. Sa population est de neuf cents habitants. Les maisons sont construites en pierres rouges et blanches; celles du cheikh et de plusieurs membres de sa famille, celle aussi qui est réservée aux étrangers (el-medhafek) et quelques autres sont grandes et assez bien bâties. Une mosquée surtout y attire les regards par la régularité de ses assises alternativement blanches et noires. Une certaine aisance semble régner dans ce vllage, dont le cheikh exerce une sorte de droit de suzeraineté sur une quinzaine de villages ou hameaux voisins. A l'ouest-nord-ouest de Deir er-Rhassaneh, sur une montagne très-rapprochée, s'élève une koubbeh consacrée à un santon vénéré dans les environs sous le nom de Cheikh Kaouas.

....which through http://translate.google.com becomes:

A west-northwest, another village, also located on a mountain, watch my eyes, dominant slopes shaded by beautiful trees. It's called Deir er-Rhassanek, I visited in 1863. Its population is nine hundred inhabitants. The houses are built in red stone and white, those of the Sheikh and several members of his family, that also which is reserved for foreigners (al-medhafek) and some others are large and fairly well built. A mosque especially attracts attention by the regularity of its foundations alternating black and white. There seems to be some comfort in this vllage, including Sheikh has a sort of right of suzerainty over a dozen neighboring villages or hamlets. A west-northwest of Deir er-Rhassaneh on a mountain very close, rises a Koubbeh devoted to a santon revered around under the name of Sheikh Kaouas.

About Beit Rima he wrote (p. 151):

A vingt minutes au sud du même village, j'en distingue un troisième, pareillement visité par moi en 1863, et appelé Beit-Rima. Assis sur un plateau élevé, dont les pentes sont couvertes de figuiers et d'oliviers, il renferme trois cent cinquante habitants. Les maisons, comme celles de Deir er-Rhassaneh, sont construites avec des pierres régulières offrant des assises, les unes rouges, les autres blanches.

....which through http://translate.google.com becomes:

Twenty minutes south of the same village, I distinguished a third, similarly visited by me in 1863, and called Beit Rima. Sitting on a high plateau, the slopes are covered with fig and olive trees, it contains three hundred and fifty inhabitants. The houses, like those of Deir er-Rhassaneh are built with stones with regular foundation, one red, the other white.

Could someone with a knowledge of French please translate properly? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:00, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've run into this same problem with the Syrian village articles, there being several French-language books on the subject. I'll see if there's a place on wiki where we could request a proper translation, but if not I think we could pretty much make out what Guerin is saying. Nice finds! --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have asked Nishidani; hope he can help. Otherwise we can always wait until Tiamut is back; I know she also speaks French. In the meantime: collect the sources...some French-speaker is bound to come by...sometime! What is interesting about Guerin (besides his population-estimates), is the clear (?) description of Ablaq houses, in both villages. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, Moshe Sharon mentions the ablaq style in the houses (of Deir Ghassaneh) and says that indicates Mamluk-era history. Guerin's notes seems to imply that Beit Rima was also around during the Mamluk era. Guerin also further confirms that Deir Ghassaneh was a leading village in the vicinity. Hopefully Nishidani could help and I've also requested a translation from WikiProject France. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It does not look as if Sharon had access/used the Guerin-books(?). Also; Beit Rima (and of course Deir Ghassana) were quite big in 1596 compared to surrounding villages, I think that indicates that they had been around for some time/were important even then. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I just looked and apparently Sharon did use Guerin's information on the ablaq-style homes of alternating red and white stone, the well-built mosque with alternating white and black stone, and that the village shaykh had a sort of suzerainty over a dozen villages and hamlets. See Page 36-37. Also, do you have the 1596 information on the villages? I thought they weren't mentioned in the census. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:16, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, sorry I cannot see that page (what page you can see depend on the country you are in, apparently), but I´ll accept your word for it! And yeah, sure they were mentioned in 1596 (it is in the "Demographics"-part). Dayr Gassana is z334 on p.120, while Bayt Rima is z342 on p.121, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow. I don't known how I missed that. I think I'll move the info to the Ottoman era section and keep demographics about the more modern-day stats. Also, could you add the additional 1596 stuff like what the villages paid taxes on and what district they were part of. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I´ll add the "standard-1596-info" to the "Demographics"-part, then leave it to you to move out the part about paid taxes etc. And I´ll remove the www.geocities.com/-ref (not really acceptable in a GA, is it?), Cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:37, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I already moved it to the Ottoman era section. We could definitely remove the geocities ref from that particular snippet, but I would like to keep it for the mention of al-Idrisi's 1492 visit. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:41, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

