Talk:Bar and bat mitzvah/Archive 1

This is because women were not considered obliged to obey the same laws as men;
Nu? What were these differences that were so big that when a girl attained her majority she had no obligations worthy of notice? Were women just supposed to obey some man? --Ed Poor


 * In ancient Jewish society, women's first duties were to their family, and second to the religion. They were required to obey the negative commandments (the don'ts), but not the the positive requirements (attend to this, perform this ritual, etc).  In addition to this, there's a prohibition against "ritual uncleanliness", which is whenever blood is flowing freely from someone, whether from a cut or from menstration.  Women, for this reason, find it extremely difficult to participate in Jewish religious life, which is the civic center of ancient societies.  In other words, yes.&mdash;Daelin 12:30, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rubbish. Women are bound to all commandments apart from the time-bound positive ones (e.g. shaking of the Lulav/Four Species on Sukkot). Apart from that, there are a couple typically female commandments, which no male can fullfil. I find Daelin's views a simplification. JFW | T@lk  20:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Keyword: "are". I was speaking of Judiasm circa 400 BC, as I noted by starting off with "In ancient Jewish society," and the past tense (which I goofed in the middle).&mdash;Daelin 23:54, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Makes no difference. What's your evidence that they were not previously bound to the commandments? JFW | T@lk  06:49, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * My source is a course in the History of Women in Western Civilization, taught by a history professor who is highly respected at my college. I have just e-mailed them asking for specific sources.  I'll let you know what I find out.  I expect a reply within the week.&mdash;Daelin 08:38, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good, thank you. JFW | T@lk  09:17, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think some of this info is inaccurate. (I speak from an Orthodox perspective, recognizing that others disagree but hoping that we can sort this out in a mutually agreeable fashion in this forum.) Women are obligated in all commandments except those that are time-bound - and even there, (a) there are many exceptions and (b) women are [permitted] to fulfill those commandments (and, in Ashkenazic tradition, even recite the blessing associated with those commandments).

The difference may result from the fact that women are not allowed to read from the Torah or lead prayer services. This is the result of two factors - the Talmud's dictum that the (singing) voice of a woman is sexually suggestive (and thus should not be heard by men) and the more general idea of modesty that limits when it is appropriate for a woman to get up in front of a male audience. I'm not sure what is meant by "Some believe that a woman's voice distracts men from fulfilling their obligation in a pious spirit." but it may be related to my point. AviGilChaitovsky 17:42, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Boys/Girls
Given that traditionally the Bar Mitzva involved more of a concrete ceremony than the Bat Mitzva, is it strange that this article has more about girls than boys? chaitov 14:43, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I would say yes, but probably you already suggest this answer in your question ;-) gidonb  14:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC) This is, however, just like rest of Wikipedia: The quantity of materials is positively associated with the intensity of controversies.  gidonb  15:11, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

mix of terms
it talks about "Mitzvah", and then switches to "Mitzvot" - is that a typo or intentional? "The collective term for Bar and Bat Mitzvot is B'nai Mitzvah." (80.109.255.5 20:41, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC))

age and extent of tradition
This radio piece which I just heard makes the claim that the biblical age of adulthood is 20, not 13, and that what we think of as the bar mitzvah tradition is an American invention (though, they didn't say what were the traditions before that) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4655222


 * I never heard this radio piece, and radio is hardly a stellar source, but there is more then one majority age. 12 or 13 is for the commandments. 20 makes someone eligable for the death penalty. 67.165.96.26 22:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * 20 is also the age at which someone was eligible for military service, hence the fact that census data usually give only the numbers of men 20 years and older.

convert
the difference between young jews and converts in b'nai mitzvah should be included
 * There isn't one. Someone can not convert until they reach the age of majority. If a child was converted by his parents then he has a normal bar mitzvah just like anyone else. (Unless he chooses to reject his conversion, which is his right, upon reaching majority, in which case he is no longer jewish, so there is no bar mitzvah.) 67.165.96.26 22:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

