Talk:Bank of Ayudhya

Brand & article title
A few things here:
 * 1) The bank's full name in Thai follows the full name of the ancient capital, Krung Si Ayutthaya ("Krungsri Ayudhya" according to the bank's spelling). The bank's name has previously been shortened both as "Krungsri" and "Ayudhya". However, the "Krungsri" part isn't included in the English name of the company, "Bank of Ayudhya".
 * 2) The bank has been using "Krungsri" as its brand since 2014. While the rebranding might have confused a few people back then, three years have passed and it probably no longer deserves mention in the first sentence. Maybe somewhere in a later section. Is there a WP:reliable source that backs this point though?
 * 3) I'm not sure whether the article title should follow the company name ("Bank of Ayudhya") or its preferred brand name ("Krungsri"). Normally the brand would be a shortened form of the company name, so there's not much difference, but here it's not the case in English. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

--
 * 1. Correct so far.
 * 2. You want a reliable source? I will find you one. Anecdotally, I have two sources: a) me, and b) the fellow who just tried to change the name of the article to "Krungsri" because, among other things, he claimed "Bank of Ayuthya" does not appear in the 2016 annual report (it does, 132 times).
 * 3. A redirect from Krungsri is sufficient. The WP article is "Coca-Cola" not "Coke". Both SET and the BOT list the bank as Bank of Ayuthya, not Krungsri.
 * Best, Seligne (talk) 21:12, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I think you made a typo in the latest edit. The bank's spelling is Ayudhya, RTGS is Ayutthaya. There's no "Ayuthya". I think the explanation of the name should include the fact that "Krungsri" is shortened from the bank's full Thai name, which is in turn taken after the city. --Paul_012 (talk) 21:22, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * At thai-language.com I get RTGS as "krungsiayutya". And re: Ayudhya, you are correct, there is no "t" in the name. Seligne (talk) 21:43, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * At, gulp, Thai Visa, a quick search found one poor soul wondering, "Why is it also called Krungsri bank, and which name do you use when transferring money to a branch?" Perhaps it's not a reliable source but I think indicative of the confusion that exists, particularly for non-residents. Seligne (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Regarding RTGS, automated systems such as that of thai-language.com are poor sources for transcriptions, especially for names of proper nouns that don't appear in the dictionary. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * 2. I'm the user (you for some reason call "fellow") who moved the page to "Krungsri". Don't condescendingly use me as a source for your claim that the re-branding is confusing; because it's perfectly clear.


 * You claim in an edit that "Krungsri" is "colloquial" (i.e. informal). It is not. The bank uses "Krungsri", not "Bank of Ayudhya", almost everywhere.


 * My PDF-reader search erroneously told me that there was no instances of "Bank of Ayudhya" in the latest annual report. Thanks for pointing out that mistake. According to my new (hopefully more correct) PDF search, "Bank of Ayudhya" is mentioned 137 times in the annual report, while "Krungsri" is mentioned a whopping 1 561 times (not counting the front page, where "Bank of Ayudhya" isn't even mentioned).


 * 3. It's extremely inappropriate that "Krungsri" is not in the heading of the bank's Wikipedia page, or even in the first sentence of the opening paragraph, since "Krungsri", and not "Bank of Ayudhya", is in the bank's logo, URL, the front page of the latest annual report, plus loads of other places. In the opening pages of the latest annual report, in the messages from both the CEO and Chairman and Vice Chairman, the bank is referred to as "Krungsri" and never "Bank of the Ayudhya". But, weirdly, you claim in an edit the two names are used "interchangeably".


 * "Krungsri" should be the main name of the bank's Wikipedia page, with "Bank of Ayudhya" mentioned in brackets in the opening paragraph (as in my edit that you didn't like), or in a separate paragraph, lower down, about the name of the bank. Your edits just add to, instead of clearing up, any confusion regarding the name of the bank.


