Talk:Bannock (British and Irish food)/Archive 1

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Balep korkun ?
I question the need to include "balep korkun". It is just another type of bread that is somewhat similar to bannock. It does not really belong in this topic. If you want to include it, then every similar bread from hundreds of cultures should also be included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 (talk) 08:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Bannocks and Scones
I challenge the assertion in the opening paragraph that "in Scotland, the words bannock and scone are often used interchangeably." This goes against all my experience, having lived in Orkney and Edinburgh for some years. Moreover the first source listed for this paragraph states:

"When a Bannock is cut up into 4 quarters, each quarter is called a 'farl.'"

This directly contradicts the latter two sentences of the current intro. I am unable to check the other listed source for this paragraph, but frankly I question its relevance and authority on these issues. A Scottish book would surely be more authoritative in regards to Scottish bannocks.


 * I'm Scottish. I have never used the words scone and bannock interchangeably, and neither has anyone I know. Where the confusion may have arisen is that in Scotland griddle scones are often shaped into triangles Griddle Scones.  But a griddle scone is not a bannock--81.157.226.239 (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

One more thing - bannocks made from beremeal are usually called bere bannocks, not beremeal bannocks. --Thorf (talk) 04:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Bannocks are never referred to as scones which are a different thing entirely, I have lived all over Scotland and this has never been the case, a scone is a scone and a bannock is a bannock. Tattie scones look similar to bannocks but aren't bannocks and griddle scones look similar to bannocks but neither are they scones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcbscotland (talk • contribs) 08:43, 1 July 2018 (UTC)


 * They are very different here in northern England, too, and I've read the claim with puzzlement several times in the past, but, not being Scottish, I didn't dare challenge it. Thank you for putting it right.   Dbfirs  10:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Thickness of Bannock and Scones
The encyclopedia that anyone can edit says that scones are thicker than bannock, and bannock is thinner than scones. Perhaps we could be a wee bit more specific. Lou Sander 22:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... now it says a scone is thicker than a bannock in scone, and that they're the same thickness in bannock. I'd fix it, but I've eaten or seen neither. Udi Raz 18:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