This article needs to be reorganized
Currently, the description of the B'nai Mitzvah celebration is in the boys section (i.e. what is usually done during the celebration, reading the Torah, Haftora, etc.), while the "confusion" over terminology is under the girls section. This is common to both Bar and Bat Mitzvot, so I think those parts should be removed, and perhaps the Boys and Girls section could just be separated into one section that discusses gender issues in Bar/Bat Mitzvot. Also, I take issue with the claim that it is incorrect to use the term "Bar Mitzvah" or "Bat Mitzvah" as the name of the event. Sorry, that's extremely common usage of the term, more common than its correct term, and it's a pain to constantly have to refer to the "Bar Mitzvah celebration" as the event. Personally, I'd welcome someone with a background in Jewish Gender studies to elaborate a bit more on when the Bat Mitzvah celebration came about. And, even if a Jew automatically joins the adult Jewish community based on age, I think there's not enough emphasis put on the high place the ceremony holds in the mind of most observant/practicing Jews. I added the sentence about older women performing the ceremony and I think my sentence is a bit weak, but it really is important to note that women were commonly blocked from performing the ceremony until around 20 years ago, or less. The reclaiming of this ritual should be addressed, that's all I'm saying. FunnyYetTasty 09:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, but you have a fundamental mistake. There IS NO RITUAL, so there is nothing to block women from. You can do anything at all that you want. Bar Mitzvah is automatic upon reaching the age. The only "ritual" that there is, is not even a ritual. The child will lead the prayers or read from the torah to show that now he is an adult and is alowed to do so (or to prove that he knows how). It's not a ritual, it's exactly the same thing that any adult will do. The only thing special is that it's the childs first time. As far as women go there is no specific thing that adult women do publically, so there is no specific thing for a Bat Mitvah to do either. However depending on the comunity adult women might do this or that (teach a class for example) so a Bat Mitzvah will do the same. In some places women will even read from the torah in front or men, so the child will do the same. Why people think that women have to be EXACTLY like men I will never understand. Even if there is something "better" about how women do something, no that's not good - lets do it like the men, it might be "worse" but it's how the men do it, so we need to copy it. Take some pride in your gender! 67.165.96.26 22:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * "I think there's not enough emphasis put on the high place the ceremony holds in the mind of most observant/practicing Jews." Actually, the ceremony (and associated celebration) have less of a hold on the folk you mentioned. Parents who turn it into a 3-ring circus with CNN coverage are hardly interested in the religious aspects of the thing.B00P 09:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Added Humanist section
Added a section on what humanist jews do. Someone should also note the tradition of the second bar mitzvah - at age 83?

With regard to bat mitzvah, it has been a tradition in Reform Judaism for at least 30 years (personal experience). There was one Orthodox rabbi who's daughters had the ceremony - this is what started the trend in Orthodoxy, but I don't remember his name.

From a sociological perspective, females have a biological life event that marks their passage into adulthood. Males do not (or at least, not one they are going to tell their mother about). FiveRings 01:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC) (date will be wrong)

Dhall...
Your recent additions are entirely from an Orthodox viewpoint, and do not consider either Wikipedia style (G-d, for example) or the conventions of this page ("Bar Mitzvah" versus "Bar Mitzvah celebration". They also need references.  Please re-edit.  FiveRings 01:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Specious rationale
I have removed a parenthetical phrase that purports to explain why most Orthodox do not have girls lead the service.
 * "(because her singing voice may not be heard by males)"

Gimme a break. That is most assuredly not the reason and would fly in the face of Exodus 15:20-21 and Judges 5:2-31.

There is no baleful consequence deriving from hearing a female voice (assuming it's on key).

Many religious customs (in all religions) may appear to be arbitrary, but it is not necessary to invent fantastic "reasons" to explain them. Modern synagogue practice ultimately derives from how things were done in the Second Temple. Back then, various conditions could make a person temporarily (or, rarely, permanently) "ritually unclean" and thus unable to participate. One such temporary condition would occur when a woman was menstruating. Over the years this became expanded to the point where a woman did not lead a service whether having her period or not. However there is no biblical injunction on this point. (Jews grant no validity to Timothy 2:11-12.) Nowadays a girl whose period coincided with her Bat Mitzvah ceremony could merely reschedule the latter.

Synagogues are run on Congregationalist, not Episcopal, lines. If the rules of Synagogue A are not to one's liking, try Synagogue B down the street.B00P 09:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Ritual cleanliness has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is the issue of kavod ha-tzibur, on the grounds of which women do not participate actively in most synagogue rituals. There is a law banning men listening to a woman's singing voice. Talmud Berachot, cited by Orach Chayim, forbids kol isha and equates it with watching a woman who is inappropriately attired. It is not limited to the synagogue. JFW | T@lk  10:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * B00P: Just because you want to pick and choose what laws you want to follow, doesn't also mean the rules don't exist.
 * And as a side note, in the time of the temples there was NOTHING AT ALL done for either a Bar, or Bat Miztvah! And there wasn't even a service to lead in those days either! (At least by a layperson, and even a Kohen had to be 20.) So you should be the one to stop inventing reasons for things. 67.165.96.26 19:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

My dear 67, you are reading things into what I wrote that aren't there. Not only didn't I mention B'nai Mitzvot, I said nothing about leading anything, The word I used was "participate." Anyone in a state of ritual uncleanliness would not be allowed into the Temple at all until the condition had been removed. How this resulted in a personal attack on me is, shall we say, a bit bizarre.