That visit was not in 1492 (as he lived 1099–1165), & I would love to have a better source, but yeah; lets keep it for now. Ok, 1596-data coming up in a few minutes...Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll try to find a different source because clearly Geocities isn't reliable enough for a GA. Thanks for adding the 1596 info, I'll start expanding from ARIJ and add the information Sharon provides on a couple of historic buildings in Deir Ghassaneh. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:38, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

A l'ouest-nord-ouest, un autre village, également situé sur une montagne, se montre à mes yeux, dominant des pentes ombragées par de magnifiques oliviers. Il s'appelle Deir er-Rhassanek, Je l'ai visité en 1863. Sa population est de neuf cents habitants. Les maisons sont construites en pierres rouges et blanches; celles du cheikh et de plusieurs membres de sa famille, celle aussi qui est réservée aux étrangers (el-medhafek) et quelques autres sont grandes et assez bien bâties. Une mosquée surtout y attire les regards par la régularité de ses assises alternativement blanches et noires. Une certaine aisance semble régner dans ce vllage, dont le cheikh exerce une sorte de droit de suzeraineté sur une quinzaine de villages ou hameaux voisins. A l'ouest-nord-ouest de Deir er-Rhassaneh, sur une montagne très-rapprochée, s'élève une koubbeh consacrée à un santon vénéré dans les environs sous le nom de Cheikh Kaouas.


 * West north-west (of this), another village, also located on a mountain, one overlooking slopes that lay shaded by magnificent olive-trees, came into view, It is called Deir er-Rhassanek, and I visited it in 1863. It has a population of 900. Its houses are built of white and red stone; the houses of the sheikh and of several members of his family, and some others, including one set aside for outsiders (el-medhafek),  are large and quite solidly built. A mosque in particular draws one's attention by virtue of the regularity of its alternating white and black foundations.  The village, where the sheikh exercises a kind of sovereign right over some fifteen odd villages or hamlets in the neighbouring area, gives the impression of a certain tranquil affluence (aisance). To the  west north-west of Deir er-Rhassaneh, on a hill close by, a koubeh consecrated to a saint revered in the district under the name of Sheikh Kaouas stands out.

A vingt minutes au sud du même village, j'en distingue un troisième, pareillement visité par moi en 1863, et appelé Beit-Rima. Assis sur un plateau élevé, dont les pentes sont couvertes de figuiers et d'oliviers, il renferme trois cent cinquante habitants. Les maisons, comme celles de Deir er-Rhassaneh, sont construites avec des pierres régulières offrant des assises, les unes rouges, les autres blanches.
 * Twenty minutes south of the same village, I distinguished a third one, called Beit Rima, which I had also visited in 1863. Lying on a high plateau, whose slopes are covered with fig and olive trees, it contains three hundred and fifty inhabitants. The houses, like those of Deir er-Rhassaneh, are built with regular stone masonry, some with red,  others with white, foundations.