How about a photo?
Just take your digital camera, photograph one, and upload it. We need to see what this delicious-sounding item looks like. Lou Sander 02:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment
COMMENT/QUESTION: If the oldest bannock was created at earliest in 1859 in Selkirk, then how is it possible that the Native North Americans "adopted" it in the 18th century? Someone please explain, thanks. Angus Campbell, Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada  —Preceding unsigned comment added by CambridgeBayWeather (talk • contribs) 15:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? That was from here. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 00:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply / Comment
I think that that should read the oldest "commercial" bannock was created in Selkirk. Or the oldest known bannock bakery. Bannocks, by that name, and essentially as currently made, are older. ( Wikipedia references Burns referring to bannocks - although the song says "Bannocks of barley" ). Dave of Eves (talk) 15:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Etymology
What is the etymology? Is it related to Bannock (tribe)? Badagnani (talk) 06:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC) The Bannock get their name from the bread; t he origin is ultiately Scots - Scots Gaelic or Scots English I couldn't say, though it's Gaelic-sounding (but so's Scots English...). Brought in by the fur companies, it's a "national food" of the First Nations and Metis people across WEstern Canada an the North, "as Indian as salmon" on the West Coast; particularly among the Metis, I'd think, because of the close Gaelic ties in that culture (and culture includes the home cooking...). I have many First Nations and half-Metis and non-status and other part-blood (stumbling for whatever polite term, non-constitutional Metis I guess) friends, and "Indianized whites" out in the bush country and small towns, who have a passion for it. I've heard that really strong eulachon grease smeared on a pan-hot slab of bannock is a real treat. Never had the chance to try it, sounds yummy, if fattening and by all reports like eating concentrated anchovy paste crossed with really really strong black caviar. Depends on the how they make the particular homebrew of grease, what's in it, how long they let it, er, "steep" "rot", really, but a controlled, spiced, rot, - any few recipes that this page might account for are only a fraction of t he various ways it's made/flavoured). I don't know if it's as important or common in indigenous life south of the border, ie..  in the Mountain States and Pacific Northwest States, though inland maybe so.  I'll poll a couple of native editors from that region and also some mail contacts I have.  Interesting that bannock caught on, and oats didn't - oatst Scots-tyle ,stick-to-your ribs gruel or porridge. great in cold weatehr ande actually versatile with meat and veggies as well as sweet stuff.  "oats ifs for horses" i remember hearing, though, though I cant' say when or where....maybe flour was just cheaper.  Introducing the recipe, come to think of it, may have been a sales tactic to encourage the sale of flour and cooking lard as trade goods; not quite as bad as introducing liquor, but looking at the fried-food/obesity and diabetes rates among First Nations maybe there's more to that than meets the eye. White, bleached flour too, stripped of nutrients....hm, and salt (ass in melass or lamelas _ molasses - and bags of sugar....). Not enough was known about heart disease in those times and Scots at e that way too, but...as if it set teh stage for the fat/salt/bleached/processed food diet.Bur that's original research so I'l leave it alone (here). it's tasty, but I prefer it with syrup or honey than fish ;-). Well, fish and honey, now we're talking....hot bannock's good with vanilla ice cream, too (and you can put bananas in the mix...soapberry (xoosum) froth/"Indian ice cream" makes a great dip...pit some of these foodstuffs aren't more common/abundant - they'd be hits in the gourmet markets. Nveer seen gourmet bannock though....).Skookum1 (talk) 07:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Definitely not Scots English because the word goes back hundreds of years before that existed.   D b f i r s   16:03, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Scots and English are two distinct languages. Please stop referring to Scots English. Mckay1402 (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Native loanwords and words
I t occurred to me while writing the above that Bannock as a word is going to turn up as a loanword in a number of indigenous languages, particularly in the Northwest of the continent, Pacific and North/Plains both, and there will be other words for it in languages that don't use bannock as the world - basically the languages throughout hte former HBC demesne, and wherever it spread byond to. Oh the one hand, the respective native phonology-forms of the bannock loans, and thebn the names as known/sourceable from the various First Nations/Native American/Alaska Native langauges, and/or Michif and Bungee etc. Would mak an interesting section-list. Like lasel and lateh - salt and tea - many French words in the Chinook Jargon are found as looawords in languges such as {{ Nuxalk and Carrier, but it's hard to say whether the loand was from CJ or directly from French; the same is true of the Gaelic origin here, it was a word the g French staff would have been using in the particularly working argot of French they are known to have been suing; it's not a CJ word, but it became current in several languags and cultures at once; it would be interesting to have all the IPA forms and any "first bannock" stories if any.

dubious addition

 * ''The wheat flour bannock is almost identical to the American traditonal biscuit when made from scratch, eaten at breakfast. There is a strong case that is developed from the bannock by early Scottish settlers

Uh, the traditional American biscuit isn't almost-deepfried as bannock is; a closer comparison would be to a greasy pancake IMO....Skookum1 (talk) 14:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The Shetland Bannock isnt deepfried at all, but can be baked Kunchan (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Scottish Bannocks aren't deep fried either. They are either baked or cooked on a griddle--81.157.226.239 (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Bad information, unreferenced
This is a pretty shaky article right now, so I added the "refimprove" tag. Some of the information seems downright incorrect, and there's only one minor reference. I'm not a bannock expert, but a little Googling gives references to traditional bannocks in Scotland and Wales. It doesn't seem like the Selkirk bannock was the first one. Also the Native American information seems incorrect. There is a tribe called Bannock, and lots of references to their flat breads. It doesn't seem likely that they picked this item up from the Scots. OK, ye Bannock Eaters, have at it! Lou Sander (talk) 16:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Bannock (tribe) tribe are also known as the Banate which may be a version/corruption of Panaiti. See Eastern Tribal Names in California. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 17:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * All the material above the "Indigenous Americans" section is now meticulously referenced. I removed the mention of "frybread," which is unreferenced and seems to pertain to the material about indigenous Americans, which is where it should be mentioned and a reference provided. Unfortunately, none of the "Indigenous Americans" material is referenced at all, and some of it is questionable. The Inuit pictures are nice, but they only apply to unreferenced material. Probably the picture of bannock should be at the top, since the other two pictures are pretty peripheral to the article. Lou Sander (talk) 21:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've redone the Indigenous Americans section so that it's now fully sourced. I'm not sure that the image of the bannock should be near the top. It's only representive of one style of Inuit bannock and may look nothing like Scottish bannock, First Nations bannock or even Inuit bannock made in a different area of Canada. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 00:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good work on redoing the section! VERY good work, in fact. I've looked for bannock pictures all over the place, but haven't found very many at all, and not a single one that's free of copyright. They are all round and fairly flat, though. Since "bannock" can be almost any sort of round, flat bread, I'm thinking that the Inuit bannock would be as good an illustration as any. (I thought of ordering a Selkirk Bannock online, then taking a picture of it for Wikipedia. But they are expensive, and the whole deal would probably cost $30 or more to buy and have shipped to the U.S.) Lou Sander (talk) 02:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that if they were available we could get pictures of dozens of different types of bannock. The Selkirk type looks more like a fruit cake than bannock though. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)