As for JFW, you will note tht I confined myself to mentioning biblical passages. And as a follow-up, I suggest that neither Moses nor Barak were any the worse for the experience. It would also follow that under your reading, men should never listen to the radio, watch television, see a show, or even go to services if women are present and joining in on the sung prayers. It is clear that you and I have very different perspectives on some very fundamental issues. So before this degenerates into posturing and name-calling, I will merely state that I find your views excessive and not in line with what I was taught. I wish you (and 67) well.B00P 07:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You are simply unfamiliar with the way Orthodox/Haredi Judaism looks at the issue. Forget what you've been taught, there is always time to learn. Barak was (according to the Oral Law) Deborah's husband, so the issue does not arise. Moses was Miriam's brother, and provided he was close enough to listen it was his sister. Haredi Jews indeed no not watch TV, many avoid the radio and few go to see shows. Really, see Haredi Judaism. JFW | T@lk  08:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization
Is it proper to capitalize Bar/Bat/B'nai/B'not Mitzvah? It's capitalized in the article, and I'm pretty sure that's correct, but it would be nice to know if there's any sort of authoritative source on the matter, as I've seen it both ways, as well as a few that capitalize the word Mitzvah but not Bar/Bat/B'nai/B'not.

24.143.140.104 19:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point. it is completely incorrect to capitalize bar mitzva(h) in English. Only proper nouns are capitalized. Bar mitzva means (age of) majority and is a concept, not a proper noun. --Redaktor (talk) 11:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation
How to pronounce? I think this is [ בְּנֵי־מִצְוָה  bənēy mitzwāh]. richtik? --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 12:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Title of page
Why is this page titled "B'nai Mitzvah" if "Bar Mitzvah" is used throughout? I propose it be moved to Bar Mitzvah because someone was obviously just trying to make a point when thney moved the page here. →   J @  red   23:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand your point, and sympathise to a great degree - it does seem odd to put this article under a title which is not used (at least in my neck of the woods) nearly as much as Bar/Bat Mizvah. However, it does make sense to deal with Bar Mizvah and Bat Mitzvah in the same article, so putting it under B'nai Mitzvah does seem like a good way of achieving that. Since both Bar Mitvah and Bat Mitzvah redirect here, I don't think it's a problem (although could still cause a little confusion). Nomist 15:33, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but so then why is the page under the plural form? No other pages in the Wikipedia database are allowed to be put into plural because it just wouldn't make sense, so why should this one? →   J  @  red   16:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I think they are vastly different in many respect and deserve their own pages under their own names. Apart from in very egalitarian communities, nowhere is there a fuss about the girls reading from the Torah, learning to put on tefillin etc. JFW | T@lk  19:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, from a non-egal perspective it must jar a bit to see Bar and Bat all lumped together as if they are equivalent. I happen to think that Bar and Bat ought to be equivalent, but it's not NPOV to lump them together in this way. I'm happy to split the article into two. Nomist 12:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Split. Definitely. Bar and Bat Mitswa are quite special topics. gidonb 13:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Split.&mdash;msh210 ℠ 19:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's time to split the articles, it was some time back when someone was trying to push an "egalitarian" POV. IZAK 08:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What is doing on this page? Completelt irrelevant.&mdash;msh210 ℠ 19:06, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi msh: (1) The high-point of any B'nai Mitzvah religious "right of passage" celebration to Jewish adulthood is for the child to study to chant sections of, or the entire, Torah reading from that week's Parsha (Torah portion) read in synagogue on the Shabbat closest to their 13th birthday. Indeed, the date and time of one's Bar Mitzvah celebration on Shabbat is always derived from the weekly Torah portion (Parsha) on which the Bar Mitzvah will be celebrated. Question: "When is/was your Bar Mitzvah?" Answer: "On parshas XYZ!" (2) The template is at the bottom of the B'nai Mitzvah article's page, so essentially it's part of the "See also" section which is a legitimate way of connecting related and connected topics on an article. (3) If a reader finds the  to be "too intrusive" then any reader is free to click "Hide" on the top right section of the template's heading which shrinks it to an unobtrusive one liner. Finally, (4) the  is presently diligently updated weekly by User:Dauster early each Sunday so that any readers may learn more about the weekly Parsha. User:Dauster summarizes each week's Parsha and adds some interesting graphics which surely adds life and color to a page that may gain the attention of readers who don't know much about this subject and may want to learn more. Please refer all further comments and discussions to one centralized location at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism Thank you. IZAK 08:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Why Bnai and not Bnei?
Bnei, with an E vowel, is the possessive (or is it genitive? :) plural form of Ben (son). Why does it appear with an A here? In modern Hebrew it is definitely with an E. It doesn't even seem to me like a Hasidic pronunciation, but, it appears more common on the web with A than E, so maybe it is?

