Talk:Baqa'a Valley

Material requiring sourcing
The following statement that were re-inserted into the article are not supported by the sources given for them. If you wish to re-introduce this material, you need to find a source for it:
 * "The existence of the Palestinian villages is endangered by the continuing expansion of the settlements Givat Harsina and Kiryat Arba." (source given : http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel/hebron-v2.pdf)
 * Background information per WP:OBVIOUS, supported by the following text. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "Settlers continuously create new outposts around the settlements and also east from Route 60." - no source given
 * Background information per WP:OBVIOUS, supported by the following text. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * WP:OBVIOUSis an essay about style guidelines, and it does not say you can put stuff that seems obvious to you without a source. Quite to the contrary, it explains that even things that seem obviosu to you need to be spelled out. In contrast WP:V is Wikipedia policy, and it requires that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation'. The source you provided do not support the statements I removed. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "Under the pretext of security concerns Palestinians are expelled from their lands, agricultural fields and watersystems destroyed by settlers and army" (source given : http://www.poica.org/details.php?Article=1873 - not a reliable source, in any case)
 * Accidentally, you joined this discussion, where User:Brewcrewer issued this point and happened to have the same view. While not neutral, POICA is a reliable source. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * That discussion did not conclude that POICA is a reliable source, but that is really a side issue, as the POICA source you provided does not say what you claim. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "Access is controlled by checkpoints, roadblocks, earthmounds and other barriers, and the roads function de facto as a separation barrier between the Hebron area and the rest of the West Bank" - source given is a map of the Hebron Governorate (http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_the_closure_map_2011_12_21_hebron.pdf), which says nothing of the kind. Appears to be original research using the map--Brad Dyer (talk) 15:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
 * OCHA is a reliable source. The map clearly supports the stated. Further, you deleted twice videos from a reliable source. YouTube pages are not per definition unreliable. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)


 * OCHA might be a reliable source, but the OCHA map you provided as a source does not say anything like 'the roads function de facto as a separation barrier between the Hebron area and the rest of the West Bank' - that appears  to be your personal research - looking at the map and drawing conclusions form it. That it not allowed. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violations
This section: "In addition to land confiscated specifically for the building of Road 60, the Israeli authorities have designated an additional "buffer zone" of 180 meters on either side of the road, upon which Palestinians have been forbidden to build on their own land." is a cut-and-paste copyright violation of the source (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=202036). It needs to be re-written if it is to be included.

--Brad Dyer (talk) 15:14, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Deleting a citation under the false flag of copyright violation is plain disruptive editing. --Wickey-nl (talk) 12:04, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
 * There is nothing false about my claim- it is a straight cut-and-paste copyright violation of the source (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=202036). Copyright violations are not allowed. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I would suggest you reworked the language, if you think it is a copy-right violation. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:18, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not how this works. You can't insert a copyright violation and ask that others rewrite it. Brad Dyer (talk) 17:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Dubious templates
The bizar Coat-rack template is already Brad Dyer's second attempt to eliminate this article, after the merge template. The fact that a brand-new article still does not include certain subjects does not justify to label it as a coat-rack or a fork. --Wickey-nl (talk) 09:01, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that a brand new article supposedly about a geographical feature - a valley - has virtually no geographical information in it - nothing about topology, geology, climate etc.. - but is 80% dedicated to detailing the issues related to Israeli occupation, is actually the best evidence that this is a coat rack. If in the future it actually starts resembling an article about a valley, the tag can be removed. Brad Dyer (talk) 16:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I understand: the land grab *is* the most important issue at the moment. The article should reflect that, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:12, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * You've just re-inserted, without discussion, copyright violations and statements that were challenged that do not have a source. Both of these are pretty serious policy violations. Brad Dyer (talk) 17:16, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Material requiring sourcing - still not resolved
all the material I highlighted as requiring sourcing in the section above still are not adequately sourced. Simply re-inserting them, without proper sources, is not a solution. Obviously I have not been able to convince you to provide sources so we are at an impasse- how do you suggest we resolve this? Brad Dyer (talk) 16:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I think all is sufficiently sourced. The fact that you do not accept certain sources is another question. --Wickey-nl (talk) 16:04, 9 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It is not sourced. For example, what is the source for the following statement: " Access is controlled by checkpoints, roadblocks, earthmounds and other barriers, and the roads function de facto as a separation barrier between the Hebron area and the rest of the West Bank", or this one, tagged with : "Palestinians are also prevented from using Route 60 by settler violence" ? Brad Dyer (talk) 16:19, 9 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The OCHA map clearly shows that the Palestinian villages are surrounded by roadblocks, earthmounds, and the whole Valley infected by settlement built-up. The text should be changed into Access to the Palestinian villages is controlled ..., though.


 * http://www.cpt.org/cptnet/2004/01/21/hebron-settlers-seize-2000-dunams-palestinian-farmland-around-givat-ha-harsina reads: Settlers are erecting the new fence about four hundred meters (about one quarter of a mile) downhill from the settlement's current fence line. ... Over these swaths they are laying down several thousand meters of new high so called "security fences" equipped with electronic sensors. ... If and when the two settlements' separate fencing systems are further extended to a point where they actually connect, a southern West Bank version of the more than one hundred mile "annexation wall" being rushed to completion in the northern West Bank will become a sudden reality around Kiryat Arba and Harsina.


 * As for the settler violence on Route 60, I am sure it is fact, even when the sources yet are not collected.


 * I am sure you are aware that the existence of the Palestinian villages in the Baqa'a Valley is endangered without any doubt. You only want to catch me on formal grounds. --Wickey-nl (talk) 08:45, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for removing the unsourced statement that 'and the roads function de facto as a separation barrier between the Hebron area and the rest of the West Bank". that was one of the main problems with that text. I think there are still a number of unsourced statements in that section, but for now I will let it stand. As to 'the settler violence on Route 60', it does not matter what you or I are :"sure" of - we need sources that state it. Since you concde  -that 'sources yet are not collected' - are you going to remove the unsourced statement, or do you want me to do it? Brad Dyer (talk) 16:44, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

access to Palestinian villages in the Baqa'a Valley is hampered by barriers
This statement is sourced to "HEBRON: Settlers seize 2000 dunams of Palestinian farmland around Givat HaHarsina" - http://www.cpt.org/cptnet/2004/01/21/hebron-settlers-seize-2000-dunams-palestinian-farmland-around-givat-ha-harsina, but I could not find support for it in the source. Please point out what it is based on. Brad Dyer (talk) 18:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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neutral point of view issues in body section
In the body section, there are currently multiple sentences which need to be adjusted to fit wikipedia style to meet NPOV. The specific sentences have adjectives and future looking statements. Some recommendations: instead of saying a settlement is "massive", provide the size of the settlement, and sources to demonstrate the size and change in size. If experts from either side (and even better if both sides) have statements that can be quoted, use these as well. This applied to statements about future dangers to the community, etc. Fileyfood500 (talk) 21:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)