 * Since your edits seem to be almost exclusively based on personal antipathy towards the name "Krungsri", what is the reason for your aversion to the bank's rebranded name? Aikclaes (talk) 05:00, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I've been asked to comment here as an independent experienced user. I see there's some uncertainty over which name to use for this article, and that is understandable, as a few moments research indicates that both Krungsri and Bank of Ayudhya are used by reliable sources:, , , , , , etc. What we do in such circumstances is use both names in the lead - see WP:OTHERNAMES. If we have information which would be helpful to readers as to why there is more than one name, we also mention this - perhaps one name is the official name: Brixton Academy, Big Ben, or perhaps it's a sponsorship name: EFL Championship, etc. There are many reasons. If the name changed on a certain date it can be helpful to mention that as well. When a topic has more than one name, or when a name has changed, there is generally a discussion among the active editors to decide which is the more appropriate name to use as the primary name, and which to use as the redirected name. The policy and advice and guideline for which name to choose is at Article titles, specifically at WP:NAMECHANGES. What guides us in which name to choose, is generally the name which is most commonly used by reliable sources after the name was changed. In cases where there doesn't seem to be any one version of the name that is dominant, then we stick with the existing name, as existing links will be using that name, and most readers are likely to be familiar with the older, more established name. My suggestion here is for users active on this article to search through sources themselves to see which name is used more often - Krungsri or Bank of Ayudhya. My own research was brief, but I couldn't see Krungsri being used significantly more than Bank of Ayudhya, at this point, to justify a change in name. If the decision is to keep the article at Bank of Ayudhya (which appears to be the right decision), then it would be worth revisiting the issue periodically - perhaps every six months, to see if the Krungsri name becomes more common. I hope this helps. Please ping me, or leave a note on my talkpage if more feedback is required.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  18:48, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for you time and input, SilkTork. I find it strange, however, that your research gave you the impression that "Krungsri" is not used significantly more than "Bank of Ayudhya". May I ask where you looked? Because wherever I look – logo, URL, storefronts, ATMs, promotional material, bank cards – the company only uses "Krungsri". (Perform an image search and you will see.) The only place they use the name "Bank of Ayudhya" is on their website and annual report, but only in body text, never in large headlines.


 * It would be nice if the one user who prefers "Bank of Ayudhya" were to come back to this discussion, but s/he seems more interesting in just reverting the edits of those who don't agree with her/him. Aikclaes (talk) 17:52, 4 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I did a Google search of a variety of sources, some of which I link above - click on the numbers in this statement: "a few moments research indicates that both Krungsri and Bank of Ayudhya are used by reliable sources:, , , , , , etc." We tend to use published sources for our information on Wikipedia, and prefer secondary rather than primary sources. See Verifiability and Identifying reliable sources. See also Official names, Article titles, Manual of Style/Trademarks, and Naming conventions (companies). We don't necessarily use the name a company calls itself, or the way it styles its name - what matters is how reliable sources identify it. If most sources say Foo when talking about Fee, then we use the title Foo as that will most readily identify it for the majority of people. IF many (but not most) sources also mention Fee, then we include Fee in the lead section of the article. If only a few mention Fee, then we would use it in the main body of the article, but unlikely in the lead section.
 * It doesn't matter if the other person joins in the discussion. You can do the research yourself. Don't look at the bank's advertising material, look at published sources: newspapers, books, websites, etc. See what they are calling the bank, and bring your findings back here - link to your sources if they are online, or give name and publishing information if they are offline sources. Ping me again if you need further help.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I've done a little more research for you. It appears the rebranding was done in 2014 by a company called, funny enough "Rebrand". In a book published as recently as November 2016, the full name is still being used, though the author is aware of the recent rebranding of the colloquial name and mentions it. As recently as yesterday, Reuters was using the full bank name. And Bloomberg is using the full bank name today, and references two reports in Feb using the full bank name. And Moody's recent reports use the full bank name. While I am seeing a number of recent sources which use Bank of Ayudhya and Krungsri, and a number of reliable sources which just use Bank of Ayudhya, I'm not seeing any significant non-primary source which uses just Krungsri, and a search just for Krungsri will throw up results like these:, , among those for bank loyalty cards and other advertising. Strip out the advertising, and there appears to be few sources which say only Krungsri when talking about the Bank of Ayudhya. Please do your own research, as I am not taking sides here, but each time I look, the less appropriate I think it is that this article should be moved from its present title, though I do think it would benefit from mentioning in the lead that it was rebranded in 2014 to its colloquial name of Krungsri.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The information about the name change is already in the article, and cited to the same source I found. As the article reflects my own research, and the article title abides by our relevant policies and guidelines, which I have linked and explained, I can't see how much use I can be here. Please read the guidelines and policies I have linked, and please do the appropriate research (look at published reliable sources not advertising by the bank). I think if you reflect on this for a day or two you'll come to an acceptance yourself that Bank of Ayudhya is the right name. Regards  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  21:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for you're input, SilkTork. I have taken everything you wrote to heart. I missed your links earlier about how the media refers to the bank. Sorry about that. I have made a recent edit which I hope will please everybody. Aikclaes (talk) 14:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Addition Of Citation
Hello Wikipedians,

Citation needs to get added in the Major developments and acquisitions section in the first point beside the word "strategic partners." Here is the citation link to get added as citation in the sentence "On 3 January 2007, Bank of Ayudhya (Krungsri) and GE Money, a global consumer financial services firm, became strategic partners."

Link : https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/bank-ayudhya-completes-acquisition-ge-capitals-consumer-finance-businesses-thailand

Please take out some time to check and consider my suggestion related to addition of citation. Prudent CAS (talk) 13:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)