Looking at another term, "Bnei Yisrael", the E variant wins (Google: E[] vs. A []. Though, looking for "Bnei Israel" vs "Bnai Israel", the A wins (but not by such a large margin...) Anyway, a mystery to me. ehudshapira 23:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Pubic hair
This is a little-known but 100% true commandment in Judaism - a boy or girl must have at least two pubic hairs before they can officially become Bar (or Bat) Mitzvah. As ridiculous as this sounds, this is absolutley true - ask a Rabbi.

Anyway, as this is actually a law that MUST be met before a boy or girl can hallachacly come of age, I think it is pretty necessary to be included in the article - I will leave it up to a more experienced wikier than I to add the information in, in an appropriate place in the article.--GurTheFred 10:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Son of the commandment"
I have replaced this very literal translation with a more meaningful translation which preserves the meaning of the untranslatable Hebrew idiom "bar-" / "ben-". For example, "ben adam" means "a person;" i.e. someone in the category of adam, and "bnei bakar" means "cattle," i.e. things in the category of bakar. --Eliyak T · C 14:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought the name was aramaic, not hebrew? FiveRings 16:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That is true. In Aramaic, "bar" has the same meaning and function as "ben" does in Hebrew. Example: "bar katala" - "one to whom the death penalty applies." --Eliyak T · C 19:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Authorized by Scripture
I saw nothing about where in the Hebrew scriptures where the Bar Mitzvah is described. Someone with more information than me care to include the source for this ritual? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.107.67.126 (talk) 02:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

''If you take a look in a Mikras Gedolas (Torah with many commentators), in the Parsha Vayishlach, where it describes the story of Dinah, you will find there the expression "ish" (pronounced eesh) to describe Shimon and Levi. The m'farshim (commentators) there demonstrate that they were 13 and they further comment that this is the youngest age for which we find the use of the word "ish", i.e. man, as in an adult male. This is the scriptual basis for which the age of Bar Mitzvah is 13. You can find further discussion of this and the age of adulthood in general, in the Gemora Sanhedrin, Perek Ben Sore u'Moreh.''Mcnelson (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I would also recommend looking at this source. Happy138 (talk) 16:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Source for White House Greeting?
The current (as of 02/05/07) White House web page does not mention B'nai Mitzvah celebrations as a valid event for which one can request a presidential greeting. Can anybody come up with a source? (Also, wouldn't there be an issue with the Establishment Clause?) --ThorstenNY 20:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing it there, along with other stuff, but it's gone. I can belive some options were removed as a cost-cutting measure. No reason to keep the info if it's wrong. FiveRings 20:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Brit milah
An an article in the Australian paper The Age October 2006 spoke about a boy's Brit milah in the lead up to his Bar Mitzvah. I assumed from the newspaper article that these two things are related in some way, but I got no sense of that from this article's text. To quote parts from the article it said:


 * A boy on the verge of his bar mitzvah was told that he wasn't properly circumcised and therefore wasn't Jewish. ...
 * In accordance with Jewish practice, the boy was circumcised when he was eight days old. It was done in hospital by a Jewish doctor in the presence of a rabbi. ...
 * Rabbi Gutnick said they noticed the incomplete circumcision as they prepared to take a drop of blood from the boy's penis to symbolise his Orthodox conversion. They called a mohel (ritual circumciser) who confirmed that it needed to be done again.

If his mother is converted, and the boy was circumcised at the right age, why does the boy need to go through Brit milah to symbolise his Orthodox conversion? Is this a normal part of Bar Mitzvah? If so, can someone who knows more about it add it to the article?

Thanks.