 * And thinking of that. I used one of the online articles to mention it, which also gives a picture of a Selkirk Bannock. By the way Sir Walter Scott is a redirect to Walter Scott.


 * ""Bannock" is an Old English word of Celtic origin. It may have been the first word used to describe bread, as long ago as the fifth century A.D."
 * This statement seems to me to be very unlikely. According to the article on bread, it "is one of the oldest prepared foods, dating back to the Neolithic era," so probably from at least 2,000 BC. It would seem strange, then, if there wasn't a word for it until after 400 AD. I'm aware that this sentence is referenced, and I'm no authority, so I don't feel confident removing it without further research, but does anyone know better?Robhogg (talk) 18:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's hard to find documentation from 2000 BC, since there was very little literacy then, and I don't know how many documents have survived 3,000 years. What you see as the oldest date in an etymology is the oldest attested date. --Thnidu (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Fort Sumner?

 * ''ome sources indicate that bannock was unknown in North America until the 19th century when it was created by the Navajo who were incarcerated at Fort Sumner,[8] while others indicate that it came from a Scottish source.

Nope, I don't know where to look for a cite, but bannock was an established foodstuff among peoples touched by the Hudson's Bay Company and North West Company long before the Americans got anywhere near Navajo territory....very sure about this, but I'd have to poke around HBC-related sites/sources to find out the first procvenance; my guess is not long after the company was founded - in 1670....Skookum1 (talk) 16:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't take much imagination to think that ANY people might have made what is now called bannock. From the article: "current usage can apply the word to any large, round article baked or cooked from grain." Lou Sander (talk) 13:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC

Bannock and the Hudson's Bay Company
I worked for the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC)on North Baffin Island in the late 1970s and early 1980s, and had bannock numerous times prepared by Inuit women. They will make it several times a day and serve it with tea and Carnation condensed milk. While traveling on the sea ice, stopping for tea and bannock assumes almost ritual importance.

Even at that late stage of the company's history, many of the HBC Northern Stores division's employees were Scots. Shetlanders in particular adapted easily to the harsh, Spartan conditions. This was the case for much of the company's history. It seems very likely to me that the Inuit, along with other North American native peoples, would have learned to make this bread from Scottish HBC employees, using the flour, salt, lard, etc. that was sold in the company stores. I still make it to this day. It goes down very nicely with a cup of tea.

--Mgts24 (talk) 22:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Not Native American
While fry bread might resemble bannock, it is not of Scottish origin. It's fine to leave the fry bread link, but do we really need all of these sections and categories? Especially sine pre-Columbian fry bread is hypothetical. I feel like all of this should be moved to the Fry Bread page. Artheartsoul1 (talk) 08:12, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Etymology
According to my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the word bannock is derived from the Old English bannuc, perhaps from Celtic. I am unaware of a Latin word panicium, but the Oxford Elementary Latin Dictionary gives panicum (without the second i), English panic grass, a form of millet. FunkyCanute (talk) 13:43, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
 * My full Oxford English Dictionary just says: "Gaelic bannach, ? < Latin pānicium < pānis bread." but that's the second edition. They haven't updated the entry yet for the third edition, so they might have further research to publish.  In particular, Oxforddictionariesonline says: "Old English bannuc, of Celtic origin; related to Welsh ban, Breton bannac'h, banne, and Cornish banna 'a drop'".  The American Heritage Dictionary says: " Middle English bannok, from Old English bannuc, of Celtic origin". Collins copies Oxford Online.  Merriam-Webster is similar to AHD.  Wiktionary has an entry for panicium.    D b f i r s   18:50, 31 March 2016 (UTC)