 * Perfect. Thanks a lot Nish, I might be coming to you sometime later for some other translations regarding some Syrian villages. I'll start adding this info to the article now. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Names
When I list data from different census or authors, I always use the original name that the place appeared as. Eg, in the 1922 census, Beit Rima appeared as "Bait Rema". I don´t mind that it gets changed into a "standardised  form", but the original name ought to be mentioned/kept somewhere. If not directly, then possibly as a redir? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I restored the names, but put them in quotations. In Arabic there's no alternative spellings, only in the non-Arabic translations are there different spellings mainly based on how the sources determine the pronunciation of the name. I also added the Bussow, Carter and Tamari sources to the Bibliography. Bussow's book on Hamidian Palestine has turned out to be a rich source on Bani Zeid/Deir Ghassaneh and numerous other places in Palestine. Very valuable source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the Bussow-book is indeed interesting. I have also added the 1870 Socin data; we really should use that source more! They use "S" for "Seelen" =Souls, and apparently only men had that ;)   To get the proper population estimate we have to double the number, but I leave that to the reader.
 * Also, I found in the Bussow-book that they quoted Wilson, C. T. (1906): Peasant Life in the Holy Land, perhaps we could use the direct reference to pp. 78?  Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Btw, I read Mourid Barghouti´s I Saw Ramallah a few years ago, and as I recall it he also described Deir Ghassana. I have ordered it, and will add it (if it is of interest) when I have reread it. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:14, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * We could use the direct ref for Wilson's book. And yes, I Saw Ramallah was quoted a few times in Salih Tamari's article on Deir Ghassaneh and the Barghouti family so it might have some additional information on Bani Zeid. On a slight side note, we're probably going to have to expand the article on the Barghoutis and perhaps create new articles on Sheikh Salih al-Barghouti and Umar Salih al-Barghouti eventually. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have the book and will look for relevant things. Zerotalk 00:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice, thank you Zero. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:40, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Sharon
I see that Sharon sometimes writes that "no mention exists of the place in literature" (see eg. Abwein ), or, like here "no mention in early Arabic sources". The problem is, like the Abwein  case shows: he can be very wrong. I suggest we take that out, as all it actually says, is that Sharon has not found any literature, not that there isn´t any! Cheers,Huldra (talk) 23:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, perhaps. But in the case of Deir Ghassaneh, I'm not sure if Sharon is completely wrong. Although there are clearly Mamluk-era remains in both of Bani Zeid's villages, there doesn't appear to be any mention by Mamluk or Ayyubid era historians/geographer/chroniclers. The only thing we've got so far is the mention by al-Idrisi, which is currently backed by what would probably be considered an unreliable source. Unfortunately, I've yet to find any other sources supporting the statement. I think it's best if we just attribute Sharon's claim instead of removing it altogether. On the other hand, we might have to remove the Idrisi statement, like you previously suggested, before nominating the article, which I've neglected lately. I just want to add more culture to the "culture" section, expand the Modern era history, and maybe do a bit of reorganizing. I'll e-mail a truly bountiful source on Deir Ghassaneh (by Suad Amiry) either tonight or tomorrow. It has a lot on the village's culture, Ottoman-era history, its architecture, it's old town and its families. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, attributing it to Sharon is fine with me.  I wonder if it is not a case of the place changing name... and we simply don´t  know (yet) what it was called in early Arabic period. Something like  Al-Shaykh Saad.  After all, there is no indication that the place was actually abandoned, at any time. (Incidentally, I now have a hard-copy of the first Sharon-book, "A". If you want anything from the book; just ask. (I´ll try to get the whole set, eventually, when/if I can get them for a half-decent price.))
 * Oh, and Deir Ghassana was a socallled "throne village", or  "Qura Karasi". Wouldn´t it have been great if we could have done a series, of some sort, of all the "Throne Villages"? I´m just dreaming... :)  Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It could have had a different name, but so far none of the sources on Deir Ghassneh, which are surprisingly plentiful, have stated as much. Other than the Biblical association with Saredah that is. That's great you have the book! I'll let you know as we go, thankfully there's a good amount from "A" online. Those Sharon books are wiki-gold. I was going to email you Suad Amiry's long piece on Deir Ghassaneh, but I can't find the link. Is there another way I could send it to you if you're interested? Warning though, it's a pretty hefty pdf file (60 MB) and I don't think the copyright would let me upload it on Wiki. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:51, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I had to disable my email because of Grawp-abuse; try again now! Also, all the other Sharon-books are available through library: just ask.  (Actually, I think they are thinking about making them available online, through logging in; I´ll check. Yes; I love the references!)  Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, do you know how many volumes he has? Also, which library? And unfortunately, wiki-email doesn't allow you to attach files. apparently :( --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:34, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have just sent you an email with my email-adress. I don´t think any outside my country would get electronic access to the libraries, but I will check. Also, Sharon has now gotten to "G" (Yepp: that is "Gaza"for you!), from A, B-C, D-F, "addendum", G. I linked them here. And I borrowed them all some time ago; returned them ages ago. And you can check here for the normal obscene prices of those books. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 01:05, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: I have not updated that "sources-page" for 3 years, so there might be more versions available on google today. Alas, at least in my country, "G" is still the latest one in the series in the libraries.  Huldra (talk) 01:13, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Just found Sharon, 2009, G, with preview! The headline is misleading; look at the content! Huldra (talk) 01:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)