Jarich 12:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This is definitely NOT a part of a normal Bar Matzvah. What I'm guessing happened is that the mother didn't have an orthodox conversion (or was converted after she gave birth), so the child wasn't considered jewish by orthodox law. The response to that (also happens at brisses) is to convert the child directly, which is what drawing the drop of blood was about. The rest is just nitpicking - it would never have even been noticed if the child had been born jewish. (I knew someone who this happened to - he traveled to Israel to have his bar mitzvah at the wall, and was refused permission because his mother was a non-orthodox convert). FiveRings 18:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Orthodox Bat Mitzvot
The paragraph

''the public celebration of a girl becoming Bat Mitzvah has made strong inway in Modern Orthodox Judaism and in some elements of Haredi Judaism, especially Chabad-Lubavitch. In these congregations women do not read from the Torah or lead prayer services. Occasionally, Orthodox girls will lecture on a Jewish topic to mark their coming of age, learn a book of Tanakh, recite the verses from other texts (such as the Book of Esther or the Book of Psalms) or prayers from the siddur.''

is slightly incorrect. In the more orthodox branches of Judaism, a girl may only read text to which there is no mention of God's name. This eliminates the Psalms, Torah and Haftara and four of the Megillot, leaving only one book - Esther. (I have seen this done before). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.50.236.154 (talk • contribs).

The words especially Chabad-Lubavitch has been removed. Being familiar with this group, I concur. There are some Chabad communities that might have a public gathering for a Bat-Mitzvah, but in general they limit it to a smaller women only gathering. Thus the stress of especially Chabad-Lubavitch is most probably not deserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob613 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

tefillin
Why is there no mention of putting on tefillin? --Gilabrand 09:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There should be. Feel free to write a paragraph.--DLand TALK 11:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

B'nai Mitzvah does not define the term "B'nai Mitzvah"
The article B'nai Mitzvah does not clearly define the meaning of the term "B'nai Mitzvah". While I believe that it is implied in the text of the article, I'm not positive that my guess is right. Let's add a clear definition of the term for those who need it. Thanks. -- 201.19.77.39 15:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have moved the article to a better title. "B'nai Mitzvah" is not really a term which is used at all. --Eliyak T · C 18:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Correct name of this article & time to think of a split
The correct Wikified name of this article is Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah. All redirects now go to that name. The previous name of "Bar Mitzvah / Bat Mitzvah" did not meet the criteria of Wikipedia's naming conventions for article headings. See Manual of Style: "Special characters such as the slash (/), plus sign (+), curly brackets ({ }) and square brackets ([ ]) are avoided; the ampersand (&) is replaced by and, unless it is part of a formal name." And in this case the "/" slash sign is in no way part of the name for Bar Mitzvah vis-à-vis Bat Mitzvah if they are to remain as two subjects under one heading. In fact, it may be an excellent idea to split the two at this time, because (a) the ritual of Bar Mitzvah was exclusively reserved for boys turning 13 in all of Jewish history for over two thousand years, whereas (b) the notion of a Bat Mitzvah ceremony for girls was created by about fifty years ago by Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan (1881 - 1983) the founder of Reconstructionist Judaism, indeed his daughter was the first girl to celebrate the modern Bat Mitzvah ceremony. (c) Therefore, members of the different Jewish denominations do not share the same views about Bat Mitzvahs for girls but they all celebrate Bar Mitzvahs for boys. (d) Indeed they may even be offended that the two topics are given equality in any way. (e) By now there is a lot of information in the article about the history of both ceremonies to allow for the creation of two separate articles. Thank you, IZAK 08:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * WRT the split, from the article itself: "According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the term "Bar Mizwah...in the sense now used...can not be clearly traced earlier than the fourteenth century," This is certainly not "all of Jewish history" (which certainly extends for more than "two thousand years"!?). The other comments (b, c, d) are similarly inaccurate. FiveRings 19:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've changed the article name to something much more natural sounding in my opnion (From Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah  ---> Bar and Bat Mitzvah), I did a Google search to confirm my belief you would say it the other way and that is the result I got.  I personally believe they should be in the same article, they are not the same, but if they were in seperate articles, there would be a lot of overlap, AND in egalitarian Jewish communties (Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist), which make up a large porportion of Jews, they are almost indentical. Epson291 (talk) 05:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering about the title's capitalization, and have created a redirect for the lower-case spelling. Why are these terms treated as proper nouns? --Rich Janis (talk) 08:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just the way it is spelled. A lot of words in religious context are written like this (i.e., Jewish ones like Torah, Tanach, and Christian or general ones like Bible, Mass and Communion.  It is a specific "thing." Epson291 (talk) 10:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Law intrest
Why is there a tag for wikiproject law? I may be a conservative Jew in seventh grade (getting ready for the big day), but I really don't think this article has anything to do with law. I'd appreciate it if someone could second my motion and remove the law WP template. Mm40 (talk) 19:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably because the bar/bat mitzvah is the age of majority. Let it stay. --Eliyak T · C 22:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

B'nei mitzvah
I'm not sure if I'm spelling it right, but when a boy and a girl both have their mitzvahs in the same ceremony, isn't it called a b'nay mitzvah?
 * Yes, but "bnei mitsvah" is simply the plural for "bar mitsvah"; i.e., it corresponds to either multiple boys or any mixed group (since the masculine is used by default in the case of mixed-gender groups). "Bnot mitsvah" is the plural for "Bat mitsvah"; since these are the simple Hebrew plurals for "sons" and "daughters," it is probably best viewed as a grammatical issue and probably doesn't warrant anything more than a cursory mention.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.68.72.108 (talk) 05:20, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it'd be more appropriate to entitle the article, "Bnei Mitzvah" (בְּנֵי מִצְוָה, cf. בר מצוה) because it has no disjunction and is the plural of "Bar and Bat Mitzvah"; NB: instead of a page called Jew and Jewess, ours is called Jews like יהודים (Yehudim). I think it is more practical to use the globally-gendered plural than the current disjoined mix of English and Hebrew. Additionally, the English language WP:GOOGLETEST for "bnei mitzvah", http://www.google.com/search?q=bnei+mitzvah&lr=lang_en, yields over eight million results so using it as an English encyclopaedic label should be entirely appropriate. Warmest Regards, :)—thecurran Speak your mind my past 06:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Orthodox orientation
The article presents the Orthodox practice as normative, and notes deviations from that practice for non-Orthodox denominations. Given that Orthodoxy is a minority movement in Judaism, I have altered the article to reflect non-Orthodox practice as the standard, with Orthodox traditions noted afterwards as the exception. Rejewvenator (talk) 16:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's policy is to not get involved in deciding which movement should be classified as standard.
 * --  --   --   03:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. At the section titled "Aliyah to the Torah", Torah readings for Bat Mitzvah girls are not mentioned at the beginning of the section, since they are not mentioned in the Jewish Encyclopedia article quoted.
 * --  --   --   03:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Bas mitzvah
It is possible, when reading the New York Times, to encounter "bas mitzvah", as well as "bat mitzvah". On one occasion, a Metro Diary entry addressed the difference: see http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/nyregion/metropolitan-diary-650960.html?scp=8&sq=%22bas%20mitzvah%22&st=cse

However, not being Jewish and having seen a mistake or two in print, I don't trust this enough as a source to cite it and edit the Wikipedia entry accordingly.

Would someone please add a reliable explanation of 'bas' and 'bat' usage? Publius3 (talk) 23:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In the Hebrew alphabet "s" and "t" are basically the same letter -- well one of the "s"s anyways. In some ethnic backgrounds it's always read as an "s" and in others it's read as a "s" in some words and a "t" in others where there's an extra dot. You'll see the same thing with Shabbat, which is often pronounced Shabbas, though I've never seen it written that way.


 * This seems like an problem endemic to discussing words which come from other languages, or at least ones which span multiple ethnic subgroups. There's not much to say about it or you would be noting the same points over and over again for every word. 87.127.95.198 (talk) 02:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It has to do with the differences between Ashkenazic and  Sephardic Hebrew dialects.  Here's and article that explains it a bit more. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 02:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Wgungfu, and Marty Goldberg

Hebrew (Ivrit) has many letters that carry the sounds "T" and "S".

"T" can be written with a letter "Tet" or a letter "Tav". The latter can be pronounced "T" or "S" depending on the word, but the "S" pronunciation of "Tav" (never of "Tet") is peculiar to Ashkenazim, not to Sephardim or to modern Ivrit.

The sibilant "S" can be written with a letter "Sin" (which can also be read as "Sh" depending on the word) or with a letter "Samekh". It is rather like English, there "C" can be hard like "K" or soft like "S". Hebrew is on a cusp area of consonant shift. Apart from the examples given, there is Qof and Kaf ("K" for Ashkenazim) but for Sephardim they (and Khet) are sounded slightly differently (although the distinction is now disappearing). "B" and "V" have the same letter (Bet and Vet), but "V" can also be written in some words with a "Vov". "P" and "F" (Pe and Fe) have the same letter. Many Arabs cannot pronounce the sound "F" that is why they refer to themselves as "Filistines", and that is why the English spelling of the ancient Semetic tribe is written with a "Ph" (Philistines). Conversely, peolple from the Philipine Islands cannot pronounce the sound "F", and refer to themselves as "Pilipinos".

For the non-Ivrit speaker, some of these letters carry a dot to help with pronunciation, but you will not see these pointers written for native Ivrit speakers. The biblical tribe of Simon was said not to be able to pronounce the sibilant "S", using "Sh" instead. Modern Ivrit follows the Sephardi pattern, so for example, "Sabbath" is pronounced "Shabbat", never "Shabbas".

The term Bas/Bat/Bar Mitzvah is explained thus. At age 13 a boy becomes "Bar Mitzvah" ("Son of the covenant", i.e. between God and Abraham) where "Bar" is Aramaic for "Son of....", it is not Ivrit. "Bat" is Ivrit ("Bas" is Ashkenazi) for "Daughter of....", but the "Bas/Bat Mitzvah" is a modern tradition to "Equalize" girls and boys, but in fact has nothing to do with Judaism. There is actually no "Bar/Bat" mitzvah ceremony at all, but there is a celebration. A Jewish boy automatically is "Bar Mitzvah" when he turns 13, and this is celebrated by "Calling him to the Torah", much like "Reading the lesson" in a Christian church. He cannot do this before he is "Bar Mitzvah", but on that occasion he is allowed to read from the Torah and the "Neveim" (Prophets) himself, a task that is usually performed by a Cantor (Khazan) or Rabbi. When this occurs, congregants to be honoured are "Called up" to witness the reading. Honourees could be celebrating a birth, marriage, anniversary or some civic or religious event. The Shabbat reading of the Torah is divided into 6 parts, the first going to a "Cohen". the second to a "Levi" the 3rd, 4th and 5th to an "Israelite". The 6th is called "Muftir", and has special significance, for it leads to the reading of a matching "Haftorah" passage from the "Neveim" (which, despite the name, is read from a book, not a Torah scroll). It is traditional for the "Bar Mitzvah" celebrant to read both Muftir and Haftorah, a few read the entire 6 Torah and Haftorah passages. Bas/Bat Mitzvah celebrants do not read the Torah or Haftorah, except in ""Reform" Synagogues. The New York times is not an authority on Judaism, or any other religion.

Hope this helps Historygypsy (talk) 02:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 26 May 2019

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Bar and bat mitzvah, per standard capitalization guidelines. bd2412 T 15:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Bar and Bat Mitzvah → Bar and Bat mitzvah – The question of the correct capitalization has been raised three times already on this talkpage. Since the last time, over half a year ago, capitalization in the article has been standardized, in accordance with my reply that based on the MoS the capital "M" should be a small "m". I now propose to move the page accordingly. Debresser (talk) 16:18, 26 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the b in bat also be lowercase as well? —  AjaxSmack  17:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I suppose it should. Debresser (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Here's an n-gram supporting lower-case, is the upper casing all due to book and article titling? Randy Kryn (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not only. There is a tendency to capitalize foreign words in American. The MoS specifically says not to do this. Debresser (talk) 16:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Support move to either Bar and Bat mitzvah or Bar and bat mitzvah. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 16:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Bar and bat mitzvah per the above and the standard capitalization guidelines.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:36, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Criticism
I support the new "criticism" paragraph, but it needs WP:CITE. I can produce references from Rav Shimon Schwab's "Collected Writings", but there may be a more generic source from rabbinic panels etc. JFW | T@lk  11:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is a source book for criticism against Bat Mitzvah celebrations http://israel613.com/books/BAT_MITZVAH-H.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobover1 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's an all-Hebrew pamphlet from a dubious website. Not much help on English Wikipedia. Jayjg (talk) 03:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

14-year-old?
It states in the Introduction part that In the Sephardic tradition, a boy may enter adulthood somewhat later, waiting until after his 14th birthday.

As a Sephardic Jew I can say none of my Sephardic friends waited until 14 years old of age. Even I was 13 years 1 month old... I think this statement should be removed once and for all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iggydarsa (talk • contribs) 16:51, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Literal meaning
If "bar" means "son" (as in many Jewish family), and "mitzvah" is a commandment, isn't the literal meaning of "bar mitzvah" 'son of the commandment(s)' rather than 'one to whom the commandments apply', which would seem to be a metaphorical extension. Likewise with "ba t " 'daughter'. Worth mentioning?

Also, the introductory sentence is cumbersome; I'll try breaking in two. 24.69.167.26 (talk) 16:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Girls become bat mitzvah at 13 years statement
I found and added a Reform reference for girls becoming Bat Mitzvah at 13. I haven't found a Conservative one so that still needs to be added. Unless we can find a reference for both. Kathyfeller (talk) 09:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Responsibilities?
The entry

At times the child boy or girl has to postpone if the father and mother think it necessary.

doesn't appear to be related to responsibilities and doesn't read well, either. Not having a clue regarding the topic at hand, I ask here instead. How does that bit work? 77.164.22.201 (talk) 21:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus for move. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:17, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Bar and Bat Mitzvah → Bnei Mitzvah —(בְּנֵי מִצְוָה, cf. WP:TITLE & בר מצוה) (-)Recognizability—a WP:GOOGLETEST for "bnei mitzvah" has 12.6k results but "bar and bat mitzvah" has 72.2k; only a fraction (.758) of an order of magnitude more.

(+)Naturalness—bnei mitzvah is the translingual, universal plural but bar and bat mitzvah is a disjoined mix of English and Hebrew with an inappropriate two-count constraint; bnei and bnot mitzvah avoids the count constraint but sounds less natural in both tongues.

(+)Precision—as both are similarly precise, WP:PRECISION prefers the concise one, bnei mitzvah.

(+)Conciseness—bnei mitzvah has two words or twelve characters but bar and bat mitzvah has four words or nineteen characters.

(+)WP:TITLE—instead of a page called Jew and Jewess, ours is called Jews like יהודים (Yehudim) @ the top of that page.

(+)WP:TITLE—avoiding "and" is preferred.-- Warmest Regards, :)—thecurran Speak your mind my past 07:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose your own results shows that the current title is more recognized, 72/12 = 6, so it is 600% more prominent. Further, "bar mitzvah" and "bat mitzvah" shows half a million hits, definitely more than the proposed title. Indeed, the inversion of the current title, "bat and bar mitzvah" shows an almost equal prominence to your proposed title. If you add it to the current title order, then the current format would garner 7x more hits than your proposed title. This doesn't even consider that they are frequently spelled without a space "batmitzvah" and "barmitzvah" which you are missing from your googletest. 64.229.103.105 (talk) 12:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose This is the English Wikipedia, not the Hebrew Wikipedia, and comprehensibility in English ultimately trumps these other considerations. Quite a few English speaking people will have heard of bar and bat mitzvahs but this new term is new to them. PatGallacher (talk) 13:11, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Most probably the page should be at plain Bar Mitzvah, "even though it's wrong", because "Bat Mitzvah" is not anywhere as well-known in English as the traditional male-only term. In any case, "Bnei Mitzvah" is not a common term for anything in English, so moving from a term that's only minimally surprising to one that's completely unknown is not in line with our practices for article titles. — Gavia immer (talk) 08:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Readability
The basic content of the first sentence seems to be: "In Judaism, a Bar Mitzvah or a Bat Mitzvah is a Jewish boy or girl who has come of age." The sheer volume of other material makes this quite difficult to see. Suggestion: make the simple statement first, then give all the linguistic detail.

[First sentence in full:

In Judaism, a Bar Mitzvah (Aramaic: בר מצוה, "one (m.) to whom the commandments apply"; if it were Hebrew it would be בן (ben) not בר (bar). בר is "son" in Aramaic, and בן (ben) is son in Hebrew.) or a Bat Mitzvah (בת מצוה, "one (f.) to whom the commandments apply;" Ashkenazi: Bas Mitzvah) (pl. B'nei Mitzvah) is a Jewish boy or girl who has come of age.] PeterBiddlecombe (talk) 07:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I had a go at fixing that… Ant (talk)

See reply to "Bas Mitzvah" above Historygypsy (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

History
History seems a bit vague, but recording of an actual ceremony did not occur until about 1500 ("The 16th century"). Here is an npov source http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_book_blitz/2005/05/bar_mitzvah_madness.html. There is probably something out there that is more scholarly.

Since it probably makes a difference, the rest of the world copied NY, the ceremony arrived in NY (same source) "in the late 19th century."

The fact of "reaching religious maturity" since biblical times is undisputed. What is disputed is the date of the actual formal ceremony, which was many centuries later. Student7 (talk) 20:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)